Saturn 1B - 1/23 Upscale

MaxQ said:

Pictures show the residual threads from the peel ply fabric that seem to persist from the cure. They stuck pretty good to the resin.

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The threads can be a pain. It helps to remove the peel ply while the epoxy is still a little green. If you remove the peel ply at the overlap very slowly, the threads will often just pull out of the epoxy. The idea is to pull left to right or right to left (not straight off), and sometimes one direction is better than the other. The last thing you can do is to take a sharp knife and carefully shave off the little ridge. That will cut off any embedded threads.

The ends of the tubes can just be cut off with a hacksaw. The carbide blades don't help much.

Jim

I acquired a decent hacksaw blade that looked like it would do the job on the CF main airframe.
So after taping off the correct dimension for this component with masking tape, I had at it.
Worked pretty good.

I will need a tube coupler for the forward section of the tube tank assembly which will plug into the main airframe.
Couldn't think of anything better than the mandrel which I formed the main airframe on, so taped that off and had at it with the hack saw as well.

It's a glove fit. Should add some strength to the joint.

I wanted to get a picture of the main components at this point of the build, and weigh them.

I don't have a very accurate scale, but the CF main airframe looks to be 1lb to 1.5 lb.
The tube tank assembly with the eight tanks, internal brackets, fin can ring, and tube coupler is about 6lb.
The service module, transition and tower less than 1 lb. - but there is much work yet to be done with these.
About eight pounds of stuff so far.
Adds up quickly.
The transition shroud will be CF with internal bracing - and will have to be re-dimensioned for proper fit to these components.

There will be a central core extended from the main central 3" motor mount that these components attach to - which is the structural back bone of this project, and house the recovery system and harness, and have a forged eyebolt attached.
The Rohacell order from CST should be in this week, along with the Loc P. parts I'll need.
I was thinking of shedding some weight on the sonotube tube coupler, maybe peeling some layers off the inside and replacing/putting FG or CF.
Fins...the eight fin brackets on the central MMT will be heavy...maybe G10, with vacuum bagged CF hollow fins over that.

I think if I can continue to keep the rest of this build as light as possible - the heaviest individual parts will be the motors and all the nose weight.

MaxQ said:

One thing I'll need to discuss is how to prepare that real shiny smooth surface on the inside of the tube to allow bonding of some structural struts coming off the main MMT core to the inside wall of the main airframe.

The exterior peel ply surface looks like it will take a bond, but that shiny smooth interior, maybe less so.

I'm thinking about some CF composite projects down the road after this one is done.

Click to expand...

Correct here, if you want the inside of the tube to take a bond, use the peel on the inside too. If I use a cardboard tube for a mandrel I wrap it in mylar, then spray that with WD40, then wrap another piece of mylar over that, then start the layup - you will be amazed how easily the final tube comes off the mandrel once cured - no taping or tugging, it just slides straight off :wink:

If I'm rolling a tube intended for booster section, then I do all of the above plus add a wrap of peel ply, then start the layup over that - make sure it is a caliber or two longer than the layup and keep those ends dry so you've got something to grip when you peel it off. That way, the inside of your tube is ready to go without having to do any awkward sanding etc...

Loving this thread! The build is looking fantastic and I can't wait to see the finished product - and some flight pictures too.

astrojase said:

Correct here, if you want the inside of the tube to take a bond, use the peel on the inside too. If I use a cardboard tube for a mandrel I wrap it in mylar, then spray that with WD40, then wrap another piece of mylar over that, then start the layup - you will be amazed how easily the final tube comes off the mandrel once cured - no taping or tugging, it just slides straight off :wink:

If I'm rolling a tube intended for booster section, then I do all of the above plus add a wrap of peel ply, then start the layup over that - make sure it is a caliber or two longer than the layup and keep those ends dry so you've got something to grip when you peel it off. That way, the inside of your tube is ready to go without having to do any awkward sanding etc...

Loving this thread! The build is looking fantastic and I can't wait to see the finished product - and some flight pictures too.

Click to expand...

Thanks man.
Good tip on the peel ply on the inside of the tube on the mandrel, wish I had thought of that, makes perfect sense.
I'll remember that for the next one

The Loc P. order came into today so I'll be back on the internal structure...still waiting on Rohacell.

Stopped by my local West Systems and restocked on resin and hardner.

Fins, still mulling that one over.

Came across this picture from heroic relics that hints at the purpose of the gizmos on the TE of the fins..."hold down fitting - restraining bracket".

that looks awesome! my computer blew last week so I am operating off my wife's lap top....your first stage looks terrific. The fin structure you referred to is defintely the hold down arms. The bad thing about the Saturn 1b is that is has 8 fins to make....the neat thing about the 1b is that is has 8 really cool looking raked fins. She looks awesome so far!!

MaxQ said:

I wanted to get a picture of the main components at this point of the build, and weigh them.

I don't have a very accurate scale, but the CF main airframe looks to be 1lb to 1.5 lb.
The tube tank assembly with the eight tanks, internal brackets, fin can ring, and tube coupler is about 6lb.
The service module, transition and tower less than 1 lb. - but there is much work yet to be done with these.
About eight pounds of stuff so far.
Adds up quickly.
The transition shroud will be CF with internal bracing - and will have to be re-dimensioned for proper fit to these components.

There will be a central core extended from the main central 3" motor mount that these components attach to - which is the structural back bone of this project, and house the recovery system and harness, and have a forged eyebolt attached.
The Rohacell order from CST should be in this week, along with the Loc P. parts I'll need.
I was thinking of shedding some weight on the sonotube tube coupler, maybe peeling some layers off the inside and replacing/putting FG or CF.
Fins...the eight fin brackets on the central MMT will be heavy...maybe G10, with vacuum bagged CF hollow fins over that.

I think if I can continue to keep the rest of this build as light as possible - the heaviest individual parts will be the motors and all the nose weight.

View attachment 294608 View attachment 294609

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NJRick said:

that looks awesome! my computer blew last week so I am operating off my wife's lap top....your first stage looks terrific. The fin structure you referred to is defintely the hold down arms. The bad thing about the Saturn 1b is that is has 8 fins to make....the neat thing about the 1b is that is has 8 really cool looking raked fins. She looks awesome so far!!

Click to expand...

Thanks, appreciate the compliment.
Hope your computer gets fixed.

Yeah, one of the nice things about a Saturn 1 B are those fins, but then I dread making eight of them, and figuring out a mounting method - thru the wall (which is a CF fin ring in my case) to the motor mount.
I'll figure something out.
At least the fins don't hang below the aft end and hit the ground first, they are kind of protected in a vertical drop.

I try to do something everyday on this project, .....got to keep the energy level up.
If it gets done in time for the next LDRS I'll be bringing it up there. Used to fly with the MDRA guys.

Here is a little inspiration. I hung it up while I was building it in prep for a family holiday gathering a few years back and never took it down to finish it

One day...You can see a fin missing where one of the kids hit it with a ball. They were just tacked in to hang it for the family thing. I used 2.6 LOC tubes for the lower tanks and its about 101 inches making it about 1/27. A tad smaller than yours but hopefully still respectable.

Its made out of 1/8 ply bulkheads, 1/4 balsa stringers, posterboard, and Monokote. It weighs about 7 pounds. It really just needs a little graphics work and some basic rigging and its ready to go. Never really decided on power but you can see I left my options open. The 4" center tube in the first stage was the basic alignment for that stage. I figured I would just build a simple adapter for whatever motor was in there. I think I was figuring a 38 I or J and some smaller ones for effects on the outboards.

Maybe you are inspiring me to take it down

Scott

This looks really great so far!

Frank

mercsim said:

Here is a little inspiration. I hung it up while I was building it in prep for a family holiday gathering a few years back and never took it down to finish it

One day...You can see a fin missing where one of the kids hit it with a ball. They were just tacked in to hang it for the family thing. I used 2.6 LOC tubes for the lower tanks and its about 101 inches making it about 1/27. A tad smaller than yours but hopefully still respectable.

Its made out of 1/8 ply bulkheads, 1/4 balsa stringers, posterboard, and Monokote. It weighs about 7 pounds. It really just needs a little graphics work and some basic rigging and its ready to go. Never really decided on power but you can see I left my options open. The 4" center tube in the first stage was the basic alignment for that stage. I figured I would just build a simple adapter for whatever motor was in there. I think I was figuring a 38 I or J and some smaller ones for effects on the outboards.

Maybe you are inspiring me to take it down

Scott

Click to expand...

Hey Scott, great to hear from you. Been awhile, since the great Space Shuttle debate, or the X-34 discussion IIRC.

Love your project there...very nice. Thinking along the same lines exactly here. Was thinking a J with outboards for effect.
Maybe we think alike, and now I'm not sure who should be worried about that...me...or you.:smile:

burkefj said:

This looks really great so far!

Frank

Click to expand...

Thanks Frank.
I think there is a niche group of us (Scott included) that think there is an approach to HPR where you can build reasonably large upscale projects and keep weight down (light), and hence keep the motor size within reasonable limits.
Looked at some of your foam projects in that regard.
Scott's RC space shuttle stack with the UHS in FLA was also an exercise in keeping things big but light.

Building heavy outright kind of mandates going to bigger motors, which in turn requires you strengthen the project to handle the high initial power and the cycle continues............

The 1/8 Redstone was built with the same construction methods in 1995 and weighs 6 lbs

There are some old photos and video on my unmaintained website. Spacecraftreplicas for those that don't know me.

Its always amazing how the weight adds up no matter how much you try. I always overkill the electronics which seems significant on these light models. Still, you are doing well! It would be great to see it in the 10 pound category. I haven't been here in a while but I bookmarked it and look forward to keeping tabs on your great model

BTW, Frank does do great work and gets the 'light' thing too!

Scott

I've been working with this online shroud calculator to make a template for this transition, but haven't got a result that works.
Not sure if there is a glitch in the calculator or I'm missing something.
In making a template from the results, either the small and large radii results are off, and won't match up to the lower and upper body tubes, or when I make adjustments, the height is wrong.

Three strikes...I'm out.
I'm going on to other things...will get back to the shroud when the internal structure is built up and can make something around it.

Try this. I have used it for years. There is a bunch of extra stuff there but you should be able to figure it out. What you want is in the upper left corner.

I used it for all the 1/4 scale paper Mercury Capsule project and everything fit perfectly.



Scott

View attachment Shroud1.xls

mercsim said:

Try this. I have used it for years. There is a bunch of extra stuff there but you should be able to figure it out. What you want is in the upper left corner.
I used it for all the 1/4 scale paper Mercury Capsule project and everything fit perfectly.
Scott

Click to expand...

Thanks Scott, I'll give it a try.

Always love your upscale projects Jim!

bsexton said:

Always love your upscale projects Jim!

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Bruce - Thanks!

I may have bit off more than I can chew on this one...but one way or another, this one is going up.
-or down.
-or sideways.

While cutting parts for the internal structure, I took a break and found this YouTube vid...a large nine foot rocket, flying on an H100.
Trick was the lightweight (6lbs. of paper and foam) and the short delay.

Low and slow and it works.

[video=youtube;rkIMvfyQoaM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkIMvfyQoaM[/video]

MaxQ said:

While cutting parts for the internal structure, I took a break and found this YouTube vid...a large nine foot rocket, flying on an H100.
Trick was the lightweight (6lbs. of paper and foam) and the short delay.

Low and slow and it works.

[video=youtube;rkIMvfyQoaM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkIMvfyQoaM[/video]

Click to expand...

That is awesome and one beautiful rocket. I believe public missiles did the same (big rocket, not tall), but with carbon.

I've been wanting to make a 3" that can fly on the F estes engines. Will get to it one day. I have the plastic nose cone, its just a matter of finding the mandrel that matches the OD of the nose shoulder.


Alexander Solis - TRA Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Great work Jim as always. I think I'll reread the thread for fun. Look forward to more progress...
See you soon. Looks like the logo is up on the LDRS site-- wahoo!

PaulB. said:

Great work Jim as always. I think I'll reread the thread for fun. Look forward to more progress...
See you soon. Looks like the logo is up on the LDRS site-- wahoo!

Click to expand...

Ha! What we need is a 12X Quark build thread!


Good job on that LDRS logo BTW.

Dangit! Coming up short again....

Here is my 4" one. That makes it about 8x.

One day I'll make something cool.

We need an update on the 1B

mercsim said:

Dangit! Coming up short again....

Here is my 4" one. That makes it about 8x.

One day I'll make something cool.

We need an update on the 1B

Click to expand...

Took a break to build one of those Estes NEW shuttles.
https://www.estesrockets.com/media/...b33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/0/007246_main.jpg


Update: Rohacell order came in, took awhile to make it across country from CST.

I'm designing structural members (braces) that will come off the central core 54mm motor tube (Loc P. parts) that will be between the tubes in the tube tank section to hold the fin can ring on the aft end.
They may double as fin brackets (G10).

Also have another set of braces (rohacell and CF) that secures the individual tank tubes.

This is the hard part as it needs to work with the parting section where it plugs into the forward main airframe.
Longitudinal spars will attach directly to the central core of both parts, and be the hard points for recovery harness attachment.

Having no design or kit plan to work from, I'm working it out as I go along.......made a number of changes while dimensioning things.

Been doing the kind of boring, but essential internal work.
The central structural core parts were cut and centering rings set up for the central core inside the forward CF main airframe.
The centering rings of the forward 5.54" dia. core tube will slide over the forward extension of the 3" dia. central core motor tube inside the tank tube fin can assembly, and the large 11.5 " dia. sonotube tube coupler plugs into the CF
main airframe.

Had to stop and lengthen all eight tank tubes to get them all to scale length, before marking centerlines lengthwise on the 3" core tube inside the tank tubes...these lines will be registration lines for the tank alignment and fin brackets.
That core required cutting eight small tube extensions of 2.65" each and eight tube couplers for each extension.

Took a pause to take a few pictures, then went vertical on the core tube - minus the main airframe CF outer tube or the forward transition to the SM.
Ran out of ceiling height.....capsule LES tower bumped up against the attic door.

Next I'll have to make templates for all the internal structural braces that will act as centering struts to hold everything centered, and then back to that pesky forward transition.
Internal motor mounts, recovery system hard points on the core tube, electronics bay...
All the exterior detailing will come last.
Should be able to finish this in time for the next moon landing......sometime in 2025.:sigh:

Sweeeeet that looks awesome


Alexander Solis - TRA Level 1 - Mariah 54 - CTI-I100 Red Lightning Longburn - 6,345 Feet

Online shroud calculator was still giving me fits, cut three or four shroud templates using the online calculator, templates still would not fit correctly

So I'm trying this method which has worked before.

Using my scale design drawing I took dimensions from top to bottom.
Calculated the diameter at the top to match the service module, then the diameter at the bottom where it meets the main airframe, then took the overall height.
Subtracted the width of the central core diameter - then divided by two, which gave me dimensions for the angled braces on the outside of the core tube.

Cut the internal shroud bracing from foam core - and installed them directly on the core tube and checked the fit.

This should help when pulling the shroud - I've wrapped myler shrouds over this kind of bracing before, marked the edges, and then cut to fit, followed by fiber glassing.

Set the service module BT on top, good match, fits the angled bracing perfectly.

I stuck the roughed up capsule shroud and LES tower (sans the NC and LES aft skirt - which have yet to be done) just to see how it looks.

MaxQ said:

I've been working with this online shroud calculator to make a template for this transition, but haven't got a result that works.
Not sure if there is a glitch in the calculator or I'm missing something.
In making a template from the results, either the small and large radii results are off, and won't match up to the lower and upper body tubes, or when I make adjustments, the height is wrong.

Three strikes...I'm out.
I'm going on to other things...will get back to the shroud when the internal structure is built up and can make something around it.

Click to expand...

I have found shroud patterns to be sensitive to the thickness of the shroud material, especially when I try laying out a flat pattern from 3D CAD....I am curious as to what your inputs to the program are (small dia, big dia, length, etc).

I found Openrocket is pretty handy to create shroud patterns with. Playing with the material thickness might give you better results. I dug back through this thread and came up with d1=6.68, d2=11.5 and scaled the length of 14.609 from George's drawings you posted (I used exactly 1/23 to scale the length). Here is the ork file I came up with...you will need to adjust to your actual dimensions. Be interesting to see how it fits....

Another trick I found handy when making my paper nose cones was to use a "backing tab" rather than the extension tab, then I can adjust for girth differences in the actual fit-up vs. the theoretical dimensions....

View attachment MaxQ Saturn1B LM Shroud.ork

rocketguy101 said:

I have found shroud patterns to be sensitive to the thickness of the shroud material, especially when I try laying out a flat pattern from 3D CAD....I am curious as to what your inputs to the program are (small dia, big dia, length, etc).

I found Openrocket is pretty handy to create shroud patterns with. Playing with the material thickness might give you better results. I dug back through this thread and came up with d1=6.68, d2=11.5 and scaled the length of 14.609 from George's drawings you posted (I used exactly 1/23 to scale the length). Here is the ork file I came up with...you will need to adjust to your actual dimensions. Be interesting to see how it fits....

Another trick I found handy when making my paper nose cones was to use a "backing tab" rather than the extension tab, then I can adjust for girth differences in the actual fit-up vs. the theoretical dimensions....

Click to expand...

Thanks!
The shroud calculator I used requires the small dia. (6.6") large diameter (11.87" got a little larger after CF layup) and height (14.5")

It calculated a small radius of:18.457
large radius of:33.194
angle of 65 degrees

Here is the last shroud I cut using the template calculator....placed over the transition braces I attached to the core tube.
it was a bit short in height...didn't stretch to the full height, and when trying to line up the top even to the small diameter, it wouldn't close around the shape evenly...at the bottom large diameter - note the gap in the bottom and the wrong angle where it closes.

The second picture shows a full mylar wrap which I cut longer to get full coverage over the transition bracing - a trial and error approach......
I'll mark it where I need to do final trim to fit.