Technologically advanced ETs? More likely than not...

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Winston

Lorenzo von Matterhorn
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Are we alone? Setting some limits to our uniqueness
April 28, 2016

https://phys.org/news/2016-04-limits-uniqueness.html

Excerpts:

...a new paper shows that the recent discoveries of exoplanets combined with a broader approach to the question makes it possible to assign a new empirically valid probability to whether any other advanced technological civilizations have ever existed.

And it shows that unless the odds of advanced life evolving on a habitable planet are astonishingly low, then human kind is not the universe's first technological, or advanced, civilization.

"Rather than asking how many civilizations may exist now, we ask 'Are we the only technological species that has ever arisen?" said Sullivan. "This shifted focus eliminates the uncertainty of the civilization lifetime question and allows us to address what we call the 'cosmic archaeological question'—how often in the history of the universe has life evolved to an advanced state?"

That still leaves huge uncertainties in calculating the probability for advanced life to evolve on habitable planets. It's here that Frank and Sullivan flip the question around. Rather than guessing at the odds of advanced life developing, they calculate the odds against it occurring in order for humanity to be the only advanced civilization in the entire history of the observable universe. With that, Frank and Sullivan then calculated the line between a Universe where humanity has been the sole experiment in civilization and one where others have come before us.

"Of course, we have no idea how likely it is that an intelligent technological species will evolve on a given habitable planet," says Frank. But using our method we can tell exactly how low that probability would have to be for us to be the ONLY civilization the Universe has produced. We call that the pessimism line. If the actual probability is greater than the pessimism line, then a technological species and civilization has likely happened before."

Using this approach, Frank and Sullivan calculate how unlikely advanced life must be if there has never been another example among the universe's ten billion trillion stars, or even among our own Milky Way galaxy's hundred billion.

The result? By applying the new exoplanet data to the universe's 2 x 10 to the 22nd power stars, Frank and Sullivan find that human civilization is likely to be unique in the cosmos only if the odds of a civilization developing on a habitable planet are less than about one in 10 billion trillion, or one part in 10 to the 22th power.

"One in 10 billion trillion is incredibly small," says Frank. "To me, this implies that other intelligent, technology producing species very likely have evolved before us. Think of it this way. Before our result you'd be considered a pessimist if you imagined the probability of evolving a civilization on a habitable planet were, say, one in a trillion. But even that guess, one chance in a trillion, implies that what has happened here on Earth with humanity has in fact happened about a 10 billion other times over cosmic history!"
(visualizing one billion - the height of a stack of one billion one dollar bills measures 358,510 feet or 67.9 miles. This would reach from the earth’s surface into the lower portion of the troposphere. - W)

For smaller volumes the numbers are less extreme. For example, another technological species likely has evolved on a habitable planet in our own Milky Way galaxy if the odds against it evolving on any one habitable planet are better than one chance in 60 billion.

But if those numbers seem to give ammunition to the "optimists" about the existence of alien civilizations, Sullivan points out that the full Drake equation—which calculates the odds that other civilizations are around today—may give solace to the pessimists.

"The universe is more than 13 billion years old," said Sullivan. "That means that even if there have been a thousand civilizations in our own galaxy, if they live only as long as we have been around—roughly ten thousand years—then all of them are likely already extinct. And others won't evolve until we are long gone. For us to have much chance of success in finding another "contemporary" active technological civilization, on average they must last much longer than our present lifetime."

"Given the vast distances between stars and the fixed speed of light we might never really be able to have a conversation with another civilization anyway," said Frank. "If they were 20,000 light years away then every exchange would take 40,000 years to go back and forth."

But, as Frank and Sullivan point out, even if there aren't other civilizations in our galaxy to communicate with now, the new result still has a profound scientific and philosophical importance. "From a fundamental perspective the question is 'has it ever happened anywhere before?'" said Frank. Our result is the first time anyone has been able to set any empirical answer for that question and it is astonishingly likely that we are not the only time and place that an advance civilization has evolved."


Scientists discover potentially habitable planets
Just 40 light years from Earth, planets are best targets so far for search for extraterrestrial life.
May 2, 2016

https://news.mit.edu/2016/scientists-discover-potentially-habitable-planets-0502

Excerpts from that article and another:

Because the system is just 40 light years from Earth, co-author Julien de Wit, a postdoc in the Department of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences, says scientists will soon be able to study the planets’ atmospheric compositions, as well as assess their habitability and whether life actually exists within this planetary system.

“These planets are so close, and their star so small, we can study their atmosphere and composition, and further down the road, which is within our generation, assess if they are actually inhabited,” de Wit says. “All of these things are achievable, and within reach now. This is a jackpot for the field.”

Up to now, the search for Earth-like orbs in our Galaxy and beyond centred on stars like our Sun, more massive and hotter than the dwarf around which the newly-discovered worlds orbit.

But the discovery suggests that a significant fraction of ultracool dwarfs hold potentially habitable planets in their gravitational sway.

"At the scale of our Galaxy, this means billions of additional places where life might have developed," Gillon said.
 
I'm going to have to re-read this after I get another cup of coffee. Too many cobwebs this A.M.
 
OK. I have had my second cup of coffee and read the article again and I have come to this conclusion...There are billions of me out there!!! :y: I feel sorry for them. Those poor suckers! :lol:
 
Of course, these are good points, but there are caveats. It is hard to believe that intelligent civilizations do not exist somewhere in the universe. If they existed in another time and the civilization has collapsed, we cannot communicate with them. If they are thousand of light years away, we cannot have a realistic conversation with them.

The latest discovery of inhabitable planets (in the correct temperature zone for liquid water to exist) of 40 light-years away helps illustrates on a general basis that perhaps civilizations are nearby. However, on a specific basis this latest solar system discovery has the standard problems of close-in exoplanets. Several of these planets are so close-in that they are gravitationally locked so that one side of the planet constantly faces the sun while the other faces away, probably making the planet not inhabitable. In addition there is the problems that being so close to a star there may be radiation problems. There is also the question has the star and this inhabitable zone existed long enough for a civilization to arise.
 
tl;dr : we've got about 30 million years before Smith's Cloud smashes back into the Milky Way, a billion for Andromeda. We should probably pay more attention to Canis and Sagittarius so we can be spread out enough to catch a 4 billion ride on both halves of the Milky Way / Andromeda ejecta.
 
Is it even necessary for any form of life to exist in order for the universe to exist. The raw materials of matter most certainly could exist without life, intelligent or otherwise. So why life?
 
Is it even necessary for any form of life to exist in order for the universe to exist. The raw materials of matter most certainly could exist without life, intelligent or otherwise. So why life?
Moving from probability over to why; why not?
 
I'd answer you, but I'd have to use the Bible, and thus the thread would get locked and I might get banned. Suffice it to say that for me, there is a why not. Carry on....
 
What I got from the article is that they really don't know, but they're trying to make it sound as if they do know... :confused2:

So if they calculate odds as 1 in 10^22, why is that "small" in cosmic terms? What if the odds(if finally known) turned out to be 1 in 10^40?

So here we are again at speculation, still knowing nothing more.

Entertaining to think about, but in the end the answer to the question "Are we alone?" is profound. Whatever it may be...
 
I'd answer you, but I'd have to use the Bible, and thus the thread would get locked and I might get banned. Suffice it to say that for me, there is a why not. Carry on....

With or without the Bible, are life forms inevitable and why do they exist? There are plenty of places completely devoid of any apparent life forms, yet they seem to get along just fine without us. But without us, who would know? I'm not trying to start a pissing contest but I have had this recurring thought for years and can't help but wonder if others have had similar thoughts.

Another weird thought I have regards time and distance. It's pretty well established that light travels at a rate of 186,000+ miles per second, six trillion miles per year. The Andromeda Constellation is something like 2 1/2 million light years distant, which means that when we see it in the night sky we are looking at an object not as it is now, but as it existed 2 1/2 million years ago. I can't help but wonder if it is still there?

We'll just have to wait and see. :pop:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy
 
Sounds like they are severely overestimating the chances of, oh oops, we happened to get intelligent life that evolved by chance. Even if there are umpty trillion stars that just happen to have planets that just happen to be the perfect distance away, and just happen to rotate.
 
The thing that EVERYONE always forgets!
Just because an entity is "Extra-Terrestrial", does NOT mean it HAS to be from our known Universe at all, and the likelyhood that we would encounter it if it was is nil.
Extra Dimensional Entities are a far more real existential threat, and more realistic.
There could be a thousand type 0 and 1 societies in our galaxy alone, but we will never hear from them, nor will they hear from us in our lifetime.
Even if they had the best of everything, unless they can alter reality itself, which is an order of magnitude above folding space, they are inconsequential to our reality at all. They may as well be "Non-Existent" even if the data aquired was to quantify them as otherwise. They would never become part of our reality in a detrimental fashion, so though we know they are there, we may only take solace in the fact that we know.
Inter-dimensional Entities however can actually show up in person, on any scene.
That is scary!
You can't chase them down to retaliate, as they don't even exist where you could get to, even if you could go anywhere you CAN go, you simply can't go where they go.
We are still single celled organisms compared to them.
 
It has become painfully obvious in the past half an hour that there is no longer any intelligent life in the United States. The Mob Rules.
 
Scientists should look for intelligent life on *this* planet first (well, intelligent life outside the members of this forum, LOL!).
 
Had a dream last night I was being chased by a Xenomorph. Maybe searching for alien life is not a good idea after all.

Never know what you might wake up...
 
Another way to perceive the odds. This video will start at the relevant 7 minute point:

https://youtu.be/pR5VJo5ifdE?t=7m

Also:

1,284 new planets: Kepler mission announces largest collection ever discovered

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-planets-kepler-mission-largest.html#jCp

"Before the Kepler space telescope launched, we did not know whether exoplanets were rare or common in the galaxy. Thanks to Kepler and the research community, we now know there could be more planets than stars," said Paul Hertz, Astrophysics Division director at NASA Headquarters.
 
My own totally wild-arse guess is that within the next century or so, we will detect evidence of an ET technological civilization, but it will be so far away (several hundred LYs) that transactional communication will be impossible.

And yes, the likelihood would be they would be far more technologically advanced than we are.
 
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My own totally wild-arse guess is that within the next century or so, we will detect evidence of an ET technological civilization, but it will be so far away (several hundred LYs) that transactional communication will be impossible.

And yes, the likelihood would be they would be far more technologically advanced than we are.
I agree about the likelihood of intelligent alien life, but I don't think we'd ever be able to detect them unless they stupidly (IMO) intentionally broadcast their presence in a very powerful way within "an unknown neighborhood" with potentially unfriendly neighbors who are so advanced they'd look at us like we look at apes or even lower forms of life. Our SETI capabilities would only be able to detect unintentional RF leakage from our own civilization from a distance of only 1ly and even RF emissions from our own crude tech are decreasing rapidly with time as they become more efficient. Detection of industrial pollutants in an atmosphere would only be possible during the relatively very brief time between the use of hydrocarbon fuels and fusion.

Sadly, unless they want to be detected or erect something that can't be easily missed (ex., a Dyson Sphere), I don't think we'll ever detect technologically advanced ETs. However, the odds that they do exist greatly outweigh the odds that they don't, I believe.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...e-aliens-are-silent-because-they-re-dead-quot
 
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