Renamed - Discussion on RSO responsibilities

OK... weird question.

If a person say qualifies for L2, passes test, flys rocket, etc and then makes some really bad choices, a couple that could have been serious and hurt people; is there any way that they could be knocked back down to L1??

Rob / S1 putting on RSO hat

This is an interesting question- I'm not an expert so I'm mostly here to see what other's say. It does seem well within the rights of the club to ban a person from flying if he or she consistently demonstrates bad judgment and poor decision making ability. Doesn't prevent this person from buying motors and taking them elsewhere, but at least the immediate area and people are provided some degree of protection?

I can ask tomorrow night if NAR has a way to do it. Randy of eRockets knows a lot of the NAR regs.

If it's at a sanctioned launch, the responsibility is on the RSO and LCO to ensure things are being done according to the safety code. If it's not a sanctioned launch you'd have a difficult time justifying either club taking action.

just done some reading myself.

It appears that, at a club level, the RSO has the power to stop an individual from flying a rocket. This would also translate to, if the RSO did not feel that the person could safely fly that rocket / motor combination, they could stop the person from launching. Therefore, RSO doesnt feel comfortable (with reason) to let person A fly L2 motors, then they can limit that person to L1 flights only.

Sound right??

As the RSO any flight is fundamentally at your discretion. I am not saying this should abused, but you are the safety officer, and you are the final word. You need to be knowledgable, be able to assess things in a reasonable time frame, and want to allow people to fly yet be willing to say no.

markkoelsch said:

As the RSO any flight is fundamentally at your discretion. I am not saying this should abused, but you are the safety officer, and you are the final word. You need to be knowledgable, be able to assess things in a reasonable time frame, and want to allow people to fly yet be willing to say no.

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.... and be aware that it is your responsibility if something then goes awry with a flight you signed off on.

The ultimate responsibility for any given flight lies with the flier...

Teddy

Salvage-1 said:

just done some reading myself.

It appears that, at a club level, the RSO has the power to stop an individual from flying a rocket. This would also translate to, if the RSO did not feel that the person could safely fly that rocket / motor combination, they could stop the person from launching. Therefore, RSO doesnt feel comfortable (with reason) to let person A fly L2 motors, then they can limit that person to L1 flights only.

Sound right??

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This is exactly my understanding. I do not believe there is a way to revoke certification, on an organizational level, other than expiration.

watermelonman said:

This is exactly my understanding. I do not believe there is a way to revoke certification, on an organizational level, other than expiration.

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I believe the term is un-enrolled. They give the enrolment fees back in full and it has happened...can't remember the specifics...

Slightly off topic but I have proposed to TRA BOD that certification should be renewed periodically by flying a rocket in your certification level every two or three years. Nothing overly restrictive, I proposed that it not be required to be announced in advance. Just if you are a L3, you make a L3 flight and have the RSO or LCO sign off after the flight and be sent into HQ. The intent was preventing someone from certifying L3 and never make another L3 flight again. This way, after the time lapsed, they would revert to the previous certification level. Of course it was not implemented.

onebadhawk said:

The ultimate responsibility for any given flight lies with the flier...

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Yes, but our system relies on checks along the way to a flight that are designed to keep the hobby and events safe. The club is responsible for making sure flights are run safely. To this end, they make sure there are RSO's and launch directors to oversee the operations of the event. And they absolutely bear responsibility. If you're sitting in that RSO tent signing off on things, There's no immunity there. You have the responsibility to check the rocket. Obviously a CATO is not going to come back at you....but lets say a stager with timers? maybe. an unstable rocket? oh yea. something folds in half? debatable, but do you want to debate that?


I'd say you couldn't blanket ban someone from flying L2 motors. But you CAN look at a rocket and give a specific reason you don't think it should fly. If the person has a problem with that, they can take it up with the launch director.


and ahhh.... noticed this:

Eyesinthesky said:

Slightly off topic but I have proposed to TRA BOD that certification should be renewed periodically by flying a rocket in your certification level every two or three years. Nothing overly restrictive, I proposed that it not be required to be announced in advance. Just if you are a L3, you make a L3 flight and have the RSO or LCO sign off after the flight and be sent into HQ. The intent was preventing someone from certifying L3 and never make another L3 flight again. This way, after the time lapsed, they would revert to the previous certification level. Of course it was not implemented.

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Interesting idea, but as someone who's about to get his L3... I have no plan on flying another M any time soon... Requiring me to do so to maintain an L3 cert doesn't make sense. As long as I'm an active rocketeer I shouldn't lose my L3 cert.

CzTeacherMan said:

Interesting idea, but as someone who's about to attempt his L3... I have no plan on flying another M any time soon... Requiring me to do so to maintain an L3 cert doesn't make sense. As long as I'm an active rocketeer I shouldn't lose my L3 cert.

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Fixed that for ya

DizWolf said:

and ahhh.... noticed this:

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Completely different story...... worthy in its own right! :wink::lol:


I don't want to go into specifics, but I / we are trying to be helpful to an individual in a way in which he re-proves to us that he is capable of safe L2 / research flights.

I will leave it to the reader to research a flight nearly a decade ago that occurred where the L3 designer/flyer basically stated on camera before the flight, that the rocket being launched was not flight worthy. And, the flight was a disaster. Afterwards there was talk of removing his L3 and even barring him from TRA/NAR. Frankly, I don't recall what, if any, action was taken. But yes, it was serious.

Salvage-1 said:

Completely different story...... worthy in its own right! :wink::lol:

I don't want to go into specifics, but I / we are trying to be helpful to an individual in a way in which he re-proves to us that he is capable of safe L2 / research flights.

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it was just too easy to pass up


I agree. if someone is having issues, it's time to pull them aside and say "look, you need to fix this....and learn how to do X better or you can't fly like this"

If it's a recovery issue- I'd go over the setup, and make them pack it in front of me. Then make sure the rod angle would allow for a ballistic return in a safe location. Things of that nature.

If it's an EX motor thing, that gets a bit more hairy, but if they can't tell you the Kn and expected behavior/ motor details and info.... I'd say no go.

Years ago when I flew with FLASH Rocketry in La Belle, FL, we banned a member that was unsafe. Virtually everything he flew or I should say tried to either CATO'ed on the pad, land sharked or pranged. We gave him several chances to improve but he failed to do so.

I'll never forget the moment when he had a graphite nozzle blow out on the pad only to admit afterwards the nozzle was cracked to begin with.:eyeroll::eyeroll::eyeroll:

He then installed another nozzle in the motor which was obviously too big and the rocket took off, arced over and pranged.

CzTeacherMan said:

Interesting idea, but as someone who's about to get his L3... I have no plan on flying another M any time soon... Requiring me to do so to maintain an L3 cert doesn't make sense. As long as I'm an active rocketeer I shouldn't lose my L3 cert.

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No need to worry, as mentioned, the idea fell on deaf ears. But the intention is to maintain proficiency so a supposedly knowledgeable flier giving advice to junior fliers was actually experienced. The same idea with drivers license, that renewal was not automatic. At least some states require a vision test before renewing driver license. There are some L3 fliers that haven't flown a M motor in a very long time since certifying. Perhaps the certification could be 'deactivated' instead of revoked. Anyway, you're safe.

Eyesinthesky said:

No need to worry, as mentioned, the idea fell on deaf ears. But the intention is to maintain proficiency so a supposedly knowledgeable flier giving advice to junior fliers was actually experienced. The same idea with drivers license, that renewal was not automatic. At least some states require a vision test before renewing driver license. There are some L3 fliers that haven't flown a M motor in a very long time since certifying. Perhaps the certification could be 'deactivated' instead of revoked. Anyway, you're safe.

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This idea assumes you need to fly M's to maintain proficiency in flying them. I disagree.

I also think any sort of required flights is unnecessary.

Drivers don't have to pass an RSO for every drive. Every single flight has to be looked at by someone else. L3 flights aren't just walking out to the pad. There is a system in place to deal with this. All we need are RSO's who don't pencil whip the card trusting the flier. It doesn't need to be any more complicated.

Salvage-1 said:

OK... weird question.

If a person say qualifies for L2, passes test, flys rocket, etc and then makes some really bad choices, a couple that could have been serious and hurt people; is there any way that they could be knocked back down to L1??

Rob / S1 putting on RSO hat

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At a local launch, the RSO is the final authority. If an egregious offense has occurred, and if further action is deemed appropriate, then the incident needs to be formally reported to the national offices. If the Executive of NAR or the BOD of Tripoli agree that further action is required, both the NAR and TRA have within their by-laws procedures to discipline a member or to revoke a persons membership, and both organizations require that any such action be conducted at the national level. Details are in the NAR and TRA by-laws.

Bob

bobkrech said:

At a local launch, the RSO is the final authority. If an egregious offense has occurred, and if further action is deemed appropriate, then the incident needs to be formally reported to the national offices. If the Executive of NAR or the BOD of Tripoli agree that further action is required, both the NAR and TRA have within their by-laws procedures to discipline a member or to revoke a persons membership, and both organizations require that any such action be conducted at the national level. Details are in the NAR and TRA by-laws.

Bob

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Took the words right out of my mouth! That being said there are plenty of "special projects" that have been flown where the outcome was known in advance most likely to be less than ideal. Even have motor manufactures challenging fliers to build a rocket good enough to prevent shredding. Some clubs fly those motors in drag races. Must be OK as long as there is no property damage or no one gets hurt.

[video=youtube;ogYrvEEM0Ts]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogYrvEEM0Ts[/video] https://www.maniacworld.com/What-really-happened-at-the-x-wing-launch.html

rcktnut said:

Some clubs fly those motors in drag races. Must be OK as long as there is no property damage or no one gets hurt.

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Recent rule changes make massive drag races pretty hard to do. At LDRS34 Someone wanted to drag a bunch of V2's on H's. By the Tripoli safety code currently in place, we would have had to be something stupid like a mile away. We pretty much just said "no drags."

dave carver said:

I believe the term is un-enrolled. They give the enrolment fees back in full and it has happened...can't remember the specifics...

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I am not too surprised but see that as much more severe than a single level drop. It must have been preceded by multiple boneheaded choices and warnings between.

Eyesinthesky said:

Slightly off topic but I have proposed to TRA BOD that certification should be renewed periodically by flying a rocket in your certification level every two or three years. Nothing overly restrictive, I proposed that it not be required to be announced in advance. Just if you are a L3, you make a L3 flight and have the RSO or LCO sign off after the flight and be sent into HQ. The intent was preventing someone from certifying L3 and never make another L3 flight again. This way, after the time lapsed, they would revert to the previous certification level. Of course it was not implemented.

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I would be down for that, but more like 3-5 years than 1-2. Honestly maintaining certification levels is a significant dollar draw for the clubs, and we cannot look past that effect. Plus for many of us M+ flights are only an annual activity to begin with, and it is easy to imagine needing to miss LDRS/BALLS/etc a year or two in a row. Still, you certainly do have a point in that people fall off in skill and safety when they do not actively practice.

I know of at least one flyer who used to launch around here who has reputedly been "Blacklisted" from several of the regional clubs due to his cavalier attitude about rules and safety, as well as his flight performance. He's an L3CC/TAP, but the most common quote I have about him is "Once a cowboy, always a cowboy". I wouldn't know him if he walked up to me right now, and everyone agrees that he knows his $#!+, both rocketry and propellant mixology. I don't know the history, and the shame is, I think I have more to learn from him than a negative example, but it's a self-inflicted injury.

Sometimes the cult of personality allows bad things to happen at the RSO/Launch Director table. I'd say it's up to the club, and peer pressure. Repeated and/or egregious lapses should have the force of club officers review forwarded up to the national organizations. Not all of the responsibilities of club officers are good or easy.

To the OP, sounds like you all are attempting mentorship to cure some personal performance/safety issues. Some folks are salvageable, some don't want to be. I think you're doing a good thing trying.

Saying "no" to anyone could be difficult on occasion because as everyone knows, "RSO Lives Matter"! :wink:

I have said no a couple of times. People did not like it, but it was a clear cut case of stuff not being flight worthy. If people have a problem with that then they need to get over themselves. If they have a problem with me over it then so be it. If you are the RSO you are responsible for the safety of everyone at the launch- if you cannot accept that and act accordingly then you should not RSO.

Makes me wonder if the rules for certification shouldn't be changed to allow a probation period. I don't know how long -- six months? a year? -- but maybe there should be a probationary Level 1, 2, 3, followed by the period during which you continue to demonstrate skill and safety at that level, and then the permanent cert is awarded.

I mean, anyone can get lucky on a cert flight. Maybe you should have to show that more than once?

I think safety begins with God given common sense. Where that is lacking, problems arise regardless of the situation or activity. When a policeman tells a knucklehead to get out of the street and walk on the sidewalk, the knucklehead should show due respect and do so. :2:

tmacklin said:

I think safety begins with God given common sense. Where that is lacking, problems arise regardless of the situation or activity. When a policeman tells a knucklehead to get out of the street and walk on the sidewalk, the knucklehead should show due respect and do so. :2:

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I have never found common sense to be all that common.....