Rocketry accident

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Well, I saw this on TV while I was on the recumbent bike at the gym much earlier this morning. I arrived at work a bit before 7 am and handled my urgent work related issues and then a couple of minutes ago I looked up the news reports.

I then posted a comment.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/04/05/thousand-oaks-elementary-school-rocket-explosion/

I did not see a "comment" option on the ABC7 site.

Comments are already posted on the NBC4 site:
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/...odel-Rocket-Explosion-374570821.html#comments
 
My condolences go out to the victims of this tragedy. Reported as a model rocket accident ? A big MEH from me; we've seen this before and we'll see it again. I'd like to know where the adults were and what they were letting those kids play with that caused an explosion so loud "... they thought it was a "sonic boom."".
 
This kind of inaccurate reporting is what lead the FAA to develop its most recent regulation, requiring anyone flying RC aircraft outdoors to register with the federal government. Is that what you guys want to happen with rocketry as well?
 
Back when I was painting my Level 3 project in February, I had to use a propane tank heater in my garage to get it warm enough. I also had an electrical heater going on the other side of the room. If I had blown myself up with the propane while painting my rocket, which had no motor in it, God knows what conclusions they would have come up with.
 
"Oh sh!!!!t! What are we gonna tell the cops?"

"Let's tell them we we making a model rocket."

"OK. Good idea. Better put some ice on that."
 
Thanks for that link Shread. Captain Kuredjian seems to have a clue.

Sadly, it's too late now, as the press already got their jollies with their sensationalist headline referencing a model rocket. Now onto the next big click-bait headline.
 
My condolences go out to the victims of this tragedy. Reported as a model rocket accident ? A big MEH from me; we've seen this before and we'll see it again. I'd like to know where the adults were and what they were letting those kids play with that caused an explosion so loud "... they thought it was a "sonic boom."".

One was an adult the other was 17. I hope I dont have to baby a 17-18 year old.
 
If you wish to put a face to this tragedy, there is a Bernard Moon from Thousand Oaks on Facebook. Very sad.
 
Stupid is as stupid does, 15 years or so ago some less than intelligent guy was tired of hauling
around both a acetylene and oxygen cylinders. So he decided to premix the gasses in an empty
propane tank.

He was attempting to use them in his basement. The resulting explosion leveled his house,
killing him and his teenage son. Insurance did not pay for the damage as it was considered
arson.

The wife tried suing the companies he purchased the gases and fittings from, she did not
get anywhere as the purchases were make at several different location to hide is purpose.
My welding supplier at the time was his first stop, the manager there (a friend of mine)
deduced what he was trying to do, told him not to do it and would not sell him any parts.

My friend ended up in court as a key witness testifying that he was told it would likely
explode...

Just saying...
 
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One was an adult the other was 17. I hope I dont have to baby a 17-18 year old.

Legally perhaps. I can only put myself back in my 18 year old frame of mind. Kid... big kid. Tragic loss nonetheless.
 
Teenagers are fearless. I know...I used to be one myself. No matter how intelligent they are they believe they are indestructible. See www.youtube.com
 
Tragic for both families.

Teenagers.

Some individuals should not be allowed access to energetic materials.
 
He received 2nd place for chemistry in the senior science fair.
 
It's time to tone it down guys. You weren't there and neither was I.

Reporters are exactly that, reporters. They weren't there, and they are simply reporting what they have been told by the AHJ controlling the scene and "eyewitnesses" of the event. The first line in any news story should contain the 5Ws: Who; What; Where; When; and Why. It is a report, Nothing more and nothing less. The rest of the story should be the accounts obtained by AHJ and primary sources, i.e. folks witnessing the incident.

You should understand that when an accident is reported, most of the primary source information is not correct. That's why accident investigations are conducted, and that takes time but it is how we learn what happened. The German Wings airliner crash in France is a perfect example of a story constantly changing as more facts are found by the investigators.

For example look at this report of the accident. https://abc7.com/news/1-dead-1-injured-after-explosion-at-thousand-oaks-elementary-school/1276558/ It is a 100% factual report by the reporter even though there are preliminary conclusions from interviewed individual that may not be correct.

Headline: "1 dead, 1 injured after explosion at Thousand Oaks elementary school" - totally factual.

First sentence: "One person was killed and another injured after an explosion in Thousand Oaks on Monday, according to Ventura County fire officials." - Totally factual.

"Authorities said a hobby rocket exploded at about 7:35 p.m. on the basketball courts at Madrona Elementary School near Lynn Road and Camino Manzanas." - factual reporting, but premature conclusion presented by the AHJ possibly due to "eyewitness" statement.

"The Ventura County Sheriff's Department said an 18-year-old man was taken to the hospital in critical condition and later succumbed to his injuries." - factual reporting

"A 17-year-old male was taken to the hospital with minor injuries, deputies said." - factual reporting

"The victims were making rockets when the explosion occurred, according to fire officials. A nurse at the scene was able to start treatment immediately while EMS crews headed to the school." - factual reporting, but premature conclusion presented by the AHJ possibly due to "eyewitness" statement.

"A meeting was being held at the school for the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts at the time of the explosion." - factual reporting

""Nobody could really discern what it really was because it was a huge explosion. It was just all at once. Just a 'boom!' Then that was it," Tammy Coburn, who was in the meeting, explained." - factual reporting

"A Girl Scout leader who was a former military member recognized the sound and went to investigate what happened." - factual reporting

"He quietly stepped out of the meeting, closed the door and went out," Coburn said. "He's the one that came upon the boys and then got the emergency help from a Girl Scout nurse." - factual reporting

"ABC7 learned the victims were seniors at Thousand Oaks High School and honor students." - factual reporting

""They're AP and honor students. Amazing, brilliant kids. That's why it's like, 'How could this have happened to them?' Because they're brilliant. They would've thought everything out. They would have put this all together the right way. So this was just a horrible, tragic accident," Coburn said." - factual reporting, but the person interviewed makes statements that portray an emotional response which ignore what happened.

TRF editorial comment: Doesn't the above response echo what the Admins get from some TRF members when we curtail discussions of amateur motor making by inexperienced teens on the public forums ????? Now you know why we do this........

"The identities of the injured were not immediately released. Ventura County sheriff's officials were investigating the incident." - factual reporting

"Because of the investigation, Madrona Elementary School was set to be closed on Tuesday." - factual reporting

So read news reports carefully before you draw any conclusions and complain about poor reporting.

Bob

Thanks so much for posting that, Bob. Usually I abhor quoting a very long post and only making a small comment to it but the above bears repeating.

- George Gassaway
 
I can think of a couple of ways that propane could be used in a rocket propelled object, one) as a reaction mass for a 'cold power' type rocket. two) as fuel for a 'woosh' rocket, 2a) fuel for a potato launcher.
Rex
 
OUR definition of a model rocket and the general public's definition (including a Fire Captain) is much different. If it has fins and designed to fly upwards propelled by thrust coming out the rear, the general public calls it a rocket. If it is not a large commercial/government rocket, they call it a model rocket. By the general public's definition, this is a home made model rocket. There are about 10,000 people in the US that are members of NAR or Tripoli. There are about 320,000,000 people in the US. That means only 1 in 32,000 Americans are members of a rocket organization. And most people who are not members are ignorant of the specifics of model rocketry.

I think that's the beef, "trying to make a rocket" vs "it was a model rocket". They mean two very different things, e.g. "trying to pour liquid N2O into the gas tank" vs "it was a race car".
The tragedy is that two "brilliant" high school seniors did something really stupid, and now one is dead and the other injured. It doesn't matter what they were doing, but it's truly unfortunate that others may have known what these guys were planning to do, and did not try to stop them, or at least make them aware that what they were planning to do was dangerous.

What really upsets me is the comments of Tammy Coburn who said, "They're AP and honor students. Amazing, brilliant kids. That's why it's like, 'How could this have happened to them?' Because they're brilliant. They would've thought everything out. They would have put this all together the right way. So this was just a horrible, tragic accident." Right! Not! Just because students are academically talented, it is wrong to assume that they know what they were doing, thought everything out, and put it all together the right way. This accident was totally preventable if someone had just stepped up and stopped them saying "No, you're not doing that, it's dangerous and you will get hurt." That's why we have teachers in school, and mentors and safety policies in our hobby.

Unfortunately people make stupid mistakes, but when someone plans to do something that is dangerous and they really don't know what they are doing, it's time for those who recognize the danger to step up and stop them, explaining why it is dangerous and suggesting alternatives. It's a lot harder to live with the knowledge that you might have prevented this tragedy but you did nothing to stop them. I know why certain folks get upset, however their rationale is flawed. Six months from now, no one is going to remember the comment about model rockets.

Bob
 
Well, I saw this on TV while I was on the recumbent bike at the gym much earlier this morning. I arrived at work a bit before 7 am and handled my urgent work related issues and then a couple of minutes ago I looked up the news reports.

I then posted a comment.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/04/05/thousand-oaks-elementary-school-rocket-explosion/

I did not see a "comment" option on the ABC7 site.

Comments are already posted on the NBC4 site:
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/...odel-Rocket-Explosion-374570821.html#comments

I posted a comment on the LA Times site. Please be respectful of others if you post; even those who don't post intelligent comments. You aren't doing the hobby any favors by being rude; even to the trolls. And remember that one person died and another was injured when you post.
 
Full disclosure , I just skimmed the article and did NOT spend any time really reading, but.......

Notice that in the comments, there is immediately a lively discussion wherein posters (one of whom "works at Boeing") make it VERY clear that this was not model rocketry and they even link to NAR.org.

Unfortunate tragedy, thoughts out to the family/friends of those injured/killed.

ssix
 
On a slight tangent. Does anyone have a list of injuries due
to a rocket or motor at a sanctioned NRA or Tripoli event?
 
Propane + something horizontally such as a skateboard; they was probably testing a pulsajet
 
There are a lot of issues to be concerned with here. It goes beyond this, or the other, recent incident.

Of course we are facing more regulations, or possibly some bans, on model rocketry.

Barring that effect, we must consider "research" and "experimental" motors. Even if we get the media outside of the "model rocket" paranoia, they could turn their comments to these topics.

It's important, at this point, that we somehow inform the media, and the world, about the actions of these children. They were not within the NFPA laws. They did not act within the Model Rocket Safety Code. They were not performing their work within the NAR or TRA organizations.

We also need to emphasize that this issue was similar in the 1950's. This is why the NAR was formed. To provide assistance and guidance for the safe exploration of the hobby of model rocketry. Only through informing the public of the truth and sharing our knowledge can we stem the flow of ignorance. Too bad the same cannot be said of stupidity in action.
 
Mr. News editor, it was some sort of accident involving an experimental 'pulse jet'.

What the heck is a 'pulse jet?!

It's a type of jet engine, indecently use by the Germans in WWII to propel their 'V1' flying bomb..

What, you mean a rocket engine?!

Uhm, no..

just call it a rocket engine.. a toy rocket engine.. a model rocket engine... Yeah, the public will understand that..
 
Propane + something horizontally such as a skateboard; they was probably testing a pulsajet

One of the overhead photos did show something resembling a air compressor that could be used to start a turbine or other jet.
 
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