Madcow "Level-2" Build, 4" Fiberglass Airframe w/54mm Motor

Thanks Kevin!

Well.. the Level2 has again lived up to it's name!!

It was a near PERFECT flight, but the 808 #16 camera shut off before it launched. bah. The primary ejection charges worked perfectly for the drogue, followed by a puff of smoke from the backup altimeter ejection, then a third puff from the motor ejection drilled to 13 seconds. The main also came out perfectly with the primary altimeter, followed by a puff of smoke from the backup altimeter's charge going off. After separating at apogee, the little 18" stock drogue worked perfectly to keep the payload section up and away from the booster, with a beautiful inverted V formation of the shock cords. Wow, that OneBadHawk 25' cord is long! The main came out firmly and openly gently, but quickly. Launch weight was a little over 11.5 lbs! The Top Flight PAR-70 chute brought it down softly, with a stable decent.. very nice bright orange too.

Here's the data plot from the PerfectFlight StratologgerCF:




I'll post 3rd person video and hopefully some stills from Benno's excellent photos later.

Rock on!!! Way to go Kevin!!! Change that L2 in your signature. It is NO LONGER a work in progress!! Sorry to hear about the 808. I had that issue when using it a second time in one day. What motor did you end up with. See you crested just over 2k. Nice. Low and slow for the certification. Then...all bets are off..time to rip the fins off! Again, Congratulations my friend! Well done.

Kevin

Congratulations!!

Hey Kevin....1st one to 11k with this rocket wins!

Thanks guys! To all of you who've helped me with this build; Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you and the forum.
I tried to fly again today, but they closed the range down early. I didn't think I had time to prep this rocket, so I flew my L1 bird, an Estes Leviathan using motor ejection. I again tried and failed with the camera, but this time I have it figured out.. I haven't been using my 808 #16 for almost 2 years now, but have been using my Mobius.. and I mixed up the power on and start/stop buttons! Oh well.. 3rd times I charm so perhaps next try. I should have new fancy 3D printed camera shrouds here sometime this week. Perhaps I'll get to a launch in June.

I'm not sure why the StratologgerCF data has a bump at the Apogee Drogue Ejection.. look like I jumped up to cross 2000 ft for no reason. I have to wonder how much higher it would have went if I didn't have the non-operational camera taped to the side with aluminum foil HVAC tape.

11K Kevin!?!? The most I could sqeeze out of a simulation was about 8K on a low L impulse! The motor will fill the booster tube all the way to the altimeter bay eyebolt.
I'll start off slow.. and order an eggfinder! My wife wants me to slow down a bit.... just a bit. =]

Ok, I have to unpack the car and edit some videos....

kevinkal said:

Thanks guys! To all of you who've helped me with this build; Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you and the forum.
I tried to fly again today, but they closed the range down early. I didn't think I had time to prep this rocket, so I flew my L1 bird, an Estes Leviathan using motor ejection. I again tried and failed with the camera, but this time I have it figured out.. I haven't been using my 808 #16 for almost 2 years now, but have been using my Mobius.. and I mixed up the power on and start/stop buttons! Oh well.. 3rd times I charm so perhaps next try. I should have new fancy 3D printed camera shrouds here sometime this week. Perhaps I'll get to a launch in June.

I'm not sure why the StratologgerCF data has a bump at the Apogee Drogue Ejection.. look like I jumped up to cross 2000 ft for no reason. I have to wonder how much higher it would have went if I didn't have the non-operational camera taped to the side with aluminum foil HVAC tape.

11K Kevin!?!? The most I could sqeeze out of a simulation was about 8K on a low L impulse! The motor will file the booster tube all the way to the altimeter bay eyebolt.
I'll start off slow.. and order an eggfinder! My wife wants me to slow down a bit.... just a bit. =]

Ok, I have to unpack the car and edit some videos....

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Yeah, I have simmed an L that brings it just over 11k. Using a CTI 6XL case. You are right, it absolutely fills the booster. but it'll be fun!
I also had the "Slow down...what's this costing" conversation here! So now it's a little here and a little there. Nice thing is..you got both done in 2016. Quite an achievement my friend!! Post a few pictures. Want to see the final shots.

Congrats Kevin! That was an absolutely perfect cert flight.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130867993@N02/26579184204/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130867993@N02/26580413823/in/dateposted-public/

SCrocketfan said:

Congrats Kevin! That was an absolutely perfect cert flight.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130867993@N02/26579184204/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130867993@N02/26580413823/in/dateposted-public/

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Your photos are Outstanding Benno! Thank you!

kevinkal said:

Your photos are Outstanding Benno! Thank you!

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You're welcome! More to come in the next few days...

SCrocketfan said:

You're welcome! More to come in the next few days...

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You'll notice that I've updated my Avatar photo from fiction(OpenRocket 3D render of my rocket) to reality, the excellent zoom photo you took of my project clearing the pad! Love it. Thank you again. =]

Wow. Looks like an awesome flight Kevin! Much better pictures in flight than I got!!

kcobbva said:

Wow. Looks like an awesome flight Kevin! Much better pictures in flight than I got!!

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You're video is Awsome Kevin.. I wish I'd gotten the camera to stay on. I particularly love the audio track you've mixed into your video.

I was very lucky that Benno was there with his zooming/fast shutter camera.

Nice job Kevin, congrats on the L2! Also very thorough on your charge testing!

Nick@JET said:

Nice job Kevin, congrats on the L2! Also very thorough on your charge testing!

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Thanks Nick.

I still don't feel 100% confident with setting up consistent charges. While I can't prove any of the following speculation, it is my current understanding on how to ensure a good punch from the charges:
1. Do not overdo the DogBarf.. the packed compartment should be loose, not compressing against the dog barf. I suspect this was my biggest problem during testing.
2. Pack the Black Powder down firmly, then carefully press wadding into the charge well, tamping down the edges circumferentially, so that the charge stays centered and doesn't leak out the sides.
3. Use taller charge wells as they seem to produce more potent ejection charges vs. stubby charge wells. The taller one I used allowed space for 3 pcs of wadding before taping and seemed to consistenty fire with gusto.
As I type this, I'm thinking about how flat and loose the standard motor ejection charges are packed in the typical forward closures... violating my speculation in items 2 and 3 above.

Finally, I found that the forward closure on my 38mm Rouse Tech RMS motor could only hold 1.4g 4F Black powder maximum. That was a bit disappointing, as I don't think 1.4 would be enough to shear the 4 pins I have. I loaded it fully anyway, and it fired after the main and backup altimeter nicely.. but the puff of smoke was smaller as expected. Perhaps I could cut a very short 1/16" tall paper motor case section and tape it on top of the standard 38mm fwd closure ejection charge opening.. allowing me to put in 2.0g of 4F Black Powder.. then tape it over with no less than 2 layers of masking tape followed by a full circle of tape around the knurled closure end. I think it would work without too much trouble making. I wonder if some of my spent Estes F15 casings would be the proper diameter to cut "charge well extensions".

I'm trying to put together a video.. but I'm getting hammered at work and am a bit too low on energy. Perhaps In a couple of days. I hope to add the altimeter and velocity feature to even just my 3rd person view video. Off to work!

kevinkal said:

Thanks Nick.

I still don't feel 100% confident with setting up consistent charges. While I can't prove any of the following speculation, it is my current understanding on how to ensure a good punch from the charges:
1. Do not overdo the DogBarf.. the packed compartment should be loose, not compressing against the dog barf. I suspect this was my biggest problem during testing.
2. Pack the Black Powder down firmly, then carefully press wadding into the charge well, tamping down the edges circumferentially, so that the charge stays centered and doesn't leak out the sides.
3. Use taller charge wells as they seem to produce more potent ejection charges vs. stubby charge wells. The taller one I used allowed space for 3 pcs of wadding before taping and seemed to consistenty fire with gusto.
As I type this, I'm thinking about how flat and loose the standard motor ejection charges are packed in the typical forward closures... violating my speculation in items 2 and 3 above.

Finally, I found that the forward closure on my 38mm Rouse Tech RMS motor could only hold 1.4g 4F Black powder maximum. That was a bit disappointing, as I don't think 1.4 would be enough to shear the 4 pins I have. I loaded it fully anyway, and it fired after the main and back altimeter nicely.. but the puff of smoke was smaller as expected.

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I too am working on that consistency on charges. Regardless what I post below, it is definitely about finding that consistency and testing.

1. I second this - packed dog barf above BP in a plastic charge well real hard so primary would blow my redundant ...created a pipe bomb of sorts that destroyed my charge well and sent that shrapnel through my main payload tubing, rendering my backup useless. Note to self ;DONT OVERPACK! And no more plastic charge wells for me.

2. I've been told by CJ and Gus not to pack BP tight. And the bid barf simply to hold the BP in place so the Ematch lights it.

3. I hadn't thought of this - good to know. Another thing CJ did (don't want to speak for him, maybe he will read and clarify) is place the Ematch near the middle to top so it continues to light the BP as it is expelled out of the well, I believe this has been tested by showing unburnt BP in a video somewhere.

4. I've seen others add some BP to the top of an RMS and tape over it, once the 1.4 lights it would
Light the other BP you added, add .6 grams and boom , you got 2.0.

I tested my LOC Magnum 5.5" extensively and had known amount of charge +.3 grams NOT blow my main. Rocket landed safely in soft dirt - the drogue was out and slowed enough that no damage occurred - but this was a product of finding out my packing technique changed...argh. And I almost flew drogueless that day. That has convinced me to fly with a drogue even though I think simple is better, it saved my rocket.

Nick@JET said:

packed dog barf above BP in a plastic charge well real hard so primary would blow my redundant ...created a pipe bomb of sorts that destroyed my charge well and sent that shrapnel through my main payload tubing, rendering my backup useless. Note to self ;DONT OVERPACK! And no more plastic charge wells for me.

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Dang I pack mine tight and wrap tape over and around. All PVC caps. Maybe I need to rethink that looking forward so I don't encounter the same!!

All set for launch:


On the pad, #16:


My wife was excited as I was after the flight and walked out with me to greet the parts after touchdown:



At the last minute, I mounted my 808 #16 camera using aluminum HVAC tape. However, something was't working well with the camera, and it was shutting off shortly after I started recording. It shut down moments after I started it and walked back from the pad, so I have no in-flight video:


I put together the following video from my head mounted GoPro video and added logged data from my Eggtimer Quantum. I used Dashware to modify and add some gages to the video to relay altitude, velocity and the flight profile plot:
[video=youtube;XqCjse1H4qk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqCjse1H4qk[/video]

VERY Nicely done sir! I liked your use of Dashware. What component did you use to get the bottom graphic in the video. I don't recall seeing that component and like it! Again, Very nicely done!

Wow - awesome dashware use, you got skills!

kcobbva said:

VERY Nicely done sir! I liked your use of Dashware. What component did you use to get the bottom graphic in the video. I don't recall seeing that component and like it! Again, Very nicely done!

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Nick@JET said:

Wow - awesome dashware use, you got skills!

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Thanks guys. The bottom Dashware item originally was the "Dark Range Chart Alt Feet". Little skills here.. just brute force and time spent... I dumped hours into figuring this out yesterday. Since I really don't know how to use Dashware too well.. I simply placed it in my video, then opened it for modifications. I mostly removed the dark backgrounds and trim, opening up the transparency of the "gage". I was surprised at how nice this particular one was.. very useful for our hobby!
For the needle gages, I rescaled their range and changed the visible units to match the data units coming in. You'll notice that I simply optimized their ranges for the known data max/min that I was going to send to them. ie 2000' altitude and 400 ft/sec vertical rate. I added the simple digital window to the vertical speed indicator. I found that having the "analog" needles really helped convey the altitude and velocity state. I used the filtered data columns from the Eggtimer Quantum, however even the filtered data had plenty of noise in it. However, somehow the shaking needles reminding of real rocket launches from the 60's/70s and 80s... I think they give the video some "feel". Off to work now! Ugh.

Outstanding, thanks for the video. I have lots of great information now before I start my Level 2 rocket from Apogee.

hobie1dog said:

Outstanding, thanks for the video. I have lots of great information now before I start my Level 2 rocket from Apogee.

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Thank you. I think you'll love this rocket! It will fly on I's through low L's.. but I'm going to be careful about breaking into transonic/supersonic flight.. which is pretty much guarnateed with the larger K's and low L's. I think the J350W was an excellent boost... and not too expensive or high. I'm looking forward to trying an I327DarkMatter and an I600Redline. They'll put it to 1500 and 1900 respectively. I'm also looking forward to continuing to add capability to this build and gain experience with it. As the first Kevin from VA is doing, I'm planning to put some tracking capability in.. likely and Eggfinder kit.

Benno posted more excellent photos including some of the drogue and fully deployed recovery gear.

This first one is at higher altitude with just the stock 18" drogue deployed, attached to a loop on the OneBadHawk 3-loop 7/16" Tubular Kevlar Shock Cord. As far as I can tell, this is an excellent spread with the drogue holding the payload/main chute section high and the booser w/fins falling well away from the payload with the 25' shock cord fully extended. I'm not sure if it's the angle or real, but it appears that the booster section has a good amount of drag when falling, likely due to the 4 fins. For this reason, I don't think I can use a smaller drogue unless I have more motor weight, else the fin can may position above the payload when falling under the drogue. It averaged about 50 ft/sec falling with the drogue.



The fully deployed recovery gear worked great, and looks to be well placed as far as I can tell. It averaged roughly 17 ft/sec under this chute. (Top Flight PAR-70 Chute, Rocket was about 11 lbs at burnout)

hobie1dog said:

Outstanding, thanks for the video. I have lots of great information now before I start my Level 2 rocket from Apogee.

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I agree with Kevin here. It's an outstanding, Sturdy kit. You'll have a great time with this one and it'll serve your level 2 well.

Question for all of you guys certified or certifying with a Level 2 rocket:

Did you opt for that rocket simply because of its name, or was something else the deciding factor?

Bat-mite said:

Question for all of you guys certified or certifying with a Level 2 rocket:

Did you opt for that rocket simply because of its name, or was something else the deciding factor?

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Why do you ask that?

I would hope that name had little or no impact on anyone's decision to go with this rocket. I looked at this kit as being very similar to the Mad Cow Super DX3, which is the rocket I was originally focusing on.. but then I noticed that this kit was both more affordable and came with more components such as parachutes etc. I also like the way it looks with the Nike Smoke-ish 4 fins. Another factor was that Kevin from VA had a great build thread, and I felt I could benefit from having a similar build. The Level-2 is a great rocket and has lots of room to expand systems with.

If I had it to do over, I might consider the split fin Madcow kit.. the 4" Fiberglass Frenzy.. but then installing double the fins and fillets doesn't sound like too much fun and I think the cost is again greater. =]

Bat-mite said:

Question for all of you guys certified or certifying with a Level 2 rocket:

Did you opt for that rocket simply because of its name, or was something else the deciding factor?

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Honesty at the time I was considering the L1 and L2 I didn't know about this site; or half of what I know now. Tim had excellent videos up on the site and I watched them for a while. At that point I decided specifically on the Level-2 rocket because I had a "Walk-thru" video series.

When it came time to building it; I didn't follow the videos because I had learned so much here on the web and have learned to do things differently than shown in the videos. Now again, as for a rocket, I think it's an excellent Level-2 certification bird.

kevinkal said:

Why do you ask that?

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Just curious. There seem to be quite a lot of people who have recently, or are about to, certified with the Level 2 rocket, and I was wondering what drew people to it. There are probably 50 kits out there that can be used for a level 2 cert, but this is the only one that basically advertises that fact through its name. So I didn't know if people were Googling "Level 2 rocket" for ideas, and lo and behold, there's a rocket called the Level 2! Or, if after evaluating many kits, this one came out on top. If the latter, then I might have to get one. :wink:

kcobbva said:

Honesty at the time I was considering the L1 and L2 I didn't know about this site; or half of what I know now. Tim had excellent videos up on the site and I watched them for a while. At that point I decided specifically on the Level-2 rocket because I had a "Walk-thru" video series.

When it came time to building it; I didn't follow the videos because I had learned so much here on the web and have learned to do things differently than shown in the videos. Now again, as for a rocket, I think it's an excellent Level-2 certification bird.

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Makes sense. I watched the video series for "How to build a high power rocket," I think it was called, with the young lady building a Madcow kit from Apogee. And I considered buying it just so I could follow the video explicitly. But then I decided to go L1 with my Sumo, because I already had it.