Renamed - Discussion on RSO responsibilities

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This does bring up another point - should a questionable rocket fly? The immediate thought is no. And in most cases I'd agree, it's a bad idea. Surely, not in a drag race. Also- it should not be at a major launch. Too many people. Also, popping an N10K in a paper Nike smoke is more "hold my beer and watch this" then pushing the edge.

So if you were indeed pushing the edge, and had a legitimate belief you had a chance to make it, it should be done at a much smaller launch as the only flight going. And you'd have to convince the RSo it had a chance to survive.

Everything in this hobby will not be 100% safe. But when that number starts to creep down, you have to mitigate risk. Popping a risky flight on a populated field and with other birds in the air is going the wrong way on that scale.
 
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Anyone ever given any thought to having an RSO certification? Speaking from a Tripoli point of view... It wouldn't be required to have a "certified" RSO act as RSO for a launch, but someone who puts in the extra work to earn an RSO badge (or whatever) would be known as someone more knowledgeable and preferable to act as RSO, especially for marginal or questionable projects. 90%of flights don't need special oversights, but it would be nice to have a way to identify those who are more knowledgeable... I've been working on a proposal for this idea for awhile. Almost done writing it up formally. This seemed like a good time to bring it up
 
Anyone ever given any thought to having an RSO certification? Speaking from a Tripoli point of view... It wouldn't be required to have a "certified" RSO act as RSO for a launch, but someone who puts in the extra work to earn an RSO badge (or whatever) would be known as someone more knowledgeable and preferable to act as RSO, especially for marginal or questionable projects. 90%of flights don't need special oversights, but it would be nice to have a way to identify those who are more knowledgeable... I've been working on a proposal for this idea for awhile. Almost done writing it up formally. This seemed like a good time to bring it up

We could call them TAP's....

Tony
 
We could call them TAP's....

:roll:

Or we could get some kind of person in each club to oversee things and be a go-to. Maybe call them prefects.



Also....RSO's must be L2. there's your certification. Look at this, it's fairly in depth. - https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/RSO Guidelines v1.0.pdf

Edit: I decided to post it here just in case people don't want to take the jump. There are PLENTY of rules in place to ensure safety. We simply need to enforce them, and use the tools we already have.
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Preface
The following RSO Guidelines are not meant to add to, subtract from, or supercede any of the Tripoli Safety Codes. This document is meant only to be a guide to help persons in the position of Range Safety Officer to perform a thorough inspection and promote safe practices.
INTRODUCTION
The goal of the Range Safety Officer (RSO) is to minimize the risks to personnel and property involved in the handling, preparation, and launch operations of model and high power rocket launches.
The flight safety goals are to review the intended flight of all vehicles, and attempt to prevent any incidents that might endanger human life, cause damage to property, or result in embarrassment to Tripoli and rocketry at large. Although the risk of such an incident can never be completely eliminated, the flight should be carefully reviewed to minimize the risks involved while enhancing the probability for attaining a successful launch.
The RSO is responsible for assuring that the Tripoli safety policy and RSO procedures are not violated during operations and to ensure that acceptable risks are understood and are within reasonable limits.
The Flight Safety Review is to be performed by a Range Safety Officer prior to any launch at a sanctioned Tripoli event. This review assesses the quantitative and qualitative aspects of the proposed vehicle flight. If a flight is deemed unsafe the RSO has authority to stop preparations, hold a launch, or terminate a launch. A flight deemed unsafe must not be launched under any circumstances.
Safety is the responsibility of all Tripoli Rocketry Association members. This idea must be instilled into all flyers and exemplified by Range Safety Officers. A concerted effort by all persons involved will minimize the risks inherent in performing rocket related activities.
RSO REQUIREMENTS
The RSO must be a current member of Tripoli Rocketry Association in good standings, certified level two or above, experienced in high power rocketry, and knowledgeable about rocket theory, hobby rocket motors and the high power rocketry safety regulations (Tripoli Safety Code, NFPA 1127, etc.).
The RSO should be familiar with the FAA Certificate of Waiver holder and must be approved to act on that persons behalf in the RSO capacity. Any discrepancies regarding the Range or Flight Operations should be brought to the attention of the Waiver Holder who will have the final decision making authority.
RSO PROCEDURES
CARDINAL PRINCIPLE: Limit the exposure to hazardous situations to a minimum number of persons for a minimum time, consistent with safe and efficient operations.

The RSO shall carry out the Cardinal Principle through their monitoring and execution of the Range Operations and Flight Operations outlined below. The FAA Certificate of Waiver holder, who has the ultimate authority to stop any or all launches, should address any questions or concerns.
Large Launch Provision
Should the size and scope of a particular launch be greater than the abilities of a single RSO to perform both the Range Operations and Flight Operations, these duties may be split amongst several persons. A single individual that is assigned Range Operations will be responsible for all of the duties that fall thereunder and should be the waiver holder if possible. This person will then be known as the Launch Safety Officer (LSO). Accordingly, an RSO or group of RSO’s shall be assigned Flight Operations. They will be responsible for all of the duties that fall thereunder.
Range Operations
The RSO/LSO is responsible for determining the status of range operations. Before any launch begins, or in the event of a breech, the following criteria must be assessed. If not met, it is up to the RSO/LSO to halt any further launches until a safe condition is returned.
Site
The RSO shall make a cursory examination of the Range area to ensure that adequate barriers, markings, and safety measures exist to prevent unauthorized person from entering into the range and alert authorized person as to any hazardous situations.
The RSO shall make themselves aware of the largest motor that can be supported by the site area given the table in the High Power Rocketry Safety Code.
The RSO has the authority to open and close the range to any and all personnel
Airspace
Where applicable (i.e. when entering controlled airspace):
1. The RSO must have knowledge that a current Certificate of Waiver issued by the U.S. Department of Transportation is in force and applies to the sections of the Federal Aviation Regulations that will be bypassed.
2. The RSO should have knowledge of the Special Provisions of the Certificate of Waiver and that they are being adhered to.
3. The RSO must have knowledge that a Notice to Airman has been issued for the date and times of the launch.
4. The RSO must not allow launches when aircraft are within a three-mile radius of the projected flight path.

Weather
The RSO must have clear and convincing evidence that the following constraints are not violated.
1. Do not launch if ground level winds exceed 20 mph.
2. Do not launch if the planned flight path will carry the vehicle through any clouds
3. Do not launch if any type of lightning is detected within 10 miles of the launch site
Time Interval Determination Method
· Visual conformation of lightning flash
· Count number of seconds until you hear thunder · Divide the result by five (5)
· Result is in miles
GOOD SENSE RULE: Even when constraints are not violated, if any other hazardous weather conditions exist, the RSO may hold at any time based on the instability of the weather.
Launch Systems
The RSO shall familiarize themselves with the types of launch pads available ensuring that they do not approve any flight for which there isn’t a sufficient pad.
The RSO shall make a cursory examination of the Range area to ensure that the pads available have been placed appropriately according to the Safety Code.
The RSO should become familiar with the launch control systems and ensure that sufficient safety interlocks are in place to prevent accidental ignitions.
Emergency
The RSO shall confirm that adequate safety equipment is on site including a portable fire extinguisher, first aid kit, and cellular communications.
The RSO shall have available to them contact number for local fire departments, police, emergency medical, and power authority personnel.
Flight Operations
The RSO is to perform a Flight Safety Review (FSR) of all rockets intended for launch. Upon completion of the FSR the RSO will make a flight readiness decision. If the flight is approved this

should be indicated by the RSO initialing the flight card. If minor modifications will bring the rocket to flight ready status the flyer should be informed of the required modifications and asked to return only after taking appropriate corrective actions. If a situation arises that the RSO is unfamiliar with and/or feels uncomfortable making a judgment call on, it is their obligation the find one or more experienced Tripoli members on the field to consult with. As always, the final decision rests with the Certificate of Waiver Holder.
Flight Safety Review
Safety First –
At all times prior to a safe firing position on the rod, rail, tower, or other suitable ground support facility, the igniter shall not be inside the motor, and all ejection charge related electronics must be off!
Exception: Igniters used in the initiation of upper stages and those of complex clusters may be inserted early but must be shunted to avoid accidental ignition.
Flyer –
By asking to see a current membership card:
Verify that the individual flying the rocket is a current member in good standing of Tripoli Rocketry Association or the National Association or Rocketry.
Verify the certification level of the individual and that they are flying within their certification level or attempting a new certification level.
Observe that the individual does not appear impaired by the use of drugs or alcohol. Under no circumstances should someone who has participated in the consumption of alcoholic beverages be allowed to enter the range or launch a rocket.
Flight Card –
Verify that an applicable flight card exists, is filled out in a legible manner, and indicates all of the pertinent flight data including but not limited to flyer name and TRA number, physical vehicle parameters, motor configuration, and recovery systems.
Special attention should be given to flights that are indicated as Heads-up or Certification. In the case of a Level 3 certification attempt, verify the presence of associated TAP member.
History –
Ask the flyer if they have flown this particular rocket and motor combination. If they have, ask for the results of that flight. If not, ask if they have flown a similar rocket/motor combination and the outcome.

Use the results of this line of questioning to determine into how much detail the remainder of the FSR will go.
IMPORTANT: By no means does a response of “I’ve flown it just like this perfectly before” exempt the flyer from the remainder of the FSR.
Propulsion –
Verify that the motor used is a currently certified motor or that it is on the consumer list.
Verify that the total installed power does not exceed the limitations of the field.
Verify, as best possible, that the vehicle is capable of withstanding the forward thrust that will be produced by the motor.
Verify that the initial thrust of the motor chosen will provide at least a 5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio. This can be done by one of three ways:
1. The flyer can provide documentation that shows the initial thrust produced by the motor. This can then be compared to the GLOW (Gross Lift Off Weight) of the rocket as presented.
2. The peak thrust of the motor can be assumed to be at least equal to the average thrust as indicated in the motor designation. In this case, the average Newtons produced by the motor should be converted to pounds and compared to the GLOW of the rocket as presented.
3. A printout from a flight prediction software package can be presented. In this case the prediction output should indicate the thrust-to-weight of > 5, the initial acceleration of > 5 g’s, or the velocity of the rocket at the end of the rod/rail/tower > 45 f/s. The motor installed and the weight of the rocket must also be indicated and shall be verified to match the presented rocket.Verify that a suitable means of aft retention is used to keep the motor, or motors, in place during the flight and recovery. This is of particular importance in parallel staged cluster flights. In such cases, special attention should be given to providing a positive form of retention that will not allow motors to become dislodged during initial acceleration forces.
If a cluster of motors is being used, the possible failure modes should be explored. If any of the possible scenarios create an extra hazardous situation, additional precautions should be taken.
Verify that a suitable means of ignition has been chosen and will provide a safe and reliable motor ignition. All igniters should be shorted until just prior to connection to launch control equipment. In the event of a hang-fire (failure of the igniter to light the motor), the rocket should not be approached for a minimum of two minutes.

Construction –
Check the structural integrity of the vehicle including the body tubes, nose cone, and fins to ensure
that they are adequate to withstand the forces anticipated during the flight and recovery.
Verify the fit of the nose cone. Whenever possible hang the rocket by the nose cone. The vehicle should stay in place. With agitation however, the nose should come free or begin to come free. Exception: When shear pins are being employed ask the flyer to explain how they determined the number, size, and type of shear pins to use and what special provisions have been taken in regards to calculation of ejection charges.
Compare the fin material, stiffness, size and attachment method to the projected flight velocity and acceleration to avoid the potential for excessive fin flutter and any structural failures. If a questionable situation arises, consider assigning the flyer to a pad that is further away than the minimum setback. Special consideration should be given the flights that are predicted to exceed mach 1.
Verify that a suitable launch guidance system is employed. Take into consideration the overall dimensions of the vehicle, the total weight of the vehicle, the predicted acceleration, and the current wind conditions. In the case of launch lugs or rail guides, ensure that mounting of the lug or button is sufficient to withstand the loads.
In the case of a two-stage vehicle, check the strength of the inter-stage connection. Verify that is will not buckle under the acceleration loads, and that it will separate as intended.
Stability –
Verify that the rocket is of a stable design.
1. If it has flown in the current configuration with a similar motor and was stable it will likely remain stable.
2. If the design employs canards or unusually small fins be extra careful with the stability verification.
3. Providing the Cp(center of pressure) calculation by Barrowman or other suitable calculation method should be compared to the Cg(center of gravity) as found on the flight ready vehicle. If stability calculations indicate a Cg, its accuracy should always be verified.
4. If no calculations are available or it is an untested design, use past experiences and call upon the expertise of others at the launch in coming to consensus about stability. If the stability is uncertain on an unusual design, ask for proof of stability. Any marginally stable rockets should be treated with extra concern and additional launch safety precautions should be taken.
Recovery –

Verify that the parachutes selected for recovery are rated for the weight of the vehicle and the expected conditions at deployment. Confirm that the parachutes intended for the final descent phase to the ground will not allow a decent rate of >30f/s.
Verify that there is an adequate system in place to contain all of the separable parts of the rocket and parachutes at the forces anticipated during deployment. This includes adequate length of retaining cord, strength of retaining cord, and hard points for recovery system attachment.
Ensure that adequate protection is in place to prevent the hot ejection gases from causing burn damage to retaining cords, parachutes, and other vital components.
If motor delay is used to actuate recovery system, verify that the delay length was properly selected for the motor/rocket system. Do not allow the rocket to fly if the flyer does not know the reason why they have chosen the installed delay.
If electronics are being used to activate the recovery system, verify that an externally controllable method is being used to turn electronics on and that a known good battery is in use.
Summary
An RSO’s responsibility is to limit the exposure to hazardous situations to a minimum number of persons for a minimum time, consistent with safe and efficient operations.
In the pursuit of this ideal, we must adhere to the safety code and do our best to make sure that others around us do the same. In doing so, we will make our hobby as safe as possible for those involved and for spectators, thus ensuring the continued growth and enjoyment for all involved.
Never over-rule safety for the sake of friends, fun, or convenience.
Written by Derek Deville under the direction of the Tripoli BOD
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We could call them TAP's....

Tony

Tony, that is true, but some launches do not have TAPS available. Also, it would be not be typical to involve a TAP member in discussions of a rocket that falls under the m motor level. Obviously one could discuss with a TAP a project under the m threshold, but just not common in my experience.
 
Anyone ever given any thought to having an RSO certification? ...<snip>...but it would be nice to have a way to identify those who are more knowledgeable... I've been working on a proposal for this idea for awhile. Almost done writing it up formally. This seemed like a good time to bring it up



Actually there is a process in place - NAR TSO Program
 
At NAR events I constantly find a shortage of TAPs. Aeropac and TCC never have a problem, but other launches I go to, TAPs seem like some kind of hidden secret society.

That is why I proposed to Tripoli that they allow L3 members to sign off on L1 certifications, not sure if that got any traction. It would help open up the club at the introductory level.
 
Edit: I decided to post it here just in case people don't want to take the jump. There are PLENTY of rules in place to ensure safety. We simply need to enforce them, and use the tools we already have.
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Hah, plenty indeed. In fact I would say this falls under the category of so many wordy rules, that half way through most peoples eyes glaze over and they quit caring.
 
Hah, plenty indeed. In fact I would say this falls under the category of so many wordy rules, that half way through most peoples eyes glaze over and they quit caring.

Agreed... I was thinking, how does anyone know who has read all these rules, and if they've read them, how does anyone know if they actually understand them?
TAPs are hard to find, and even harder to become one.
 
Agreed... I was thinking, how does anyone know who has read all these rules, and if they've read them, how does anyone know if they actually understand them?
TAPs are hard to find, and even harder to become one.

Which is why it's important for clubs to have the document printed out, and a few other tools for RSO's in a binder. Chute decent rates, Thrust to weight ratios, etc. I lean on my phone for most of that data, but having it printed out isn't a bad idea.

As for understanding, they've been tested for L2. They should understand all these concepts. Reading that pdf file didn't seem all that cumbersome to me. We don't need anything new... We just need RSO's to read that file, and enforce what they already know to pass an L2 cert. At URRF and LDRS, each flight card had a checklist on the back to assist those preforming safety checks with the inspection process.
 
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Not sure I've seen where TAP's are only for M flights. I'd use them for any flight that I or some one else had questions about. I've had RSO's come and get me or another club member if a rocket above their "pay grade" come through while they were doing RSO duty. As an AeroPac member I've RSO'ed a few large and complicated projects over the years. A few of them have been above my "pay grade". I just went and got a couple other club members to help me RSO those rockets. As an RSO it's better to ask for help then to let some iffy or over your pay grade go by.

If you don't have TAP members handy, grab the more experienced club members or fliers there to help out.

A launch is a group effort.

Tony
 
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At NAR events I constantly find a shortage of TAPs. Aeropac and TCC never have a problem, but other launches I go to, TAPs seem like some kind of hidden secret society.

That is why I proposed to Tripoli that they allow L3 members to sign off on L1 certifications, not sure if that got any traction. It would help open up the club at the introductory level.
Why would you expect to find a TRA TAP at a NAR launch?

One NAR L2 or L3, or one NAR L1 and a second NAR senior member, can witness and certify a NAR L1 candidate's flight.

One NAR L3, or 1 NAR L2 and a second NAR L1 member, can witness and certify a NAR L2 candidate's flight.

One NAR L3CC and a second NAR member, L2 or L3 certified, can witness and certify a NAR L3 candidate's flight.

A TRA TAP would also have to be a NAR member to function as a member of a NAR certification team.

Bob
 
Not sure I've seen where TAP's are only for M flights. I'd use them for any flight that I or some one else had questions about. I've had RSO's come and get me or another club member if a rocket above their "pay grade" come through while they were doing RSO duty. As an AeroPac member I've RSO'ed a few large and complicated projects over the years. A few of them have been above my "pay grade". I just went and got a couple other club members to help me RSO those rockets. As an RSO it's better to ask for help then to let some iffy or over your pay grade go by.

If you don't have TAP members handy, grab the more experienced club members or fliers there to help out.

A launch is a group effort.

Tony

Tony, I agree with you TAPS are there as a tech resource. What I was getting at is that most people really think of them as the people I need to work with to get my L3 cert versus a wider ranging purpose.
 
Why would you expect to find a TRA TAP at a NAR launch?

Because there are simply not that many rocket people in the world, and not that many launches we can go to especially around the immensely populated bay area despite the huge numbers of engineers and other science minded people live here. I do not know what they look like in your part of the world but I have never seen a NAR launch without a handful of Tripoli L3 members in attendance. Finding a TAP can be tough, though.

I feel that Tripoli fits my mindset and goals more than NAR, and encourage others to join, but the overly restrictive L1 signoff procedure closes down the introductory side of the hobby. Simultaneously NAR rules may be too open. The two clubs would do well to move more in line with each other over certification, at least as long as they are respecting member cards in both directions. Maybe close down that lifetime reinstatement loophole too, but that is another conversation.
 
L2 certification is required by both Tripoli and NAR to perform as an RSO, thus should be considered RSO certification. CAR actually has formal RSO training. When in doubt ask the launch director, Prefect, or a TAP or L3CC member.
We really don't need to add more certifications; we just need people to take seriously the responsibility that accompanies those we have now.
I don't feel NAR and TRA need to have the same rules. If that were the case why have two separate organizations? They have historically had different philosophies, although safety is the priority for both.
Finally, every rocket we launch has a statistical possibility of some kind of problem, no matter how diligent the flyer has been. Acknowledging that, whether humorously or in offhand comment is a way that people sometimes deal with stress. That doesn't bother me. Intending to crash is bad, but planning for a safe outcome in case it happens should always be done.
 
Because there are simply not that many rocket people in the world, and not that many launches we can go to especially around the immensely populated bay area despite the huge numbers of engineers and other science minded people live here. I do not know what they look like in your part of the world but I have never seen a NAR launch without a handful of Tripoli L3 members in attendance. Finding a TAP can be tough, though.

I feel that Tripoli fits my mindset and goals more than NAR, and encourage others to join, but the overly restrictive L1 signoff procedure closes down the introductory side of the hobby. Simultaneously NAR rules may be too open. The two clubs would do well to move more in line with each other over certification, at least as long as they are respecting member cards in both directions. Maybe close down that lifetime reinstatement loophole too, but that is another conversation.
You are correct that there not that many serious rocket folk in the US: my estimate that it is ~8,500 considering that NAR has ~6300 members, and TRA has ~3800 member and ~40% of TRA members also belong to NAR....and the annual dues for both organizations differs by only $2! However I don't see a major a difference in mindsets and goals of both organizations. Both NAR and TRA are strong advocates for the hobby and fight side-by-side to encourage its growth.

The only significant differences between NAR and TRA are:
  • NAR has a model rocketry code and TRA doesn't; and
  • TRA has Research and NAR doesn't.

Beyond that the differences are minor.
  • In NAR high power certifications do not expire, but in TRA they do after a years lapse in TRA membership.
  • In TRA, only a Prefect can witness and sign TRA L1 and L2 certification paperwork whereas in NAR, any NAR L3, or team of senior NAR members, with at least one certified to the candidate's testing level, can witness and sign the NAR certification papers.
  • L3 certification requirements for NAR and TRA are virtually identical, where a TAP or L3CC member is required to witness and sign the L3 paperwork.

Considering that a second membership in either TRA or NAR is the cost of a J reload, it's inexplicable to me that most HP folks don't belong to both organizations.
  • You can certify with either organization, and the certification is recognized by the other organization.
  • If your TRA membership lapses for more than a year, once you are certified in NAR, when you rejoin TRA your NAR certification is honored.
  • You have all the advantages of both organizations, and I don't see any disadvantages.

And there isn't a valid cost argument not to belong to both. If you can't afford the extra $61+/-$1 for a second membership to support the hobby, you can't afford to launch high power rockets.

Bob
 
Bob, I think your argument to belong to both orgs is fine except for the end portion re cost. I am only a member or TRA, and for my purposes that works. You say the cost is only a J motor- considering I might fly 10 high power rockets a year these days due to budget restrictions the j motor is a substantial portion of my annual rocket budget. With that in mind I think your statement is frankly
presumptuous, and a bit arrogant. I fly within my means, and will not go into debt to do so. By your thinking, I should not fly at all because I do not want to spend about 10% of my annual budget on a membership to NAR, which is of little use to me in my situation.
 
I agree. I'd rather fly one more motor than belong to both. I understand both fight for us, but I'm only riding one horse.
 
OK... weird question.

If a person say qualifies for L2, passes test, flys rocket, etc and then makes some really bad choices, a couple that could have been serious and hurt people; is there any way that they could be knocked back down to L1??

Rob / S1 putting on RSO hat
Not knowing the specifics, I'd say that the RSO should take care to ask more questions about a rocket's specifics prior to his next launch, assuming that it was an incomplete knowledge of those specifics that led to RSO launch approval of the rocket(s) flown with "really bad choices" made. I say this only because you aren't specific about the incident(s) showing bad judgement.
 
Not knowing the specifics, I'd say that the RSO should take care to ask more questions about a rocket's specifics prior to his next launch, assuming that it was an incomplete knowledge of those specifics that led to RSO launch approval of the rocket(s) flown with "really bad choices" made. I say this only because you aren't specific about the incident(s) showing bad judgement.

Without resorting to opening up the rocket and checking, the RSO has to trust the answers given to them by the flier. If the RSO asks a question such as "are the electronics and charges made safe" and gets the answer "yes", then later finds that for one reason or another, the flier had brought live charges to the table, then there was nothing that he could have done at the time, especially if there were no external switches to physically check.
I also think it is the RSO's responsibility to point out errors in design and help fix them (either immediately, or give the flier knowledge that they could use to fix the prob themselves).
For example, the flier builds the AV bay with altimeters, etc, drills the vent holes correctly and mounts two through the wall switches, then changes their mind, and replaces the switch with an internal one but leaves the two 1/2" holes in the AV bay that were for the switches. When that rocket is brought to the RSO table, there is a responsibility with the RSO that should lead him to offer advice and education on the problems that would be created with oversize pressure sampling holes. There should also be questions raised about the gap in knowledge that the flier obviously has whilst still attempting to fly.
No-one wants a high power rocket to fail. They also really don't want someone else's rocket to fail in a way that could be damaging to people or property.
 
You are correct that there not that many serious rocket folk in the US: my estimate that it is ~8,500 considering that NAR has ~6300 members, and TRA has ~3800 member and ~40% of TRA members also belong to NAR....and the annual dues for both organizations differs by only $2! However I don't see a major a difference in mindsets and goals of both organizations. Both NAR and TRA are strong advocates for the hobby and fight side-by-side to encourage its growth.

The only significant differences between NAR and TRA are:
  • NAR has a model rocketry code and TRA doesn't; and
  • TRA has Research and NAR doesn't.

Beyond that the differences are minor.
  • In NAR high power certifications do not expire, but in TRA they do after a years lapse in TRA membership.
  • In TRA, only a Prefect can witness and sign TRA L1 and L2 certification paperwork whereas in NAR, any NAR L3, or team of senior NAR members, with at least one certified to the candidate's testing level, can witness and sign the NAR certification papers.
  • L3 certification requirements for NAR and TRA are virtually identical, where a TAP or L3CC member is required to witness and sign the L3 paperwork.

Considering that a second membership in either TRA or NAR is the cost of a J reload, it's inexplicable to me that most HP folks don't belong to both organizations.
  • You can certify with either organization, and the certification is recognized by the other organization.
  • If your TRA membership lapses for more than a year, once you are certified in NAR, when you rejoin TRA your NAR certification is honored.
  • You have all the advantages of both organizations, and I don't see any disadvantages.

And there isn't a valid cost argument not to belong to both. If you can't afford the extra $61+/-$1 for a second membership to support the hobby, you can't afford to launch high power rockets.

Bob

I appreciate a well thought out argument and support both NAR and Tripoli, but what is missing here is that many interested on the entry side of the hobby are not debating between clubs, they are debating between rockets, RC boats, and drones or whatever else is cool at the moment. They are fickle. Telling them to join two clubs for one hobby is in essence encouraging them to go pilot RC boats instead, at least if those guys are any more sane than we are.

I suppose it impacts Tripoli more than NAR, since I find myself recommending NAR to more and more prospective L1 flyers despite my personal preference for Tripoli, due to NAR certification being easier to deal with. Either way it does us all well to unify regulation as well as open up the entry end of the hobby. None of us get to fly forever, we have to bring in new folks if we want to see it keep going.
 
If you are unsure as a RSO about a rocket you do not need to ask a TAP.
You just need someone who is competent enough. I know a lot of people at our launches who regularly fly Level 2 rockets without crashes and have an Engineering background. If you start a discussion with some of them about a questionable rocket, you will likely come to a conclusion, even if no TAP is there. Also you know the reputation of specific persons, which determines how many questions you have to ask a flyer.

Btw. the NAR clearly says it is a national US organization, do they even have any L3CC in europe?
 
If you are unsure as a RSO about a rocket you do not need to ask a TAP.
You just need someone who is competent enough. I know a lot of people at our launches who regularly fly Level 2 rockets without crashes and have an Engineering background. If you start a discussion with some of them about a questionable rocket, you will likely come to a conclusion, even if no TAP is there. Also you know the reputation of specific persons, which determines how many questions you have to ask a flyer.

Btw. the NAR clearly says it is a national US organization, do they even have any L3CC in europe?

No L3CC members are listed for foreign countries.
https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-3-certification/level-3-certification-committee/
We do have foreign NAR members though. If a NAR member in a foreign country wants me to come witness an L3 attempt I would love to!
 
UKRA / IMR have the idea of "qualified committee" although I didn't dig further as to what that entails.
 
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