ematches - what's the story?

Nearing completion of my first dual deploy (scratch build) and starting to think about the details. Specifically e-matches. I didn't anticipate it would be so complicated with licenses and shipping and such. I've always been able to get HP motors and ignitors from an on-site vendor at our launches, but now I need the e-matches for ground testing and just thought I'd go on-line and order some up. Not so easy, I found. And then, of course, reliability is paramount. From what I found, the simplest solution from a shipping/license standpoint seems to be the Firewire Initiator from MJG Technologies, but then I wonder why. Is it less 'robust' or reliable as the J-tek and others on the market?

Thoughts on e-matches in general? How/where do you guys/gals get your e-matches and how good are they?

There are three options that are "legal":

1. Order Q2G2 from Quest if you can find them for sale. They will work with almost all altimeters I have tried. M

2. Order FireWire initiators. They are reliable. There was a period where these was an issue. It appears resolved now.

3. Order a kit and dip your own.

Of the three, number 2 is your best option. It is the most readily available, cheapest, and reliable. Number 3 takes skill and can be expensive. Number 1 is less available at this time.

The other option is to make other types of igniters. I've used xmas bulbs in parallel and the wires at the base of the filament wires removed. It's very old school, but they worked very reliably for me. They are time consuming to make and I never tried them with very high G motors like the AT I1299N.

Handeman said:

The other option is to make other types of igniters. I've used xmas bulbs in parallel and the wires at the base of the filament wires removed. It's very old school, but they worked very reliably for me. They are time consuming to make and I never tried them with very high G motors like the AT I1299N.

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We used a similar type of filament ignitor on Icarus 1 (ejection canisters) and did experience a charge failure. They work 100% perfectly every time on the ground, and the filament blew in the air, so we can only surmise the launch caused the powder to shift in the canister and fail to ignite. This was despite very tight packing of the charge in the canister to prevent the powder from moving around on us.

I know these work well under other circumstances, but we will be going with ematches in the future because of this.

Forget 3. Been there, done that. Two kits, unreliable. If one is lighting off pyrotechnics and get a few duds is one thing, failure on a rocket flight is not
a pretty option. Oh, the homemade matches weren't getting to be reliable until I made my own blanks from PC boards as I just so happened to have a reliable bench shear that was given to me that's over 40 years old now. Turned out the reliability seemed to improve after they aged for a few months in cool dry place.

I've never used them but occasionally take one out and pop it with a AAA Nimh or alkaline battery for my entertainment. Off hand I'd say go with the firewire
initiators. Kurt

I use these and have never had a problem. Bonus is they're cheap.
BILUSOCN 25 Pk 0.3M Electric Igniter / Electric Match (Fireworks, Pyrotechnics, Survival Fire Starter, Model Rocket Igniter) ¡* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HIDB1QY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I did see some of the 'make-your-own' kits, but don't think I'll be trying that or the xmas light solutions for my first dual deploy. Too many 'firsts' on this project and want to minimize the failure modes where I can. I think I'll order up some of the FireWire initiators and a pack of the Bilusocn matches (Thanks, Mark,,, those ARE cheap) and do some ground testing with my altimeter (MissleWorks RRC3) and see how each one fits in my AV bay set up before deciding on which one gets launched...

JackMatt said:

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I did see some of the 'make-your-own' kits, but don't think I'll be trying that or the xmas light solutions for my first dual deploy. Too many 'firsts' on this project and want to minimize the failure modes where I can. I think I'll order up some of the FireWire initiators and a pack of the Bilusocn matches (Thanks, Mark,,, those ARE cheap) and do some ground testing with my altimeter (MissleWorks RRC3) and see how each one fits in my AV bay set up before deciding on which one gets launched...

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I use ones similar (probably same manufacturer) to the Biluscon frequently with my RRC3 and a 9V battery and have no problems.

JackMatt said:

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I did see some of the 'make-your-own' kits, but don't think I'll be trying that or the xmas light solutions for my first dual deploy. Too many 'firsts' on this project and want to minimize the failure modes where I can. I think I'll order up some of the FireWire initiators and a pack of the Bilusocn matches (Thanks, Mark,,, those ARE cheap) and do some ground testing with my altimeter (MissleWorks RRC3) and see how each one fits in my AV bay set up before deciding on which one gets launched...

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If you see my post, I would not recommend it either. I am good at this and can get them reliable, but most are not. Plus, #3 is a little more expensive than 1 and 2.

Bilusocn matches will work also, but they are a little shady on the legal side.

Or you can do what 95% of the guys in the hobby do. Walk into you local venders trailer and pick up a box or two of MG (80 to a box) and maybe a pound of 4F and be done with it for the next several years.

lawndartman said:

Or you can do what 95% of the guys in the hobby do. Walk into you local venders trailer and pick up a box or two of MG (80 to a box) and maybe a pound of 4F and be done with it for the next several years.

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Ummmm, I would say you most likely have a good, established relationship with your vendor. I walked into a trailer one time many years ago to ask a simple question and got the cold shoulder. Had nothing to do with legalities. Person later apologized and thought I looked like some sort of investigator!! What? Me?:jaw: Kurt

raptor22 said:

We used a similar type of filament ignitor on Icarus 1 (ejection canisters) and did experience a charge failure. They work 100% perfectly every time on the ground, and the filament blew in the air, so we can only surmise the launch caused the powder to shift in the canister and fail to ignite. This was despite very tight packing of the charge in the canister to prevent the powder from moving around on us.

I know these work well under other circumstances, but we will be going with ematches in the future because of this.

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That's exactly why I used two in parallel and never used them in High G flights. I've been using nothing but matches for quite a while now.

raptor22 said:

We used a similar type of filament ignitor on Icarus 1 (ejection canisters) and did experience a charge failure. They work 100% perfectly every time on the ground, and the filament blew in the air, so we can only surmise the launch caused the powder to shift in the canister and fail to ignite. This was despite very tight packing of the charge in the canister to prevent the powder from moving around on us.

I know these work well under other circumstances, but we will be going with ematches in the future because of this.

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also something else to be mindful of for those utilising filament ignitors - make sure you really burn that filament up - I mean yellowy-white to white hot burn. I used to fly these all the time with good success until one day I was short of my normal 3V flavours and had to improvise with a 6V or 12V substitute I used for testing (I think it was 12V). Upon testing, it still illuminated to an orangey-yellowy glow (clearly visible in daylight) from my 5V flight electronics supply so I just naturally assumed that would be plenty hot enough to ignite BP. Well, learned from the flight and subsequent testing it wasn't hot enough to ignite the BP. It continually failed to ignite the BP until I pushed the voltage up to over (IIRC 6.5V) to provide a genuine yellowy glow.

These are expensive by any stretch. 100 percent so far: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Eject...nister?zenid=337f9e06852414191fecb0ee434038db

Another option: https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=60

jeff_j_black said:

These are expensive by any stretch. 100 percent so far: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Eject...nister?zenid=337f9e06852414191fecb0ee434038db

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These are the exact canisters that we had a failure with, but it's worth noting that it was a fairly high acceleration flight, around 50 G's.

The only issue with the Bilusocn lighters is that they take a while to arrive. I ordered some nearly 2 weeks ago from Amazon, and they won't arrive until next week at the earliest. Presumably they are on a slow boat from China.

BDB said:

The only issue with the Bilusocn lighters is that they take a while to arrive. I ordered some nearly 2 weeks ago from Amazon, and they won't arrive until next week at the earliest. Presumably they are on a slow boat from China.

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This is true. The only worry is if it is opened by the revenuers.

jeff_j_black said:

These are expensive by any stretch. 100 percent so far: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Eject...nister?zenid=337f9e06852414191fecb0ee434038db

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But look at the cost of a failure. I have seen several teams/individuals lawn dart big rockets because they cut corners on the parachute deployment system. Your recovery system is no place to be cheap.

Just a few weeks ago I saw a college-aged guy bring back the pieces of a nice K powered rocke<script id="gpt-impl-0.6151272895411893" src="https://partner.googleadservices.com/gpt/pubads_impl_83.js"></script>t that failed to deploy anything. He kept saying his altimeter must have failed. I asked what kind it was. He finds the av bay and points to the Perfectflite Stratolgger. I have a number of Perfectflite altimeters and they are tough and dependable, so I am skeptical that the altimeter is the cause of the problem.

We started the post mortem and I point to his battery and ask what it is. He pulls out the pieces (it had come apart) and shows me an Amazon brand battery. He says, "I got 8 of them for $10". I tell him to get another battery and plug in the altimeter to se if it works (we disconnected the charges first as they never went off). The altimeter boots up, but only reports 780 feet. Rather odd, but it confirms the altimeter is at least somewhat functional even after lawn darting. I tell him to get rid of the cheap batteries and use Duracells in the future, and to secure them so they don't disconnect at any point in the flight. I later realize that the altimeter has a big capacitor that would have provided a second or two of power AFTER the battery failed during the 25G load at liftoff. I can't prove it, but I bet the altimeter lost power when the battery disconnected or even broke apart during liftoff and that is why nothing was deployed. So the guy trashed a K powered rocket, an expensive GPS tracker, and his ego because he skimped on the recovery system. And ironically, I bet his altimeter still works.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/E-match-10...ystem-Electric-Igniters-display-/131738535564

These have treated me very well, I have had a pack of 100 of these rolling around in my range box for 2 years and they still are amazing every DD flight for me. im down to about 25 left so I will order more! But 13 Bucks for 100 is awesome!

Me, too, RocketRob.

Does anyone know what the story is regarding the Quest Q2G2 igniters? I bought a supply several years ago (thankfully), but see that they are on perpetual backorder from everyone, including Quest.

I test the resistance for each Q2G2 and use them for my DD charges, and never had a failure since I started flying again in 2009.

I have also used the old Newton's Third (similar /same construction to Pratt Hobbies?) prewired ejection canisters and have had 100% success but limited number of flights. I also test their resistance before using.

Mike Momenee
TRA #12430 L3

I notice a lot of folks hoarding Q2G2 igniters.

I believe it's because they're a good ematch substitute. If Quest were smart, they'd cater to that group that likes 'em. I remember getting piles of them with quest BP motors in days of old. I gave 'em away. Kurt

cwbullet said:

Another option: https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=60

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Does anybody dip their own ematches anymore? You gotta buy the dip, the wire, and the match heads. Then, the reliability is horrible once you make them (at least for me and my novice soldering skills). Given the abundance of cheap, commercial ematches now available, I don't see any value in trying to make your own. Even sketchy $0.15 Chinese matches will be far superior than homebrew.

RocketRob said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/E-match-10...ystem-Electric-Igniters-display-/131738535564

These have treated me very well, I have had a pack of 100 of these rolling around in my range box for 2 years and they still are amazing every DD flight for me. im down to about 25 left so I will order more! But 13 Bucks for 100 is awesome!

Click to expand...

Bat-mite said:

Me, too, RocketRob.

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Me Three. I got mine from Amazon last year, still on the first pack and have another of these from ebay on the way. Haven't had a single failure yet, although I do a visual inspection and a continuity check. Culls become ground test fodder, but I still have yet to have one fail or sputter.

Buckeye said:

Does anybody dip their own ematches anymore? You gotta buy the dip, the wire, and the match heads. Then, the reliability is horrible once you make them (at least for me and my novice soldering skills). Given the abundance of cheap, commercial ematches now available, I don't see any value in trying to make your own. Even sketchy $0.15 Chinese matches will be far superior than homebrew.

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This is absolutely not true. I have dipped my own igniters for nearly 10 years. I get nearly 100% reliability. They don't always light the motor but they always light.

As for ematches, I have never had one fail. That being said, I always check the resistance. I do dip my own. I do it just to experiment.

The reason not to do it is it is not cheaper. It is very reliable if you follow the directions. I use the blue and white ones the most.

Buckeye said:

Does anybody dip their own ematches anymore? You gotta buy the dip, the wire, and the match heads. Then, the reliability is horrible once you make them (at least for me and my novice soldering skills). Given the abundance of cheap, commercial ematches now available, I don't see any value in trying to make your own. Even sketchy $0.15 Chinese matches will be far superior than homebrew.

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Are you sure people even use the chinese matches for lighting motors? I have used them for ejection charges; they pop rather than fizzle and burn bright which I would think is not very good at lighting a motor. I haven't tried using them to light a motor so somebody who has might speak up.

I use the magnelite kits and wires that PML sells and have had excellent results even lighting motors that are 16 years old.

hball55 said:

Are you sure people even use the chinese matches for lighting motors? I have used them for ejection charges; they pop rather than fizzle and burn bright which I would think is not very good at lighting a motor. I haven't tried using them to light a motor so somebody who has might speak up.

I use the magnelite kits and wires that PML sells and have had excellent results even lighting motors that are 16 years old.

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They will light a bp and CTI motors.

cwbullet said:

They will light a bp and CTI motors.

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They will generally light smaller Blue Thunder motors as well.