Space Rated Electronics

astroadrian99 · Apr 15, 2016

Hello guys. I'm currently working in a project with some people and we're attempting to launch a rocket all the way to space. I can't say too many details of the vehicles itself or my teammates will kill me. Anyways, I was just wondering if anybody knows of any gps tracker the works past 110 km and can withstand 80 G's of acceleration. Also, we need some accelerometers and magnetometer just incase the GPS fails to tell our altitude. Anyways, we need all of this for less than 150 g without including batteries to reach space and maybe brake a record.

Thank you so much,
astroadrian99

TopRamen · Apr 15, 2016

op:

I love it when this thread happens!:w:

bobkrech · Apr 15, 2016

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5&node=14:2.0.1.3.15 the FAA Part 101 for Class 3 rocket flights

Total Impulse > 40,960 Newton-seconds

Lots of paperwork.

Bob

jeff_j_black · Apr 15, 2016

"I'm currently working in a project with some people and we're attempting to launch a rocket all the way to space. I can't say too many details of the vehicles itself or my teammates will kill me."

Me too. That is why I can't tell you.

astroadrian99 · Apr 15, 2016

jeff_j_black said:
"I'm currently working in a project with some people and we're attempting to launch a rocket all the way to space. I can't say too many details of the vehicles itself or my teammates will kill me."

Me too. That is why I can't tell you.

Common, just those 3 sensors or at least one of them. Nothing else

astroadrian99 · Apr 15, 2016

bobkrech said:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5&node=14:2.0.1.3.15 the FAA Part 101 for Class 3 rocket flights

Total Impulse > 40,960 Newton-seconds

Lots of paperwork.

Bob

Yeah we already started on that

cerving · Apr 16, 2016

Don't know of any hobby-quality electronics that are gonna do that... you can get to about 35 km with the best (i.e. most expensive) GPS/RF/IMU unit that I know of. To go 110 km you're gonna need a special FCC experimental license plus a bunch of money, lots more paperwork for you guys. Full disclosure, I don't have a dog in the fight... our stuff is designed for the average hobbyist, 10 km is doing pretty good. Most Class II/III sites have a FAA ceiling of maybe 5 km...

Good luck to you, and we hope to hear how your project comes out.

Xrain · Apr 16, 2016

You don't need special space grade electronics for a flight like this. The only time you really care about space grade electronics is when you are expecting to be in space for long durations. Even then only when you have money. The primary difference between consumer grade electronics and space grade is typically space grade has a higher temp rating, and a higher radiation resistance. Many University cubesats use consumer grade electronics and they work fine for a while. 6 months - 2 years is typical to see when you use consumer electronics in a satellite, vs. the 20 years you could get with real space grade electronics.

The main thing you need to pay attention to when operating electronics in space is heat issues. Since there is no air your heat sinks no longer get convective cooling. Which is the most efficient. The only types of cooling you get is conduction in the short term, and radiative cooling. If you are only operating for a short period of time in space like you will be you can use a thermal sink to pull heat away. If you were operating longer you would have to eventually dump heat from the vehicle using radiative cooling, which is basically cooling your electronics through IR emission.

Electronics cooling on a rocket flight is only really a problem if you have a high power radio on board. Since if you are transmitting at a few watts, the better radios tend to be ~40% efficient, so you are dumping a few watts of power out of the radio as heat. So cooling your transmitters is something you need to pay attention to on a flight like this.

We recently had a discussion in a different thread, it appears that a few consumer GPS units should theoretically report altitudes to infinity, but will turn off over 1000 m/s. So a recent rocket altimeter that includes an IMU should work reasonably well. If you want a GPS lock for the whole flight, an unlocked GPS from Novatel would be the way to go.

You do not need a special experimental license to go to 100 km. The limit for a class III waiver is 150 km, and 200,000 lbf*s of impulse. You do need to do 6 DOF simulations to get your probable landing area. It's about 30 pages or so and 6 months for a class III waiver.

Good luck!

astroadrian99 · Apr 16, 2016

Xrain said:
You don't need special space grade electronics for a flight like this. The only time you really care about space grade electronics is when you are expecting to be in space for long durations. Even then only when you have money. The primary difference between consumer grade electronics and space grade is typically space grade has a higher temp rating, and a higher radiation resistance. Many University cubesats use consumer grade electronics and they work fine for a while. 6 months - 2 years is typical to see when you use consumer electronics in a satellite, vs. the 20 years you could get with real space grade electronics.

The main thing you need to pay attention to when operating electronics in space is heat issues. Since there is no air your heat sinks no longer get convective cooling. Which is the most efficient. The only types of cooling you get is conduction in the short term, and radiative cooling. If you are only operating for a short period of time in space like you will be you can use a thermal sink to pull heat away. If you were operating longer you would have to eventually dump heat from the vehicle using radiative cooling, which is basically cooling your electronics through IR emission.

Electronics cooling on a rocket flight is only really a problem if you have a high power radio on board. Since if you are transmitting at a few watts, the better radios tend to be ~40% efficient, so you are dumping a few watts of power out of the radio as heat. So cooling your transmitters is something you need to pay attention to on a flight like this.

We recently had a discussion in a different thread, it appears that a few consumer GPS units should theoretically report altitudes to infinity, but will turn off over 1000 m/s. So a recent rocket altimeter that includes an IMU should work reasonably well. If you want a GPS lock for the whole flight, an unlocked GPS from Novatel would be the way to go.

You do not need a special experimental license to go to 100 km. The limit for a class III waiver is 150 km, and 200,000 lbf*s of impulse. You do need to do 6 DOF simulations to get your probable landing area. It's about 30 pages or so and 6 months for a class III waiver.

Good luck!

Ok. You know we were actually thinking we had to protect our electronics from the cold, complete forgot about the heat. We will look into that, thank you. Also I looked into Novatel and they say they're operational till 515m/s, do they have a specific one that works over 1350 m/s? Just asking incase you already did some research on them before.

Xrain · Apr 17, 2016

astroadrian99 said:
Ok. You know we were actually thinking we had to protect our electronics from the cold, complete forgot about the heat. We will look into that, thank you. Also I looked into Novatel and they say they're operational till 515m/s, do they have a specific one that works over 1350 m/s? Just asking incase you already did some research on them before.

Electronics on the whole don't really care about cold that much. Unless you are getting down to cryogenic temperatures. If your electronics are operating, they should produce plenty of heat on their own for the short duration you are going to be in space. Even though space is commonly referred to as being "cold" what is actually important is the rate of heat transfer, not the absolute temperature outside. Out of the atmosphere you have to rely on the least efficient heat transfer method, so things don't get cold that fast. Which is why if you died in space it would take a long time for your body to actually freeze, up to a few days.

Your batteries are the only thing that will care about cold. But again your short duration makes it very unlikely to drop more than a few degrees for the time you are at altitude. If you were doing a high altitude baloon it would be more of a problem since you could be at altitude for several hours.

As far as GPS goes, you will not find a GPS that will go faster than 515 m/s off the shelf. This is because munition laws forbid commercial GPS from exceeding 515 m/s so a software limit is put on the GPS where it will stop reporting position information above that velocity. If you want position information above that speed you will have to get an unlocked GPS. Which takes a bit of doing. It is automatically $1000 - $2000 for the unlock service. I believe you also have to prove you are a capable steward for the unlocked GPS and have plans in place to prevent its proliferation. I suggested Novatel for this because I know of several groups who have worked with Novatel to unlock a GPS. I don't know anyone who had done it for Ublox; as if you are spending a few thousand on a GPS you tend to go with a nice GPS since it would only be a few hundred more, vs. unlocking a $20 GPS.

dhbarr · Apr 17, 2016

Isn't it true the the regulation specifies ( > 515 m/s AND > 18km ), although many/most manufacturers interpret as either / or?

I dont't have a lot of experience in the area, but my understanding is that some units will do fine > 1150mph s as long as you keep it under ~11mi or so.

astroadrian99 · Apr 17, 2016

Xrain said:
Electronics on the whole don't really care about cold that much. Unless you are getting down to cryogenic temperatures. If your electronics are operating, they should produce plenty of heat on their own for the short duration you are going to be in space. Even though space is commonly referred to as being "cold" what is actually important is the rate of heat transfer, not the absolute temperature outside. Out of the atmosphere you have to rely on the least efficient heat transfer method, so things don't get cold that fast. Which is why if you died in space it would take a long time for your body to actually freeze, up to a few days.

Your batteries are the only thing that will care about cold. But again your short duration makes it very unlikely to drop more than a few degrees for the time you are at altitude. If you were doing a high altitude baloon it would be more of a problem since you could be at altitude for several hours.

As far as GPS goes, you will not find a GPS that will go faster than 515 m/s off the shelf. This is because munition laws forbid commercial GPS from exceeding 515 m/s so a software limit is put on the GPS where it will stop reporting position information above that velocity. If you want position information above that speed you will have to get an unlocked GPS. Which takes a bit of doing. It is automatically $1000 - $2000 for the unlock service. I believe you also have to prove you are a capable steward for the unlocked GPS and have plans in place to prevent its proliferation. I suggested Novatel for this because I know of several groups who have worked with Novatel to unlock a GPS. I don't know anyone who had done it for Ublox; as if you are spending a few thousand on a GPS you tend to go with a nice GPS since it would only be a few hundred more, vs. unlocking a $20 GPS.

Oh ok, got it. I honestly thought when you told me about them, it was because it was already unlocked. I got it now. Thanks so much for the help

watheyak · Apr 21, 2016

Most of the GPS units lose lock due to acceleration and maybe COCOM limits. This one could solve both issues.

https://www.blackmagicmissileworks....&view=item&id=74:20-fps-gps-module&Itemid=190

cerving · Apr 21, 2016

watheyak said:
Most of the GPS units lose lock due to acceleration and maybe COCOM limits. This one could solve both issues.

https://www.blackmagicmissileworks....&view=item&id=74:20-fps-gps-module&Itemid=190

$5,000... ouch. Of course, if you have a $150G budget it might work...

What kind of telemetry system are you using? I assume you expect to get this thing back... otherwise you're just building a missile.

astroadrian99 · Apr 21, 2016

cerving said:
$5,000... ouch. Of course, if you have a $150G budget it might work...

What kind of telemetry system are you using? I assume you expect to get this thing back... otherwise you're just building a missile.

That's way too expensive. The most expensive we can go is $500, maybe $1000 depending on funds we get.

Jeffmhopkins · Apr 22, 2016

When doing some research of velocity limits I was told that this is horizontal velocity, not vertical (Garmin at least)

I've used a Copernicus GPS unit from Trimble with good success, which interprets the rule as a proper Boolean logic AND, but obviously didn't fly it anywhere near to that altitude, but I don't see why it wouldn't once configured to "air mode". Maybe an email to Trimble could verify that for you.

The Copernicus module is used in HAB projects for this reason all the time.

Jeffmhopkins · Apr 22, 2016

dhbarr said:
Isn't it true the the regulation specifies ( > 515 m/s AND > 18km ), although many/most manufacturers interpret as either / or?

I dont't have a lot of experience in the area, but my understanding is that some units will do fine > 1150mph s as long as you keep it under ~11mi or so.

When doing some research of velocity limits I was told that this is horizontal velocity, not vertical (Garmin at least)

I've used a Copernicus GPS unit from Trimble with good success, which interprets the rule as a proper Boolean logic AND, but obviously didn't fly it anywhere near to that altitude, but I don't see why it wouldn't once configured to "air mode". Maybe an email to Trimble could verify that for you.

The Copernicus module is used in HAB projects for this reason all the time.

astroadrian99 · Apr 22, 2016

I was looking into some other GPS and would piksi work since it has an open source code?

Reinhard · Apr 23, 2016

astroadrian99 said:
I was looking into some other GPS and would piksi work since it has an open source code?

In theory, yes:
https://github.com/swift-nav/libswiftnav/blob/master/src/pvt.c#L270

In practice, there appear to be some other issues with the piksi (noise, sensitivity...), from what I could gather.

Reinhard

astroadrian99 · Apr 23, 2016

Reinhard said:
In theory, yes:
https://github.com/swift-nav/libswiftnav/blob/master/src/pvt.c#L270

In practice, there appear to be some other issues with the piksi (noise, sensitivity...), from what I could gather.

Reinhard

Ok and what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that it is too sensitive with signals and it get too much interference from other objects?

H_Rocket · Apr 23, 2016

cerving said:
$5,000... ouch. Of course, if you have a $150G budget it might work...

For a Black Magic, that is just the opening gun

You still need

1) CPU Module - $850
2) Telemetry Module - $825
3) Power module - $225

Not to mention the Pyro, A/D, and a few other possibilities

It would be on my Lottery Winnings List...

Reinhard · Apr 25, 2016

astroadrian99 said:
Ok and what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that it is too sensitive with signals and it get too much interference from other objects?

I have no first hand experience with the Piksi, but googling "piksi sensitivity" will give you at least some indications:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/swiftnav-discuss/p7AfShm6Eu0
https://www.freelists.org/post/arocket/PIKSI-GPS-test

Reinhard

Donnie · Apr 27, 2016

astroadrian99 said:
Ok and what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that it is too sensitive with signals and it get too much interference from other objects?

I'm no expert, but my money's not on you making it to space...

astroadrian99 · Apr 27, 2016

Donnie said:
I'm no expert, but my money's not on you making it to space...

Why do you say that? All the math and test runs check out. I might not be an expert in electronics but I used to have a friend who was helping me however life has gotten on his way for now, his mom has gotten sick and is now hospitalized. So now I'm trying my best to keep on going with this till his mom gets back on her feet and hopefully she can see what we have accomplished.

jderimig · Apr 27, 2016

Astro, I admire your drive and ambition in the sciences and engineering required for this project. Especially for a high school student. Props. Do you have someone on your team who can do the 3D splash analysis that is required for the FAA to approve this flight?

Steve Shannon · Apr 27, 2016

If you really want to get your rocket into space, do the following:
1. Join Tripoli.
2. Join the Mavericks. They're a special prefecture within Tripoli that has Gerlach, Nevada/Black Rock Dry Lake as their launch site.
3. Don't join with the attitude of having done all the math and science there's nothing more to learn. Instead, pay attention to everything they say and do.
4. Volunteer, whether it's for range duty, helping lay up fiberglass or carbon fiber, sanding couplers, or sweeping floors.
5. Listen at least nine times more than offering your opinion especially at first. Right now you don't know what you don't know.
6. Don't get discouraged and don't take criticism personally.
7. Plan on starting small. Work through the three levels of certification with Tripoli.
8. On this forum and YouTube follow/subscribe to Tfish/Tfish38 on YouTube, JimJarvis50, and Blackjack2564.
9. Plan on this taking years, maybe decades, of your life. Von Braun, who knew a little more than you and a lot more than me, invested his entire life to this.
10. Study hard, get good grades in the University, and get an engineering degree.
Best wishes for success.

Titan II · Apr 27, 2016

Have you read this yet? It illustrates the magnitude of such a project.

https://www.the-rocketman.com/CSXT/default.asp

astroadrian99 · Apr 27, 2016

Titan II said:
Have you read this yet? It illustrates the magnitude of such a project.

https://www.the-rocketman.com/CSXT/default.asp

I actually know one of the guys in this, I have an internship where he works on (Syntheon LLC) and I actually volunteered on the qu8k rocket. By the way, the guy is Derek Deville. He's actually helped me a lot at first but he's been busy lately and he told me that he's not gonna do it for me, I just have to look for the stuff myself and he'll only tell me what's wrong with it. I should in theory finish it and then get his advice so I can modify.

astroadrian99 · Apr 27, 2016

jderimig said:
Astro, I admire your drive and ambition in the sciences and engineering required for this project. Especially for a high school student. Props. Do you have someone on your team who can do the 3D splash analysis that is required for the FAA to approve this flight?

I honestly have no idea what is that, we might have been calling it by a different name, we do that a lot. Do you mean the wind tunnel flow simulation thing?

Steve Shannon · Apr 27, 2016

No, a splash analysis is a simulation that is required for class 3 rockets. It shows the FAA where your rocket or its parts might land under different scenarios. It's a common term.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Software/RockSim_Pro/RockSim_Pro_v1_CD

[emoji1010] Steve Shannon, P.E. [emoji1010]

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