Proline 4500 mix ratio???

OK, I recently (Red Glare) bought some Proline 4500, but the can came with no markings. I've seen it referenced here, but I've never used it, so I thought I'd do some looking here on TRF.

I see that older threads said 5.5:1 as a mix ratio, but current web site references say 100:16 (which is a 6.25:1), but really, no one seems to agree, even recently.

Did the formulation change somewhere along the way? What ratio are you using? I'm about to do a crazy amount of fillets, any specific tips for 4500?

Banzai88 said:

OK, I recently (Red Glare) bought some Proline 4500, but the can came with no markings. I've seen it referenced here, but I've never used it, so I thought I'd do some looking here on TRF.

I see that older threads said 5.5:1 as a mix ratio, but current web site references say 100:16 (which is a 6.25:1), but really, no one seems to agree, even recently.

Did the formulation change somewhere along the way? What ratio are you using? I'm about to do a crazy amount of fillets, any specific tips for 4500?

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I do it at 5.5:1 by weight.

Banzai88 said:

100:16

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I use 100:16 by weight, but I am interested in seeing what answers you get :confused2:

I just found this link from ProLine Rocketry's website https://prolinerocketry.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=77

I have bought it from 2 different distributors and in each case, one was labeled 5.5:1 & the other was 100:16.
I have used both ratios to no ill effect.

I'm not sure why the recommendation changed, but the four sets of cans i have all say 100:16

I've always mixed it in batches of 11:2 or 22:4

DizWolf said:

I've always mixed it in batches of 11:2 or 22:4

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Yeah but have you ever tried 44:8 just for fun :wink:

I've used up 2 pints from Wildman at 5.5 to 1 with great results.Last batch was a year ago. Recently got a smaller batch from Rocketry Warehouse with different packaging that says 100-16 ratio.
If the conversion for that is 6.25 to 1 then that's what I'll do. Would be interested to know if the formula has changed & if so why.

mpitfield said:

Yeah but have you ever tried 44:8 just for fun :wink:

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One time, I got all crazy and tried 440:80

I meant to say 11g to 2g and 22g to 4g this crazy french measurement system gets me all confused.

glenbo said:

I've used up 2 pints from Wildman at 5.5 to 1 with great results.Last batch was a year ago. Recently got a smaller batch from Rocketry Warehouse with different packaging that says 100-16 ratio.
If the conversion for that is 6.25 to 1 then that's what I'll do. Would be interested to know if the formula has changed & if so why.

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I would conjecture when the 4500 is formulated, the maker might do some testing of some kind to see what the optimal mix ratio is for a given batch. A different ratio (outside of mathematical equivalents!) might mean there
was a variation in one or more of the components that necessitates a ratio change.

It's weird that the cans wouldn't have a label on them. Kurt

DizWolf said:

One time, I got all crazy and tried 440:80

I meant to say 11g to 2g and 22g to 4g this crazy french measurement system gets me all confused.

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Yeah that crazy metric system that the rest of the world uses is just nuts. Well I shouldn't exaggerate "the rest of the world" is a bit of an over statement, after all Liberia and Myanmar also use the Imperial system.

Here is a perfect example of the insanity of the metric system.

View attachment 290339

Yeah, The folks from college science get used to it pretty quickly Math,Chem and Physics sorta stuff. I was really jazzed that NASA crashed that Mars lander some years ago because someone got their English and Metric units messed up:
https://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/ I thought all science jocks used the metric system and wonder what school the Lock-Mart engineers went to. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Yeah, The folks from college science get used to it pretty quickly Math,Chem and Physics sorta stuff. I was really jazzed that NASA crashed that Mars lander some years ago because someone got their English and Metric units messed up:
https://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/ I thought all science jocks used the metric system and wonder what school the Lock-Mart engineers went to. Kurt

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I first learned Imperial, then in the mid 70s Canada switched to Metric, talk about confusing, it was a bit painful for me. Still today I could not tell you how much I weigh in KG or how tall I am in cm, I still think of those two units in Imperial. Everything else, speed, even distance in km vs. Miles I now think in Metric, but it has been a slow transformation for me.

I still mix the batch I got from Wildman last year at 5.5 to 1 (or 11 to 2 or 16.5 to 3... :eyeroll: ). So far, everything has cured OK. And I'm not super anal about the ratio. If I'm a few tenths of a gram over, or under, it still works...

Adrian

ksaves2 said:

It's weird that the cans wouldn't have a label on them

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These were straight from Wildman outta his trailer at Red Glare not too long ago. Maybe he orders it by the gallon lots and decants? Maybe he orders so many that he gets case lots without labels? Doesn't really matter, I guess.

In any case, the answers to this thread so far illustrate the issue with what ratio is 'correct' quite well. With the way that I'm given to understand that these things are formulated, I don't really see how they would so consistently hit the 5:1 or 6.25:1 targets. Sure would do crap for mixing batch lots. Doesn't really explain why the ProLine web site clearly says 100:16. If it were a 'batch specific' thing, you think that they'dd have a batch listing so you could figure it out and not dork it up.

In any case, it sounds like it's not very ratio sensitive. I would just be nice to know definitively. I guess that would be the ProLine page.

100:16 = 6.25:1 for me.

Banzai88 said:

These were straight from Wildman outta his trailer at Red Glare not too long ago. Maybe he orders it by the gallon lots and decants? Maybe he orders so many that he gets case lots without labels? Doesn't really matter, I guess.

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I've heard the units "bathtub" and "swimming pool" used to describe the volumes he orders it in,

If you are looking for "batch specific" ratio's, for 1 set of two 6" root fillits I use 11:2. That's 11 grams and 2 grams. Seem like just the right amount for a set(2) of 6" to 8" fillits with a tad left over. It's a little tricky measuring out ingredients with the constancy of honey. If you don't get the ratios exactly right, don't worry, all is not lost. If you go over or under on the hardener, it's either gonna kick (react) quicker or slower. Hope this helps.

mpitfield said:

Yeah that crazy metric system that the rest of the world uses is just nuts. Well I shouldn't exaggerate "the rest of the world" is a bit of an over statement, after all Liberia and Myanmar also use the Imperial system.

Here is a perfect example of the insanity of the metric system.

View attachment 290339

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Absolute drivel my foot is a foot and Napoleon was a shortie.

Personally I'd love to go metric. I'd only have trouble getting rid of miles, pounds and calibers. Cooking and using pints/quarts/gallons drives me batshit. At least the liquor industry got solidly behind using liters etc.

ksaves2 said:

Yeah, The folks from college science get used to it pretty quickly Math,Chem and Physics sorta stuff. I was really jazzed that NASA crashed that Mars lander some years ago because someone got their English and Metric units messed up:
https://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/ I thought all science jocks used the metric system and wonder what school the Lock-Mart engineers went to. Kurt

Click to expand...

Didn't this issue also trip up Apollo 13?

DizWolf said:

Didn't this issue also trip up Apollo 13?

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Not sure about that one but I recall a multi million dollar mistake with one of the Mars landers due to Metric vs. Imperial. I also know there have been some aviation mishaps. The Gimli glider is one of the more well known ones where there was a fuel calculation mistake and the plane ran out of fuel, but amazingly the pilot landed it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider.

mpitfield said:

Not sure about that one but I recall a multi million dollar mistake with one of the Mars landers due to Metric vs. Imperial. I also know there have been some aviation mishaps. The Gimli glider is one of the more well known ones where there was a fuel calculation mistake and the plane ran out of fuel, but amazingly the pilot landed it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider.

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I was incorrect- https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/ap13acc.html


Man.... gliding a 767 is hardcore....

There are thousands of epoxy resins and thousands of epoxy linkers. Each pair has a different mix ratio, and the w/w mix ratio is not the same as the v/v mix ration unless the density of each are the same.

Google is your friend. Go to the supplier who in theory has done the math right. ProLine 4500 is a thick black high temperature epoxy resin.

From https://prolinerocketry.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=66&osCsid=rode7dnubm5gvrkubfrsg4hrv2

Thick Black High Temp. This Epoxy is great for filets. High Temp rating of 500F.

Mix Ratio is 100:16 (Best when mixing with a 0.1 gram scale measuring ProLine 4500 Epoxy using a 0.1 gram resolution scale.)
(Example) For mixing 20g of Epoxy (Resin).

Put your empty cup on the scale and zero it out. Add epoxy resin to cup till you reach 20g.

Calculating Hardener: 20g + 16% = 3.2g of hardener needed.

Now while the epoxy is still on the scale pour (slowly) the hardener in till the scale reads (23.2g total). Mix well and use.

Tim's directions are here. https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/pdf/Epoxy_Glue/Proline Epoxy Specs.pdf His directions are for a low viscosity clear laminating resin, definitely not ProLine 4500.

Please remember Weight : Weigh is the best way to mix any epoxy resin and linker. Volume :Volume works ok if you are using injectors but not when you are pouring high viscosity liquids in low volumes as you can't get all the resin to transfer.

Bob

Bob, that's pretty much how I was thinking, just wasn't sure what the collective hive mind wisdom was or of the history of the ratio change.

I'll be using the 100:16/6.25:1 ratio.