What is the best igniter and e-match to use for DD and AT motors? Also vendors. I did some searching but want updated opinions and advice. Thanks
Igniter and e-match questions
- Thread starter Rob702Martinez
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ozwald
Well-Known Member
+1 on Crazy Jim's offerings. I just received 3 dozen of his charge initiators and was very impressed with how they work. During recent testing I compared them to my older ematches. The old ones ignited with a loud snap and his produced a ball of flame lasting at least 1 second. I have no doubt that they will have no problem lighting even the most stubborn of charges. As far as motor igniters, I've always used the ones that come with each reload. They are basically long Firstfires.
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All of those are e match type, and those will work in a AT motor? I was told that e match style only works in CTI motors, and AT needed the Pyro type. Just looking for options to use so I'm not locked to one style or supplier.
rharshberger
Well-Known Member
Your original question iirc (before the accidental delete) was about the difference between e-matches and motor ignitors and AT motors. The biggest difference is in the pyrogens, motor ignitors burn hotter and longer. Ematches burn with a quick pop. CTI motors can be lit easily with an ematch due to the fact that CTI uses a ignition/pyro pellet ( a type of black powder iirc) in their motors 24mm to at least 38mm (if not 54mm too, sorry not that familiar with CTI's 54mm and up). AT's Blue Thunder is easy to light and has been known to be lit with a Ematch or in some cases a Q2G2 was even used, other AT motor formulas need a motor lighter like a FirstFire or FirstFireJr to light reliably. Motor ignitors also tend to require a greater amount of current to light.
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Any e-match will light BP ejection charges and most CTI motors. Some CTI motors require a dipped igniter. AT requires a dipped igniter. You can buy e-matched at various places, the easiest/cheapest being Amazon, although these come from China and there is a legitimate question regarding the legality of shipping them without HAZMAT.
The link I provided is for dipped igniters that I think are very good.
The link I provided is for dipped igniters that I think are very good.
Thanks for the help. Yes that was my original question about the difference but I saw the answer before it got erased. So the frankum igniters are pyro style not e match style so that would be an alternative to first fire igniters....right? And just get some jtek or similar e matches for DD?
Bingo.
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https://www.csrocketry.com/store/firewire-electric-match.html
One of our supporting vendors, great price, great service. Use these for DD on rockets that you want to use more than once.
One of our supporting vendors, great price, great service. Use these for DD on rockets that you want to use more than once.
blackjack2564
Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
A match is almost always used to "initiate" another action. i.ie. light something. Just like a normal pack of matches.
If you think of it like that , it becomes quite clear.You 'strike" a match to light a cigarette, firecracker, wood fire, incense, etc.
E-match is just an electrical version of that. In fact the head looks just like a real match. Originally used to light fuse on fireworks & BP "lift" charges on "mortar" type ariel shells for displays.
The bridgewire is usually 40-46 ga. and is optimized of low current ignition. Why they work so well with altimeters where 9v/3.7/7.4v. batteries are most common.
They will work fine with higher voltage/high amp systems also. [12v launch]
Mostly a match is used to "start" BP in ejection charge. "Start" a BP pellet placed in top grain of CTI motor. Or dipped in a more potent pyrogen, to be used as igniter in motor,[without BP pellet] or large bore motor where a BP pellet is not advisable. Here" starting" the pyrogen, which then lights the motor.
This is great for upper stage lighting, it combines the low current requirement & fortified pyrogen needed to light motors reliably in 2- stagers.
Typical "motor" igniters [not CTI] are designed for high current/amp launch systems [12volt high amp] and are totally self contained packages. ..lead wire....bridge wire.....high temp, long burn pyrogen. To do just one thing, light a motor by transfer of heat. There are many, many types of pyrogen for these, but the basic principal for ignition in most are 2 types. They will NOT work with LOW current power source.
1. Bridge wire/nichrome 30-32 ga. which heats up white hot and starts the pyro "or" 2. bridge-less where the bare lead wires exposed tips are dipped in a electrically conductive starting pyro. Then dipped again in another fortified pyro which actually starts the motor.
The first pyro conducts electricity between lead wires, heat up and lights very quickly, then the other pyro takes over and transfers huge amount of heat & gas to light the fuel grain in motor.
Some pyrogens are dipped [usually nitro cellulose or some plastic/rubber base dip]and others are packed in straws to cure [epoxy based] They usually contain a metal & oxidizer or can be as simple as finely ground BP.
So to summerize. e-match "starts" a chain of events using low current. Has multiple uses in conjunction with different pyrogens. I.E. ejection charges, start motor with BP pellet or additional pyrogen. Income cases will even light a motor on it's own. All are very low current/amp even a 1.5 v AAAA battery will fire.
So.....low OR high current.
Motor starter /igniter. designed for one use only, to start a high power motor "on the pad" using 12 volt high amp power source. Complete, self contained package. No need for further dipping to use. Comes "sized" for use in small-medium-large motors. Will ONLY work when powered by 12volt high current/amp source.
Not to be used in ejection charge or air started motors in conjunction with most electronics.
Some electronics can use a 2nd battery or have big capacitor that will light these. But for our conversation here and "normal" use, I am excluding them for now to keep from confusion.
This could go on-on about all the finer points, such as burning or "popping" matches, bride wire ga., dip vs pack, which pyro is best for what job etc. for now this is the basic info.
I have been making motor starters for years, sold as little'uns and Big un's by Wildman. These are soldered bridgewires, cast in epoxy, made to last years bouncing around in range boxes, getting wet from rain or dew, or just sitting on the shelf [not submersing in water for days...LOL] Will not crumble or break if stepped on dropped etc. Don't go out and drive your truck back & forth over one just to prove me wrong...:eyeroll:
They have lit just about every type motor out there, and plain ole big'uns used on "P's"
So these come highly recommended by me at least.
As far as matches go. Any of the "high quality" one out there will work. Be sure to inspect the heads for complete coverage of pyrogen over the chip board. Toss any that get wet, look damaged, have solder bridging/shorting. [or keep for ground testing]
Good luck-have fun...hope this helps!:wink:
If you think of it like that , it becomes quite clear.You 'strike" a match to light a cigarette, firecracker, wood fire, incense, etc.
E-match is just an electrical version of that. In fact the head looks just like a real match. Originally used to light fuse on fireworks & BP "lift" charges on "mortar" type ariel shells for displays.
The bridgewire is usually 40-46 ga. and is optimized of low current ignition. Why they work so well with altimeters where 9v/3.7/7.4v. batteries are most common.
They will work fine with higher voltage/high amp systems also. [12v launch]
Mostly a match is used to "start" BP in ejection charge. "Start" a BP pellet placed in top grain of CTI motor. Or dipped in a more potent pyrogen, to be used as igniter in motor,[without BP pellet] or large bore motor where a BP pellet is not advisable. Here" starting" the pyrogen, which then lights the motor.
This is great for upper stage lighting, it combines the low current requirement & fortified pyrogen needed to light motors reliably in 2- stagers.
Typical "motor" igniters [not CTI] are designed for high current/amp launch systems [12volt high amp] and are totally self contained packages. ..lead wire....bridge wire.....high temp, long burn pyrogen. To do just one thing, light a motor by transfer of heat. There are many, many types of pyrogen for these, but the basic principal for ignition in most are 2 types. They will NOT work with LOW current power source.
1. Bridge wire/nichrome 30-32 ga. which heats up white hot and starts the pyro "or" 2. bridge-less where the bare lead wires exposed tips are dipped in a electrically conductive starting pyro. Then dipped again in another fortified pyro which actually starts the motor.
The first pyro conducts electricity between lead wires, heat up and lights very quickly, then the other pyro takes over and transfers huge amount of heat & gas to light the fuel grain in motor.
Some pyrogens are dipped [usually nitro cellulose or some plastic/rubber base dip]and others are packed in straws to cure [epoxy based] They usually contain a metal & oxidizer or can be as simple as finely ground BP.
So to summerize. e-match "starts" a chain of events using low current. Has multiple uses in conjunction with different pyrogens. I.E. ejection charges, start motor with BP pellet or additional pyrogen. Income cases will even light a motor on it's own. All are very low current/amp even a 1.5 v AAAA battery will fire.
So.....low OR high current.
Motor starter /igniter. designed for one use only, to start a high power motor "on the pad" using 12 volt high amp power source. Complete, self contained package. No need for further dipping to use. Comes "sized" for use in small-medium-large motors. Will ONLY work when powered by 12volt high current/amp source.
Not to be used in ejection charge or air started motors in conjunction with most electronics.
Some electronics can use a 2nd battery or have big capacitor that will light these. But for our conversation here and "normal" use, I am excluding them for now to keep from confusion.
This could go on-on about all the finer points, such as burning or "popping" matches, bride wire ga., dip vs pack, which pyro is best for what job etc. for now this is the basic info.
I have been making motor starters for years, sold as little'uns and Big un's by Wildman. These are soldered bridgewires, cast in epoxy, made to last years bouncing around in range boxes, getting wet from rain or dew, or just sitting on the shelf [not submersing in water for days...LOL] Will not crumble or break if stepped on dropped etc. Don't go out and drive your truck back & forth over one just to prove me wrong...:eyeroll:
They have lit just about every type motor out there, and plain ole big'uns used on "P's"
So these come highly recommended by me at least.
As far as matches go. Any of the "high quality" one out there will work. Be sure to inspect the heads for complete coverage of pyrogen over the chip board. Toss any that get wet, look damaged, have solder bridging/shorting. [or keep for ground testing]
Good luck-have fun...hope this helps!:wink:
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CzTeacherMan
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Yep... Littl'uns are my standard backup. Keep a pack handy at all times. Now I've even got Big'uns since I destroyed the starter for a K300 trying to shove it in the damned slot...
I know a guy who sells e-matches at a great deal... ... ...
Best posts ever....best info ever! I really appreciate your guys' help.
