building materials?

What do you guys suggest for building materials? is there a way to harden paper? I've considered using aluminum from pop cans, thin plastic sheeting, etc.

SethMatthews said:

What do you guys suggest for building materials? is there a way to harden paper? I've considered using aluminum from pop cans, thin plastic sheeting, etc.

Click to expand...

Paper, wood, plastic. Metal is only allowed in model rockets in small amounts and only if necessary. There's not much that pop can aluminum could do for you anyway.
There are several ways to harden paper, ranging from painting it with various coatings to laminating it with fabrics like fiberglass.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, L3CC [emoji1010]

SethMatthews said:

What do you guys suggest for building materials? is there a way to harden paper? I've considered using aluminum from pop cans, thin plastic sheeting, etc.

Click to expand...

You have come to the right place my friend!




Use anything and EVERYTHING!!!!
Consume your Environment for all valuable resources.
Common Sense survival and innovation. Sometimes all you have to do is turn the world on it's Head.





Paper has the advantage of being repeatable, and Fiberglass is everywhere, so it just makes sense to use them.

Steve Shannon said:

There are several ways to harden paper, ranging from painting it with various coatings to laminating it with fabrics like fiberglass.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, L3CC [emoji1010]

Click to expand...

I don't know how to fiberglass, are you saying numerous layers of paint?

SethMatthews said:

I don't know how to fiberglass, are you saying numerous layers of paint?

Click to expand...

Paint is only built to cover things in pretty colors. Fiberglass is meant to be construction material.
Heavy Cardstock can be hardened with Super Glue, A.K.A. Super Thin CA.
I'm about to try Minwax Wood Hardener for some of the things I previously only tried with CA.
Gotta' find the combinations that work, and more importantly, the ones that don't.
I was distracted recently, but the 110# cardstock does everything well. Bristol Board has potential, but not while I'm trying to build stuff for real.
Vellum is also worthless.

SethMatthews said:

What do you guys suggest for building materials? is there a way to harden paper? I've considered using aluminum from pop cans, thin plastic sheeting, etc.

Click to expand...

Can you give an idea what sort of rockets you're planning to build, and what kind of experience you have? Might help narrow down that very very broad question.

SethMatthews said:

I don't know how to fiberglass, are you saying numerous layers of paint?

Click to expand...

Watch this video. There are other videos to watch from this same gentleman. He is an advanced and very accomplished rocketeer. And a member here on TRF.

[video=youtube;bjZNyXsd8gw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjZNyXsd8gw[/video]

I have had quite a bit of luck soaking parts with thin CA. After it is dry, it sands glass smooth and feels like plastic. I have treated nose cones, tail cones, body tubes and fins with this method. One of the most successful was a paper nose cone (made from 110# card stock) version of the Estes PNC-50SP (picture the pencil nose cone with a cockpit canopy on the side).

SethMatthews said:

I don't know how to fiberglass, are you saying numerous layers of paint?

Click to expand...

No, not multiple layers of paint, although that does strengthen paper somewhat. I mean applying other types of material, such as wood hardeners or CA glue. These polymeric materials are absorbed into the paper to form a stronger material than either the paper or the polymers. There are threads here where people compare different materials. I recommend reading as much as you can.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, L3CC [emoji1010]

neil_w said:

Can you give an idea what sort of rockets you're planning to build, and what kind of experience you have? Might help narrow down that very very broad question.

Click to expand...

Strictly home build and tinkering, not for competition. as far as I know, we don't have any rocketry clubs near me anyway. I have zero experience, just a glue together e2x kit. I wouldn't call that skilled. lol

I was thinking about building a forge for casting aluminum, but if its not good, or illegal in a competition, (should I ever decide to,) so thats out. lol Guess i'll learn to fiberglass, I was wanting to fix my moms canoe anyway, it'll make good practice. lol

gpoehlein said:

I have had quite a bit of luck soaking parts with thin CA. After it is dry, it sands glass smooth and feels like plastic. I have treated nose cones, tail cones, body tubes and fins with this method. One of the most successful was a paper nose cone (made from 110# card stock) version of the Estes PNC-50SP (picture the pencil nose cone with a cockpit canopy on the side).

Click to expand...

Here's my attempt at being helpful with Paper Parts. I'm glassing paper now.:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Things-I-ve-Learned-Recently-Paper-Parts-Wise

Try this stuff.

https://secure.rotdoctor.com/12order-S.html

2 pints runs $38, but it will last a long long time. Just paint it on the surface, and it will soak right through a cardboard tube. Sets up as an epoxy once dry.

I used it a while ago to fix a rotten outdoor stair when fixing some inner city homes. Stuff worked like a miracle.

On paper tubing, it feels like you made a poor-man's phenolic that's a bit harder. Somewhere between phenolic and epoxy. I've only played around with it and never built a rocket, so buyer beware. Tip, don't brush it all on the whole tube at once. I tried that, and the tube collapsed under its wet weight. Paint a little at a time. Might be different if you paint it on real rocket tubes that are stiffer. I tried it on wrapping paper tubes and poster tubes.

I've also used minwax hi performance wood hardener to dip tube ends with similar results to applying thin CA.

If I've got a jar of leftover glue/urethane/epoxy/CA or whatever lying around, I'll experiment with it. Usually with disastrous ends. Probably a result of my neophyte building skills, but it's still fun to play around.

There's also something called GitRot that's a paintable epoxy penetrant, but I've never tried it.

SethMatthews said:

Strictly home build and tinkering, not for competition. as far as I know, we don't have any rocketry clubs near me anyway. I have zero experience, just a glue together e2x kit. I wouldn't call that skilled. lol

I was thinking about building a forge for casting aluminum, but if its not good, or illegal in a competition, (should I ever decide to,) so thats out. lol Guess i'll learn to fiberglass, I was wanting to fix my moms canoe anyway, it'll make good practice. lol

Click to expand...

Take a look at the club lists for the two national organizations, NAR and Tripoli. Even if you don't join, a day trip to a club launch once in a while might be a nice outing. For myself, being associated with a club has been very rewarding.

https://www.nar.org/find-a-local-club/nar-club-locator/

https://www.tripoli.org/Prefectures

Even the caps from Valve Stems become building materials eventually.
Not making the things I need is NEVER an option.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great, Duty First"

SethMatthews said:

I was thinking about building a forge for casting aluminum, but if its not good, or illegal in a competition, (should I ever decide to,) so thats out. lol Guess i'll learn to fiberglass, I was wanting to fix my moms canoe anyway, it'll make good practice. lol

Click to expand...

Jumping from an E2X kit to forging aluminum or even glassing is, to say the least, a bit extreme (never mind the fact that aluminum is a no-go since it violates the safety code). You'd be much better off building a few paper-and-balsa rockets to build a solid foundation of experience before jumping into more exotic materials. For low power rockets (and even some mid-power) you don't need anything more than paper and wood anyway.

I have nothing against glassing* (though I've never tried it) but it's certainly not where I would start.



*disclaimer included to appease Top Ramen.

neil_w said:

Jumping from an E2X kit to forging aluminum or even glassing is, to say the least, a bit extreme (never mind the fact that aluminum is a no-go since it violates the safety code). You'd be much better off building a few paper-and-balsa rockets to build a solid foundation of experience before jumping into more exotic materials. For low power rockets (and even some mid-power) you don't need anything more than paper and wood anyway.

I have nothing against glassing* (though I've never tried it) but it's certainly not where I would start.



*disclaimer included to appease Top Ramen.

Click to expand...

I appreciate that, but it's not necessary. I understand all aspects of Construction Ethics, and never take offense to my methods.
I'm here to learn how to build better, even if it takes me a while. I'll always love the Fiberglass, but I'm learning how to do it as light as humanly possible.
My paper pressing template method shows some potential, and can make batches of parts, that they may be weighed and measured for uniformity. Precision is the goal.

TopRamen said:

I appreciate that, but it's not necessary. I understand all aspects of Construction Ethics, and never take offense to my methods.
I'm here to learn how to build better, even if it takes me a while. I'll always love the Fiberglass, but I'm learning how to do it as light as humanly possible.
My paper pressing template method shows some potential, and can make batches of parts, that they may be weighed and measured for uniformity. Precision is the goal.

Click to expand...

I actually greatly admire your glassing prowess, I just haven't had the need to go there yet (plus I try to avoid working with stinky chemicals whenever an alternative is available.)

Either way it seems the OP should pass rocket building 101 before jumping to the graduate classes.

neil_w said:

Either way it seems the OP should pass rocket building 101 before jumping to the graduate classes.

Click to expand...

I agree, I[m guessing the safety concerns with metals are the shrapnel factor? as for the graduate classes, what can I say, I'm imaginative if nothing else. lol

Even some well respected members here have use soda can aluminum to shield exhaust channels on TLP style tail cones if I remember correctly.
I don't think the OP is meaning to build an entire rocket from them.

My other hobby is building man portable cannon. Since they are essentially a "Muzzle-loader", they can be assembled and used legally with no Tax Stamps or B.A.T.F.E. Classification so they are a real hoot!
For awhile I experimented with Aluminum for barrel liner sleeves and had to test them to destruction in order to know their properties. The Aluminum does not tend to form shrapnel, but acts more like an orange peel, and due to it's light weight, does not carry any ballistic potential beyond the test area due to energy.

SethMatthews said:

I agree, I[m guessing the safety concerns with metals are the shrapnel factor? as for the graduate classes, what can I say, I'm imaginative if nothing else. lol

Click to expand...

It's more about damage that can be caused if the rocket comes in ballistic. Go read the NAR safety codes if you haven't already done so (although they don't always give detailed reasons).

TopRamen said:

Even some well respected members here have use soda can aluminum to shield exhaust channels on TLP style tail cones if I remember correctly.
I don't think the OP is meaning to build an entire rocket from them.

Click to expand...

OP wrote: I was thinking about building a forge for casting aluminum

No doubt bits of metal get used judiciously here and there, and (as has been discussed in many other threads) it may be that in many cases some very light aluminum parts would be less dangerous than some of the other materials that folks use. But that's the code. Of course, for high-power rockets, metal is used frequently in various capacities, although only "when necessary" (which is certainly a bit vague, to say the least).

Again, we're talking about a reasonable next step for someone that has to this point built a single E2X rocket.

neil_w said:

It's more about damage that can be caused if the rocket comes in ballistic. Go read the NAR safety codes if you haven't already done so (although they don't always give detailed reasons).



OP wrote: I was thinking about building a forge for casting aluminum

No doubt bits of metal get used judiciously here and there, and (as has been discussed in many other threads) it may be that in many cases some very light aluminum parts would be less dangerous than some of the other materials that folks use. But that's the code. Of course, for high-power rockets, metal is used frequently in various capacities, although only "when necessary" (which is certainly a bit vague, to say the least).

Again, we're talking about a reasonable next step for someone that has to this point built a single E2X rocket.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I missed that part, forged aluminum castings are more of an Amateur Rocketry thing than this forum kind of thing.

I can't speak for competition model rocketry, but aluminum is used in high-power rocketry. I have no experience with forged aluminum parts, but drawn tubes, turned tail cones and milled fins and bulkheads are common. I've made various parts from 2024 and 6061 using a CNC router.

I have two high powered rockets (H and I motors) and they are "only" heavy duty cardboard and plywood fins. Tubes are incredibly strong along the long axis. I remember seeing a video where a guy used 4 thin stemmed wine glasses to hold up a piece of plywood (a glass in each corner). He then stepped onto the plywood and stood on it. He stepped down, took one of the glasses and hit it against something solid and it broke at the stem. Cardboard tubes are more than enough for what you need at this point.

Can I hijack this thread?
I am building an upscale Estes "The Bat," 5.5" diameter airframe. I have glassed a few big rockets, sloppy but effective.

The fins will be about 16" from root to tip. I am thinking low altitude, single deployment flights.

Can anybody recommend some fin stock? wood and fiberglass options would be appreciated.

Thanks all

Greedo said:

Can I hijack this thread?
I am building an upscale Estes "The Bat," 5.5" diameter airframe. I have glassed a few big rockets, sloppy but effective.

The fins will be about 16" from root to tip. I am thinking low altitude, single deployment flights.

Can anybody recommend some fin stock? wood and fiberglass options would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

I recommend plywood in most cases since it's easy to work with. "Baltic birch" plywood can be purchased from your local hobby shop or Tower Hobbies in various thicknesses.

Thanks John. I am a Tower Super Saver... never knew they had Baltic Birch.
These elephant ear fins should probably be glassed. Do you think 6oz fiberglass clothe is the best?
How do I avoid warped fins?

Greedo said:

Thanks John. I am a Tower Super Saver... never knew they had Baltic Birch.
These elephant ear fins should probably be glassed. Do you think 6oz fiberglass clothe is the best?
How do I avoid warped fins?

Click to expand...

Just be careful to get the high-ply stuff (called "baltic birch"), not the 3-ply stuff (called "craft ply").

I haven't had problems with plywood warping, but maybe it's because I live in an area of low humidity. If you have issues with plywood warping, then you may have to let it sit for a while and cut fins out of the flattest sections.

I don't think they need to be 'glassed for "low slow" flights, but if you want to flat layups are the easiest. 6oz, or even 4oz, will be fine.

neil_w said:

Can you give an idea what sort of rockets you're planning to build, and what kind of experience you have? Might help narrow down that very very broad question.

Click to expand...

That's a very good question.

The lighter large scale projects I've done were just fine with fiberglass over paper, foam core, poster board, sheet styrene plastic and light plywood from the LHS, and balsa wood with fiberglass lay up.
The load bearing parts were the cardboard main motor mount tube (LOC and PML) with through the wall ply fins attached to that, with the lighter thin walled materials forming the airframe.
I don't have a big workshop with power tools, so I'm limited to what I can do with out them, basically what I can cut with a hacksaw or box cutter.
I've even done fairly large diameter (9 inches dia.) foam core centering rings with spruce and balsa reinforcement.
This was ok for up to H motor with clustered low power outboards - for "low and slow" as John Coker said.
Building to survive the occasional abuse during landing and recovery was the challenge, more than the up part.

If you aim to go very high speed and plan on using larger motors - it changes things dramatically, and the choice of materials.

MaxQ said:

That's a very good question.

The lighter large scale projects I've done were just fine with fiberglass over paper, foam core, poster board, sheet styrene plastic and light plywood from the LHS, and balsa wood with fiberglass lay up.
The load bearing parts were the cardboard main motor mount tube (LOC and PML) with through the wall ply fins attached to that, with the lighter thin walled materials forming the airframe.
I've even done fairly large diameter (9 inches dia.) foam core centering rings with spruce and balsa reinforcement.
This was ok for up to H motor with clustered low power outboards - for "low and slow" as John Coker said.
Surviving the occasional abuse during landing and recovery was the challenge.

If you aim to go very high speed and plan on using larger motors - it changes things dramatically, and the choice of materials.

Click to expand...

If you want the ultimate in lightweight construction check out Frank Burke's foam rockets, a 6lb full size AIM-45 Falcon, or a 7lb full scale Hellfire, a 10" Atlas or Titan weighing less than 8lbs (I hope I recalled all the weights close to correct) all capable and having been flown on a AT I200. https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?70242-7-5-quot-Titan-II-Missile-2-Versions

I have had the opportunity to handle and watch all these great foamies fly and they are amazing.