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Orion14ed

Orion14ed

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Hey guys,

I am the president of the Science Club at my school and I managed to find about 100 models of the Viking ESTES kit. We are planning on building them next week, and want to fly the week after. I have always flown in parks with no issues my entire life, but my supervisor wants written permission. I have talked to the Parks and Rec official in one of the cities close to us (we are by an airport so we can not fly) and they want me to write a very in depth proposal and have the district attorney (I believe) check it before I am permitted to fly there. I may be overstepping my knowledge, but as long as we do not fly anything above what the NAR rules and State Laws dictate I was sure we would be fine. This proposal, while I am 100% for doing it, seems a little uneeded considering that all laws I have read state that it would not be an issue for the state of Michigan. Has anyone tried a start up like this before? The way I look at it, if I got permission from local law enforcement I'd assume I would be able to fly. I just know I am "technically" not breaking any law by flying these rockets on the appropriate sized land and by using the proper safety precautions. Should I just check with local law enforcement, or from anyone's experience, do I need the parks express permission?

I'm sorry if this comes across as some kid who thinks he knows everything, but it really just seems like its a huge loop to jump through to get a proposal approved instead of just permission from local law enforcement. (I understand it is Parks and Rec's land, but I've flown there for years with no issues, so I guess I am really confused here.) Part of it is local ordinances, but I'd assume that with permission from law enforcement I would be able to fly. (I do not believe there is one in the area prohibiting model rockets.)

Has anyone had to do something like this before or really familiar with the rules of model rocketry especially in Michigan? If so, how did you go about it. I really want my Science Club to do this, they seem all for it, but I do not want to risk any law breaking, and I also know the chances of this proposal being read before the end of the school year is little.

Thank you so much!
 
You're asking for their permission so you jump through their hoops. It may seem like an imposition, but they have a responsibility also.
When I did this I put together packets listing our insurance coverage, safety statistics, how often we would be launching, etc. If you're intending to fly as part of a NAR section that's great. If not, consider joining or starting a section to get landowner insurance.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, L3CC [emoji1010]
 
I've only just dipped my toe into this, but in various places ( incl. int'l ) there appear to be national, state, county, city, neighborhood restrictions.

It depends on who owns the property ; they ultimately get to decide what we can and can't do there, since it's theirs.

Also, local law enforcement is potentially not the only outside interested party. The Authority Having Jurisdiction may include a Sheriff, Fire Marshall, etc.

Hope this helps,
-dh.
 
So it looks like the only way to do this is to write it out for Parks and Rec and have the district attorney check it, or join a club. Does this mean that for the entirety of my life whenever I have flown at a park, those simple state laws did not protect me?

I asked the administrator at Parks and Rec on what she would like me to include and she listed so many general things so fast that I only got a few simple ones down. What information should I include, and where can I get this information?

I have the state laws, NAR code, and am going to include a description on what we plan on doing and what sized rockets, but if I am going to do this I want to make sure I am thorough.

Also keeping in mind that this is a group of about 15 kids, nothing close enough to warrant becoming a section of the NAR. I really am willing able to put in the effort to do this, but also am aware that if we have to drive an hour to a launch, I will lose participants, and with the goal of making a TARC team my senior year I really can not afford that.
 
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Michigan is an NFPA-1 State: https://www.nfpa.org/press-room/news-releases/2011/michigan-adopts-nfpa-1-fire-code
NFPA-1 includes NFPA-1122, Code for Model Rockets. This is what you refer to when presenting your request to the Parks Dept.

The NAR will help you with the statistics to support the claim that model rocketry is safe, fun, and education. This should overlap nicely with the mission of the Parks Dept. They are there to serve the citizens. However, they serve all residents, therefor you will have to negotiate a date & time that does not interfere with other activities on the City's property.

As others have mentioned, forming a NAR section is your best bet. You can provide a multi-million dollar insurance certificate naming the City as insured. It only takes 5 senior NAR members (you and 4 parents?). It is quite inexpensive compared to any other option to secure insurance.

Our club has been using City Parks property for several years now. Permission wasn't difficult as an organized group. No need for City Attorneys to get involved. We keep the Parks Dept permit in hand in case anyone complains or the police show up.
 
It's easier than that, just two members are required to start a section, with one of them needing to be a senior member.
 
Many states have already codified the NFPA Code to include the in state statutes. Idaho has as has most states thus making an advisory code law. This alone will help you out immensely in your endeavor. I also found a city code that allows inside city limits if the flight does not exceed 700 feet. It's nearly impossible to exceed that limit with a 3-4 second delay motor.
 
Orion14ed said:
So it looks like the only way to do this is to write it out for Parks and Rec and have the district attorney check it, or join a club. Does this mean that for the entirety of my life whenever I have flown at a park, those simple state laws did not protect me?

I asked the administrator at Parks and Rec on what she would like me to include and she listed so many general things so fast that I only got a few simple ones down. What information should I include, and where can I get this information?

I have the state laws, NAR code, and am going to include a description on what we plan on doing and what sized rockets, but if I am going to do this I want to make sure I am thorough.

Also keeping in mind that this is a group of about 15 kids, nothing close enough to warrant becoming a section of the NAR. I really am willing able to put in the effort to do this, but also am aware that if we have to drive an hour to a launch, I will lose participants, and with the goal of making a TARC team my senior year I really can not afford that.
Click to expand...

I'm not a lawyer, but I would bet that the fact that this is school-sanctioned, and includes more than just yourself and a buddy is what is causing the extra concern. I think it's a great endeavor, and you sound like you've got a great head on your shoulders, so don't let this bureaucracy get you down (but it's a good taste of life!). Go through the hoops as the others have said, and post the results of your flights!
 
I actually am the guy in my club (CATO) that has to, every year, go to the town open space committee and seek approval to fly at our site. Over the years we've worked out all the rules, but the first couple were somewhat difficult. We also provide them with the NAR insurance for the site. Its been many years, but I still have a standing date in Feb. When you're asking permission, don't argue with the rules the people that can say "yes" put on you....
 
It is a pain, but the experience is probably worth is. Working an agreement with City government looks good on college applications. And the way things are going, any experience getting explicit permission to launch rockets will be a highly sought-after skill.

It is usually easy to find county and city codes by Googling things like "City code, County Code, code of ordinances for..." Then look for the section dealing with fire code or fire prevention. Look for any mention of rockets. Then look for the county or city parks ordinances in the code. Also look up the city parks department website and check if they have rules posted that aren't actually in the law code. If they don't have any prohibitions, that's good news. Even if they do, it's not the end of the world, so long as it's just a park department rule. It appears you are going to be writing up a proposal to conduct an activity. Just like it is normally prohibited to drag amps and drums to the park and hold a concert, but if you are working with them and have permission, it can be done.

That's the difference in your past activities and the current need for approval. Even if it's entirely legal, doing it by yourself and doing it as an activity of a school club are vastly different.

Keep in mind too that there are certain people that are scared of everything related to "rockets." Remember you're talking to someone who may be picturing how they'll pay the mortgage when they're fired because there was a big explosion and disaster from the "rockets" they approved. Photos and a physical model rocket would be nice to show them how light and not-scary it is. (a small bright Estes-type rocket, not a L2 monstrosity painted black with "Lawn Dart" written on it)
 
Thank you everyone for the advice!

My adviser wants me to follow through with the proposal to the district. In the meantime, however, I plan on trying my luck with some other cities and parks to see if any of them would be willing to grant me permission through a less time consuming process. It seemed that the main reason why the woman in charge of Parks and Rec was really concerned is because she had never heard of this being done before. That concern is completely warranted, because like 10fttall said, launching rockets does sound like a dangerous and worrisome activity.

I know for a fact that my local town has given permission to my mother when I was a kid or at least gave us the "ok" so I will investigate other areas that in the meantime would be ok. (I'm not trying to be lazy, but more proactive so when these kids build their rockets in the next weeks I don't have to tell them they have to wait until next year to fly them haha)

It seems like the longterm goal would be to get this city to permit it, but off the top of my head their parks will soon become too small as we proceed forward from little Estes rockets to the rockets we aim to build to compete for TARC next year. So I am going to do a little digging and see if I could get permission from any other locations a little more easily while I am working on this proposal.

And yeah, this just makes my essay on starting a rocketry program at my school a little more interesting and long!

Thanks guys!
 
Just a thought ... have you tried looking for private property? To fly on private property, you just need the permission of the landowner. As long as you stay class 1, you don't need FAA involvement. Go on Google maps for your area and look for big open fields. Find out who owns them and make some phone calls. People can be pretty friendly for school kids.
 
Just my $0.02:

  • There are 5 different NAR sections in MI. I bet one or more of them could help you pull some of the stuff together that you need. (Our club has to do so annually for the BLM.) They'd probably be glad to help out.
  • If any of the sections have launches close enough, consider asking if you could attend their launch.

Always easier if someone else has done it before.
 
Bat-mite said:
Just a thought ... have you tried looking for private property? To fly on private property, you just need the permission of the landowner. As long as you stay class 1, you don't need FAA involvement. Go on Google maps for your area and look for big open fields. Find out who owns them and make some phone calls. People can be pretty friendly for school kids.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I did!
A little update, I started talking with members of the club to see if any of them owned a large chunk of open land, and it turns out one family owns a practice with about nine acres of open land behind it. They were totally cool with us using it, and I have written out a little document that shows the land owner giving us express permission for our low-powered rockets in case the police show up and want to rain on our parade.

While we are using this land for the rest of the year, I am going to try and find a more permanent solution. I really would prefer to larger amount of land and actually insurance for the future so an NAR club is not out of the question, but our particular location places us about an hour and a half away from the nearest one, and for flying little rockets to start off with I doubt any of the members would want to take that time out of their day. That'll be a large part of my summer is finding out what to do in the long run.

I'll post some pictures of our flights and the rockets we make on here eventually. Still trying to figure out the best course of action after the Vikings and how to use money most effectively and still let the members have fun and learn the basics.

Thanks so much again, when I finally get around to the next step I'll let all of you know :)
 
Orion14ed said:
Hey guys,

I am the president of the Science Club at my school and I managed to find about 100 models of the Viking ESTES kit. We are planning on building them next week, and want to fly the week after. I have always flown in parks with no issues my entire life, but my supervisor wants written permission. I have talked to the Parks and Rec official in one of the cities close to us (we are by an airport so we can not fly) and they want me to write a very in depth proposal and have the district attorney (I believe) check it before I am permitted to fly there. I may be overstepping my knowledge, but as long as we do not fly anything above what the NAR rules and State Laws dictate I was sure we would be fine. This proposal, while I am 100% for doing it, seems a little uneeded considering that all laws I have read state that it would not be an issue for the state of Michigan. Has anyone tried a start up like this before? The way I look at it, if I got permission from local law enforcement I'd assume I would be able to fly. I just know I am "technically" not breaking any law by flying these rockets on the appropriate sized land and by using the proper safety precautions. Should I just check with local law enforcement, or from anyone's experience, do I need the parks express permission?

I'm sorry if this comes across as some kid who thinks he knows everything, but it really just seems like its a huge loop to jump through to get a proposal approved instead of just permission from local law enforcement. (I understand it is Parks and Rec's land, but I've flown there for years with no issues, so I guess I am really confused here.) Part of it is local ordinances, but I'd assume that with permission from law enforcement I would be able to fly. (I do not believe there is one in the area prohibiting model rockets.)

Has anyone had to do something like this before or really familiar with the rules of model rocketry especially in Michigan? If so, how did you go about it. I really want my Science Club to do this, they seem all for it, but I do not want to risk any law breaking, and I also know the chances of this proposal being read before the end of the school year is little.

Thank you so much!
Click to expand...



I have had to jump through similar hoops to use a local park for an annual cub scouts rocket launch. I have written an in-depth letter citing all of the proper code, the rules we would be using, safety equipment, insurance reference, etc... I even got the Fire Marshall to sign off before bringing it to the Park District. I'd be happy to share if you need it as a starting point. Just PM me.

They are just doing their job, ensuring the park is going to be used safely, won't be abused, and is coordinated with any other scheduled activities. Most parks & rec employees are very familiar with soccer, t-ball and dog clubs. If you ask for anything else, part of your job will be to inform them on the subject, so be honest, and thorough.
 
I'd love to see said letter stickied somewhere. I'm trying to find a field closer to the house, and having such a letter prepped could make everything that much smoother.
 
What community in Michigan is this occurring in? Why is there a need for another section in Michigan? Or are you particularly remote? (I am familiar with Michigan, as my home state for 30 years.)
 
NAR has made it very easy to add launch sites, which results in the landowner being insured. Even though NARMont has one really good high power field we have added three or four parks and school yards to our list of fields. This makes it much easier to get permission to add these fields for outreach and educational activities.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]
 
Kirk G said:
What community in Michigan is this occurring in? Why is there a need for another section in Michigan? Or are you particularly remote? (I am familiar with Michigan, as my home state for 30 years.)
Click to expand...

South Eastern! And I mean we are about 30 mins from Ohio so real south Eastern.
Unless the NAR club locator is lying to me, there really is not a club that close to us.

For this year we are all set, its looking like we will be having one launch at this private property before the end of the year. I am however interested in NAR section options, but seeing as I myself still have yet to gone to a NAR Launch (I will be, quite soon, my Level 1 vehicle has been finished for quite some time), I have very little contacts.

Over the summer I will be looking into what direction is best land wise, and I feel like driving out to a NAR site may be the easiest to do, but I will be trying to find other closer options. I will keep everyone up to date!
 
Steve Shannon said:
NAR has made it very easy to add launch sites, which results in the landowner being insured. Even though NARMont has one really good high power field we have added three or four parks and school yards to our list of fields. This makes it much easier to get permission to add these fields for outreach and educational activities.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]
Click to expand...

Could you describe this process in further detail and/or point me to a link for further reading? My local is a Tripoli, but I'd love Love LOVE to have somewhere closer to fly.

I carry both memberships, so it wouldn't be too much trouble to reach out to all the NAR sections within a few hours' drive.
 
https://www.nar.org/submit-a-section-site-location/
I would expect that only the people registered as contacts for the NAR section could fill this out and submit it. It's a very easy form though. Have a contact name, email address, and mailing address for the launch site owner. Select your section from the drop down list, enter contact info for landowner and submit.
[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]
 
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