Eggtimer Wifi Switch

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glenbo

Rocket Scientist/Fry Cook
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I want to use this new wifi switch in my Shapeshifter Jr. 2 stage specifically for my altimeter that will be powering my sustainer igniter. It will be either for a Raven 3 or an RRC3 I have both. Im leaning toward the Raven and my Av bay is really small. Like the idea of the final power up of the Raven at a distance away from the launch pad & everyone else just before launch.

The lipo recommended for the Raven is a 1S 10c 130 mah micro. The recommended battery for the Wifi switch is a 2S 300 mah minimum. If the Raven was powered though the battery of the wifi switch the Raven could fry during a surge. Can the Raven be powered by it's own recommended battery for the deployment & igniter duties but be turned on & off by the Wifi switch that is powered by it's own recommended battery?
 
Spend $40.00 and build a Quantum so you don't have to worry about it. https://www.eggtimerrocketry.com/Quantum.php
That would be one way around it. Seriously if you set the raven for 1 second deployment impulse I suspect it would be fine although you could ask Adrian.
I've flown my Raven 2's and 3's with the old 9V battery with no troubles.

I'm going to be flying a Raven with a 180mah 1S battery and I'd worry about long pad delay times and temperature issues if flying in the cold.
At a club launch, not so much a problem. Can get it on the pad quick and launched quickly without much waiting. Kurt
 
The Quantam would work fine for my redundancy deployment channels but the thing is the Quantam has only 2 channels. I need an available auxiliary channel for the airstart which the Raven or RRC3 does have. Im probably going to get the Quantam as well for use in another standard dual deploy rocket.
 
Ok, understand. If you are going to use an auxiliary channel for an airstart, doesn't matter what you use then. If your igniter system sucks a lot of current that exceeds what the battery can provide, you'll be in trouble.
If it sucks so much that the FET capacity on the Raven is exceeded, you'll toast the Raven.

I suspect the EggTimer WiFi switch will provide whatever current is called upon but if you exceed the capacity of the
Raven, it'll be toast.

You should consider an ematch augmented igniter for an airstart or a sensitized thermite to get the job done. You might be rudely surprised if you're going to stick some sort of high resistance igniter in the mix.

Whatever you do, ground test the igniter and keep in mind the worst that can happen is you toast the Raven.

Kurt
 
We've tested the Eggtimer Remote Switch with a Raven, it works fine. You might want to ask Featherweight about 2S battery recommendations for airstarts, depending on your igniter/motor it may be different that what you'd use for an ordinary ematch. My gut feeling is that at 350 mAH 20C battery is probably fine.
 
Glenn,,
I use pyrodex to supplement a regular e match to do airstarts....
I've been lighting Aerotech Blackjack and Fastjack propellant
with this method. .. works like a charm...
And completely eliminates any concerns about too high of a current draw
From the ignitor. ....
I've been using the same matches for deployment
and to airstart the 2 outboard motors on my build Europa Express. ...

Teddy
 
What I'm trying to convey is the recommended Lipo battery for the wifi switch (2S 300 mah) according to the specs of the Raven, RRC3 & Stratologger used in the Eggtimer wiring instructions does not match the recommended Lipo battery for the altimeters especially the Raven. Featherweight recommends a 1S 10C 130 mah Lipo. Does the Wifi switch battery have to power the pyro charges of the altimeter as well as the off /on mechanism? Can the the altimeter still use it's own battery to power the pyro charges independently of the switch in order to keep within the safety specs of the altimeter?
 
Adrian may pipe in here, but the issue isn't the battery for the Raven itself, it's drawing too much power (current x voltage) for the FET in the Raven to handle. We put a pretty big FET in the WiFi switch because we have no way of knowing what you're gonna put in behind it. Theoretically, that 130 mAH/10S LiPo can out put out 1.3A of current, that's a pretty low amount but it is above the all-fire current for ematches such as a J-Tek (which typically have an all-fire current of 750-1000 mA). If your sustainer igniter is basically an ematch, such as those shipped with most CTI motors, or a dipped one like Teddy suggests, there shouldn't be any issue with the Raven and a larger battery because it's only going to draw what it takes to fire the ematch. This is something that you can easily ground-test... do a thorough sim and test the heck our of everything that you can. Better to fry something on the ground in testing than in flight.
 
Thanks for that Cris, that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I think it is also along the lines of what Teddy was trying to explain. I will be using CTI for this rocket because of ease of ignition & they use a Jtek style of ematch for their ignitor so I should be good.
 
I haven't been dipping the matches guy's...
It's not necessary...
When I'm doing an airstart I have the e match all the way to the top of the motor just like lighting the motor on the ground...
A pyrodex pellet is pressed into the top grain,, the match is up against the pellet...
I want the match head to carry as little mass as possible...
The less mass the match head carries the less likely it will be to move aft on the pad from the G's of ignition of the main or central motor...
Plus, the pyrodex lights so easily dipping the match just isn't necessary...
So my airstarts use the exact same amount of current as my deployment charges,, because they're the exact same match......

I was just at Cabelas too,, had a box of pyrodex pellets in my hand,, but I don't need another box yet,,, lol...

Teddy
 
The Raven uses those tiny lipos as a means of limiting the current which can be sourced through the FETs in a dead short. The Main/APO channels only have 9 amp FETs because normal ematches are unlikely to cause short during a deployment event. Motor igniting causing a dead short has "a high chance of happening" according to Featherweight, so the 3rd and 4th channel FETs are rated to 40 amps.

From Adrian A:
"A 300 mAhr 2S battery will definitely put out enough current to permanently damage a Raven's Apogee or Main output channels in the event of a short. Output shorts are fairly common during user ground testing, and they happen every time during airstarts with head-end ignition. Persistent shorts after a deployment charge ignition are less common, but possible as well. The Raven's Apogee and Main FETs can handle over 8 Amps for the 1-second firing duration, which is higher tolerance than some (most?) altimeter output channels, and 100s of times more power than is required to fire ematches. The Raven's 3rd and 4th channels, typically used for airstarts, use a larger FET that can handle over 25 Amps. They might stand a chance against the battery you're recommending in a short situation, but there are slightly larger lipo packs that can kill even them.

Please, Bob, help spread the word to avoid powering a Raven with a lipo battery that's larger than 1S, 170 mAhrs. This is spelled out in the user's manual, found here. I just patched up a Raven a couple of days ago that had its Apogee FET blown out, the traces underneath the FET melted, and also opened the current sense resistor. The user said he used a 300 mAhr battery like the one you're recommending. He had an LED connected to the output without a current-limiting resistor. I couldn't replace the MOSFET on the bad channel because of the trace damage. If it had flown again before being fixed, the dead current-limiting resistor would have prevented a deployment on any of the channels. In more mild cases, a FET that has an overcurrent failure will stay permanently shorted, which can allow output current to fire whatever is connected as soon as the switch is turned on.

With the Raven (and probably some other altimeters too) small lipo batteries work great with any ematch and just about any ignitor other than a Copperhead. Larger lipo batteries are unnecessary and dangerous for typical rocketry applications. Thanks for your help with this."

As I understand it this makes them a bit of an iffy combination with the wifi switch if you're doing airstarts. I've used them successfully together, without issue, but I did not do any motor ignition.

I assume the only reason we don't hear about this with other altimeters is because they are used less frequently for airstarts, or are physically larger so they have current limiting/bigger FETs/etc.
 
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The Raven uses those tiny lipos as a means of limiting the current which can be sourced through the FETs in a dead short. The Main/APO channels only have 9 amp FETs because normal ematches are unlikely to cause short during a deployment event. Motor igniting causing a dead short has "a high chance of happening" according to Featherweight, so the 3rd and 4th channel FETs are rated to 40 amps.

From Adrian A:
"A 300 mAhr 2S battery will definitely put out enough current to permanently damage a Raven's Apogee or Main output channels in the event of a short. Output shorts are fairly common during user ground testing, and they happen every time during airstarts with head-end ignition. Persistent shorts after a deployment charge ignition are less common, but possible as well. The Raven's Apogee and Main FETs can handle over 8 Amps for the 1-second firing duration, which is higher tolerance than some (most?) altimeter output channels, and 100s of times more power than is required to fire ematches. The Raven's 3rd and 4th channels, typically used for airstarts, use a larger FET that can handle over 25 Amps. They might stand a chance against the battery you're recommending in a short situation, but there are slightly larger lipo packs that can kill even them.

Please, Bob, help spread the word to avoid powering a Raven with a lipo battery that's larger than 1S, 170 mAhrs. This is spelled out in the user's manual, found here. I just patched up a Raven a couple of days ago that had its Apogee FET blown out, the traces underneath the FET melted, and also opened the current sense resistor. The user said he used a 300 mAhr battery like the one you're recommending. He had an LED connected to the output without a current-limiting resistor. I couldn't replace the MOSFET on the bad channel because of the trace damage. If it had flown again before being fixed, the dead current-limiting resistor would have prevented a deployment on any of the channels. In more mild cases, a FET that has an overcurrent failure will stay permanently shorted, which can allow output current to fire whatever is connected as soon as the switch is turned on.

With the Raven (and probably some other altimeters too) small lipo batteries work great with any ematch and just about any ignitor other than a Copperhead. Larger lipo batteries are unnecessary and dangerous for typical rocketry applications. Thanks for your help with this."

As I understand it this makes them a bit of an iffy combination with the wifi switch if you're doing airstarts. I've used them successfully together, without issue, but I did not do any motor ignition.

I assume the only reason we don't hear about this with other altimeters is because they are used less frequently for airstarts, or are physically larger so they have current limiting/bigger FETs/etc.

Thanks for that James. Yes I have heard Adrian warn about using a lipo larger than 1S 170 mAh before thus the reason for starting this thread. The fact that I would be using CTI engines only for this 2 stage, would that change things in my favor? The CTI ignitors are actually low current ematches (Jtek). I guess if a short did occur the match is not the issue but the max power that the Lipo is capable of delivering through the FET's right? I like the idea of this Wifi switch in regards to safety in prepping and turning on the system from a distance because it is equiped with an airstart. If the Raven turns out to be not the best choice for my situation I can always use an RRC3 which also has an extra channel that can be programmed for airstarts. But I would prefer the Raven. I'm sure Cris has done his homework. It would be interesting to know what Adrian would think considering that I plan to use a low amp CTI igniter for the airstart.
 
I have not yet used a Raven for airstarts, but I vaguely recall someone saying it's not the choice of ematch vs igniter that causes the short but rather the presence of the igniter in the plasma environment of the combustion chamber or some such.
 
I'm not sure how it happens,,
but I remember reading that when a match is used to ignite a motor,
when the motor ignites it creates a dead short across the match..
I think this happens until the match is ejected from the motor..
A short time but still a dead short..

Teddy
 
I'm not sure how it happens,,
but I remember reading that when a match is used to ignite a motor,
when the motor ignites it creates a dead short across the match..
I think this happens until the match is ejected from the motor..
A short time but still a dead short..

Teddy

It's starting to make more sense now (even for a guy like me)
You know being my first 2 stage I've asked lots questions & I keep redesigning the electronics sled on paper looking for a simple but safe design. I have a skinny 7 in. 54mm. av bay so eliminating physical switches would be a great advantage. The Raven or RRC3 would be powered on & off with the wifi switch & the redundancy Stratologger would use a magnetic switch. Just when you think you have it all figured out.........hmmmm. After 3 months I'm still staring at a blank sled lol.
 
Have you considered using the Raven on a power perch with the magnetic switch? This would simplify the wifi power requirement but still avoid the need to mount a switch.
 
I have a power perch & had considered it. When I prep and put the rocket on the launchpad I am trying to avoid turning on the altimeter that controls the airstarts while on the ladder. I have investigated shunts & separate igniter switches & found this to be the safest & most simple solution.
 
Sorry, but I'm not your mother. It's not my job to tell you what battery you can, or can't, use with your altimeter. Read your manual.

It's not my fault if you don't obey Ohm's law when selecting your e-matches and draw too much current thru the FETs in the altimeter.

But it's also not your fault if an altimeter manufacturer fails to current limit his altimeter's power input to prevent the load from drawing more current than the FET is rated for. It's not hard to do. A Low DropOut 3-terminal current regulator circuit is cheap and easy to implement, so there's no excuse for not using one if current limiting is critical for reliable pyrotechnic operation.

Bob
 
Sorry, but I'm not your mother. It's not my job to tell you what battery you can, or can't, use with your altimeter. Read your manual.

It's not my fault if you don't obey Ohm's law when selecting your e-matches and draw too much current thru the FETs in the altimeter.

But it's also not your fault if an altimeter manufacturer fails to current limit his altimeter's power input to prevent the load from drawing more current than the FET is rated for. It's not hard to do. A Low DropOut 3-terminal current regulator circuit is cheap and easy to implement, so there's no excuse for not using one if current limiting is critical for reliable pyrotechnic operation.

Bob

Neat Bob, What deployment devices have an LDO current regulator circuit would be the follow-on question? I was thinking if one limits the "on" time for an ematch circuit for 1 second that's more than enough to get the match to pop and perhaps prevent an overcurrent situation? Kurt
 
I don't know of any that use a LDO for the deployment OUTPUT, typically the LDO is used to power the silicon, and the input to the FET's source is straight from the battery. I don't know if the LDO's used in most altimeters could handle the current of an ematch, particularly a shorted one... the SOT-23 packages that most use are good for about 150 mA, and the SOT-223's (which we use) are good for 800 mA. A dead-short will kill a LDO, too... been there, done that. It just takes longer than blowing a FET, and it's not nearly as spectacular.
 
I don't know of any that use a LDO for the deployment OUTPUT, typically the LDO is used to power the silicon,

You are confusing LDO voltage regulators and LDO current regulators.
 
As a retrofit to any altimeter that does not employ current limiting, you could build/design/purchase a LDO 3-terminal device current regulator/limiter and put in in series with the battery output. This fix will work with any altimeter.

As a side note, check out https://electronicdesign.com/analog/whats-all-current-limiter-stuff-anyhow written by one of the true analog gurus, Bob Pease. I religiously read his columns for many years. Unfortunately he died 5 years ago, but Electronics Design is issuing a free e-book of his best stuff. If you want it, you can get it from the link in the article.

Bob
 
As a retrofit to any altimeter that does not employ current limiting, you could build/design/purchase a LDO 3-terminal device current regulator/limiter and put in in series with the battery output. This fix will work with any altimeter.

Bob

It is much more preferable to limit the current output (load) than the input. For example if there is current limiter circuit between the battery and the altimeter and the load shorts then the voltage input to the altimeter will go to 0 and likely brown out your altimeter. You saved your FET but destroyed the rocket (and probably the altimeter anyways).

Current limit the output and your altimeter is always happy. If your altimeter does not limit current output you can place a sufficiently high wattage ~1 ohm resistor in series with your pyro wiring. For a 1S battery you can shade the resistance closer to 0.75ohms, for a 2S system you can shade to 1.25 ohms.
 
If you do a search for LDO current regulators you find exactly one (ST's LED2000DR) that's rated anywhere near the required current... most of them are designed to put out relatively low currents. It would be easier to just put a 1/2 to 1 ohm 10W wire-wound resistor in series with the igniter to limit the dead-short current from the FET to an amp or two. Just mount the resistor on your sled and it's all good.

If you want to be clever, you could probably use something like a GFI detector (i.e. Fairchild RV4145A) to shut off the FET if it detects a dead short... that would be fun to play with.

You are confusing LDO voltage regulators and LDO current regulators.
 
What I'm trying to convey is the recommended Lipo battery for the wifi switch (2S 300 mah) according to the specs of the Raven, RRC3 & Stratologger used in the Eggtimer wiring instructions does not match the recommended Lipo battery for the altimeters especially the Raven. Featherweight recommends a 1S 10C 130 mah Lipo. Does the Wifi switch battery have to power the pyro charges of the altimeter as well as the off /on mechanism? Can the the altimeter still use it's own battery to power the pyro charges independently of the switch in order to keep within the safety specs of the altimeter?


Stated in the Raven 3 Manual:

"A separate deployment charge battery,
up to 20V, can be used in combination with a lower-voltage battery for the electronics."

Good info for the OP however Featherweight does not elaborate on this dual battery config.
 
I've wondered about that note too, but I've never found any further explanation or seen anybody use two batteries on a Raven 3 so I assume it's a typo from an earlier revision.
 
I've wondered about that note too, but I've never found any further explanation or seen anybody use two batteries on a Raven 3 so I assume it's a typo from an earlier revision.

You have two batteries both connected to the same ground (-) terminal on the Raven. One battery (low voltage for altimeter board) and switch goes directly to Raven +V input. Second separate battery (high voltage) and its own switch feed into the e-matches.
 
Ah awesome! Thanks for the explanation. It doesn't eliminate the OP's problem of wanting to use a wifi switch with a raven and lipo, since presumably having a second physical switch for a small lipo to feed the matches would defeat the purpose of the original wifi switch in the first place, and using another wifi switch would require a larger lipo. But in the event of a head end sustainer ignition dead short, having two small lipos running the altimeter with the sustainer igniter on its own battery could at least prevent killing the flight battery while remaining under the FET's limits I guess. Or just use a resistor like above. :)
 
Going by the Raven's specs, if you put a 1 ohm 10W resistor in series with the airstart igniter you'll be fine with a 2S LiPo and the WiFi Switch since it can't draw more than about 8A even if the igniter dead-shorts. That will also prevent any possible brownout issues, too. Just ground test it thoroughly, of course...
 
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