NAR/Tripoli & CAR - Why the discrepancy in written test requirement?

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KThomson

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Hi there,

My apologies if this topic has been thrashed to death but I did not find anything in my searches.

I'm a CAR member with no HP certification. I am looking to certify and am confused by the discrepancy between the NAR/Tripoli certification where L1 allows H and I impulse motors without a written test whereas CAR requires the written test for their L1/H impulse certification.

Can I join NAR in Canada, certify L1 without a written test and fly H and I impulse in Canada at NAR/Tripoli events?

Thanks,
Kevin
 
Well level 1 in Canada is only H motors, level 2 is I motors, whereas NAR and Tripoli put both H and I under level 1. So the whole process is a bit different.

I believe you can join NAR and fly H and I motors after certification as long as you are at a launch where that applies.
 
I'm not currently a paid CAR member so let me be clear that I don't speak for CAR. The rules for launching high power rockets in Canada were written in Canada with some guidelines taken from TRA and NAR. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Transport Canada required the written test for L1. I can't say that for certain though. It's not a difficult test. If you are already a member of CAR, contact your provincial rep. and they will guide you. In some cases you can take the test well in advance of a high power launch by making arrangements to meet with a rep. I did that once when I was the BC rep. Otherwise, you can write at a launch.

To make it shorter, there is no "discrepency", there are different rules. You'll find others as you progress through the levels.
Also, I believe you will find that you must have a CAR membership to fly at a CAR launch. This is an insurance requirement.
NAPAS is a different matter and I am not familiar with their rules.
 
It is what it is. As LenB said: To make it shorter, there is no "discrepency", there are different rules. You'll find others as you progress through the levels.

Looks like an answer to me.
 
KThompson, you are trolling. I don't know what you are trying to start but there is no point. Contact CAR, TRA or NAR directly as suggested if you really need an answer. You are now in my ignore list. This is meant to be fun, and a hobby. I don't need to read crap from trolls.
 
I don't see anything trolling in his post. He just asked a question. Okay, we know the tests are different because they are different bodies with different requirements, but his question about certifying through NAR in Canada is still unanswered. I'll add my voice to samb and recommend calling them.
 
KThompson, you are trolling. I don't know what you are trying to start but there is no point. Contact CAR, TRA or NAR directly as suggested if you really need an answer. You are now in my ignore list. This is meant to be fun, and a hobby. I don't need to read crap from trolls.

Agree with Len. Leave this alone. When I've had rule issues or suggestions, I've written directly to the respective board via email. Sometimes I got a reply like, "Calm down, this is going to be changed in the coming months to what you're suggesting so please bear with it." Or I got a very detailed reason for why it is what it is.

That said, I was ready to jump in on a closed list-serv when folks discussed a contentious subject but I don't think it's appropriate to air rule beefs in a public forum such as this one. Kurt Savegnago
 
I don't see anything trolling in his post. He just asked a question. Okay, we know the tests are different because they are different bodies with different requirements, but his question about certifying through NAR in Canada is still unanswered. I'll add my voice to samb and recommend calling them.

You're wrong John, It could lead to an inappropriate comment like, "Canadians are stupid not to let L1's fly H and I's" whereas the person in question should contact the organization directly for the background concerning the rules.
If he doesn't like them, he can start a movement to get them changed. Trying to incite people, as I am ONLY posting the example above and mean no harm, is the outcome of this line of questioning.

Then the questioner sits back and reads with glee as people pummel each other. Kurt
 
In Canada CAR/ACF is the predominant organization. Transport Canada and CAR/ACF worked closely to draft rules and regulations. This is why there may be discrepencies between rules and regulations. Sometimes we have it easier sometimes not. Another example of differences is that in the US certain F and G motors require level 1 to fly. In Canada a F is an F and a G is a G.

If you are at a CAR launch you must be a member. This is part of the requirements of the CAR insurance policy.

The test is written before you can attempt a level 1 cert flight.

If you certify with NAR or Tripoli the certification will be honored and you will be given equivalent CAR certification.

If you still have questions as suggested contact organization executives.

If you are in the Edmonton area I would encourage you to join the Edmonton Rocketry Club. There is currently no membership fee and we are happy to help new fliers.
 
First off, I want to apologize for my last response as I did not mean to be rude or ungrateful.

I'm not trolling in any way. I have a valid question and was hoping that with all the experience on this forum, someone would be able to answer. It's not a beef, it's a question and I'm not trying to start anything.

As suggested, I'll look elsewhere for the answer. Thanks to those who tried.
 
First off, I want to apologize for my last response as I did not mean to be rude or ungrateful.

I'm not trolling in any way. I have a valid question and was hoping that with all the experience on this forum, someone would be able to answer. It's not a beef, it's a question and I'm not trying to start anything.

As suggested, I'll look elsewhere for the answer. Thanks to those who tried.

Hey KThompson,

If you are looking for an answer just for your knowledge then I would visit the respective sites and possibly contact them for clarification on any questions you have. If you are asking because you want to know what is your best option, then I can tell you what I did when I was considering my choices.

When I got back into rocketry I joined CAR but then realized that the closest club was 6 or so hours away, so after the first eyar I let my CAR membership lapse. After a bit of research I found NAPAS, a Tripoli prefecture and one of the clubs that has worked closely with Transport Canada to help establish this hobby in Canada. Shortly after I joined NAPAS we lost our local launch site, (2 hour drive and 4,400' AGL) however as it turns out we are 4 hours away from some amazing sites in the US (8,000 to 18,000 AGL) so even though it was disappointing to lose our local field, something we are trying to rectify, all is not lost due to the amazing options in the US. Now the US dollar does not help right now but there is not much that we can do about that.

So I would say where you are located and where/what you plan to fly is the biggest factor in the path you should choose.

Not to go off on a tangent but I would like to comment on the L1 written test requirement, keeping in mind that I am Tripoli. I see this as a double edged sword. Personally I would like to see a test of sorts for L1, and a harder test for L2 as well as different hardware requirements to demonstrate advancement. As it stands right now essentially the difference between L1 and L2 is pretty much just the written test and this seems a bit nonsensical to me. However I see the logic in this as making the entry requirements harder may be prohibitive for some and ultimately not a benefit tot he hobby in general. There is likely a valid argument both ways for being prohibitive and not prohibitive at the entry point, which I do not want to start a discussion on.

The bottom line is I would not let a written test dissuade you either way, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by furthering your knowledge in this hobby and as far as I am concerned the sooner the better.

Have fun and good luck.
 
Suffice it to say promulgating further testing is likely to elicit blank looks and you know, it's always easier to make up "more rules" when one has already qualified under simpler guidelines.
Kurt "I am not a troll" Savegnago:tongue:
 
it's always easier to make up "more rules" when one has already qualified under simpler guidelines.
Kurt "I am not a troll" Savegnago:tongue:

Hey "Kurt "I am not a troll"...KNT for short.

I hear you, and it certainly does not seem like a very democratic option. However I would welcome it if the powers that make these decisions opted to investigate this, which I am pretty sure has been discussed many times over the years, and likely dropped for a variety of reasons, including this.

Like I said I don't want to derail KThompson's thread, as I could see this one getting out of hand fast.
 
Kevin,

Let me try and answer your questions. I was part of the CAR High-Power development team back in 1994 when we first developed both the CAR HP Exam and the Four certification level structure of the program.
Following Sullivan Lake 1 High-Power launch held in September 1993, we embarked upon a program to test and certify Adult CAR members to allow their participation in the hobby.
Our efforts predated both Tripoli and NAR's efforts by about a year, hence the difference in the Canadian program from the American version.

I will expound upon our reasoning as to the four level structure as my memory recalls.

Level 1 161-320 NS (H motors)

Entry level , allowing the use of standard existing Mid Power model rockets with minimal modifications

Level 2 321-640NS (I motors)

First level where Sonic velocities could be routinely expected, where construction techniques would require more robustness, such as the use of through the wall fins, phenolic tubing.
To handle the high drag/shock wave formation at transonic speeds.

Level 3 641-5120 NS (J-L motor)

First level where multi-mach flights are possible. Additionally change in construction to widespread use of phenolic, or fibreglass reinforced kraft paper or phenolic tubing, fibreglass composite fins etc.


Level 4 5121- 40960NS (M-O motors)

In addition to the flight and construction envelopes experience for level 3 vehicles, level 4 had the additional requirement for redundant recovery systems for vehicles in excess of 5kg loaded mass. This would now require electron/avionic systems. Remembering that in the early 1990'S barometric and accelerometer based avionics were in their infancy, most level 1 through 3 projects were still relying on motor ejection.


Now the CAR HP test, was developed as a 50 question multiple choice/short answer format pulling from ERD/Transport Canada Aviation regulations, the CAR HP safety code, and rocketry engineering and propulsion information.
A CAR HP candidate would be allowed to successfully fly their first H powered rocket prior to writing and passing the exam, but to continue on, or progress to subsequent levels would be required to write and pass same.

We did develop a study guide in 1995, and of course the regulations and CAR HP program has evolved over the past 2 decades with continued interaction between CAR, and ERD/Transport Canada as well as both Tripoli and NAR.

Hope this helps, I would be happy to address any further questions if they arise.
Best of luck with your pending exam!

Garth Illerbrun
CAR S04 L3
NAR 26894 L2
 
Hi Garth,

I am glad you came in here and answered the questions. I don't know anyone else who could answer them since you were there and part of it.
I learned something here too and I appreciate that.

Kthomson, I did find your posts to be agressive in tone. That's part of the problem with the online forum. Messages are often miscontrued.
I stand corrected and I also see the value in the post and the answer it generated.

Regards,

Len Bryan
 
Len,

Glad to help, I may be the only one who remembers those developments of the early 1990's, as most of the original group have gone on to other things.

Garth
 
Poutines all around!

This thread is in line with the one I started a while back in the Coffee House..

We are both in the same boat. Closest club to certify is in Quebec, but will have only a few launches, and most likely a 5+hr drive.

If we drive 6 hrs, we can hit the Potter & Genesco NY sites (among others).. Which probably have a lot more people, members, and launches.

So, We will join NAR (Or TRA) and fly out of NY (and join a NY club). But, how does that relate to CAR? Canadian launches.. Should it? What if we want to join CAR later.. Will we need to recertify? (No. At least that's the assumption..) We will write the US test for certification, but will Transport Canada requirements ever come up? If we want to fly at a Canadian launch, that is NAR or TRA sanctioned, will we need CAR (Again, no, not a CAR affiliated launch, or so we understand).

it just seems strange that we, Canadian, can join a US club, join a US Organization, and [eventually] fly on Canadian Soil, circumventing the Canadian organization & requirements..

We've reached out the local Area CAR rep, and he's answered a few questions. I've tried to contact another CAR rep, but the CAR website seems to be screwed up, as it won't let you contact any of the execs ('Kapcha string does not match'), To which, I'm also somewhat surprised that none of the CAR execs have chimed in, let alone seem to frequent this site..


Case closed. Sorry CAR, Sorry Canada..
 
Garth, thank you for that explanation. I had not realized that the CAR process predated the others and for some reason had always assumed it was the other way around.

Len, apologies again. Didn't intend to come off that way and yes, this is a problem with e-mail and forums. Sometimes the best intentions can be misinterpreted.

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Kevin
 
If you certify with NAR or Tripoli the certification will be honored and you will be given equivalent CAR certification.

I do not believe this is the case. My understanding is that CAR does not recognize Tripoli certification and in order to fly HPR with CAR,Tripoli High Power certified members have to be restested. I know members of the Ottawa Rocketry Group (which is a Tripoli prefecture) have had to retest when they joined CAR so that they could fly HPR with the Quebec CAR group.

Please correct me if this is not the case.
 
Would that, then, also apply to NAR members? (And is essentially what this whole thread is about?!)

Incidentally, the ARQ (Quebec rocket club) is supposed to be hosting a launch on the 21st of May..
 
I do not believe this is the case. My understanding is that CAR does not recognize Tripoli certification and in order to fly HPR with CAR,Tripoli High Power certified members have to be restested. I know members of the Ottawa Rocketry Group (which is a Tripoli prefecture) have had to retest when they joined CAR so that they could fly HPR with the Quebec CAR group.

Please correct me if this is not the case.

You are incorrect. We have flown at RocLake many times over the years. Our certifications have always been honored. Here's what it says on the CAR site:

Administrative Items
Tripoli and NAR Certifications CAR has a reciprocal agreement with the two Rocketry Associations in the US, Tripoli and NAR. What this means is that Tripoli and NAR HPR Certifications will be honoured at CAR Launches. Tripoli and NAR members must show evidence of their Certification level and membership prior to launching and they may fly to their current certification level, but not beyond. For example, a NAR flyer with a NAR Level 2 Certification would be able to fly up to a n L Impulse motor at a CAR-sponsored launch.

Canadian Tripoli members wishing to grandfather into CAR must:
Pay a CAR membership fee
Give evidence of certification
Complete the C.A.R. certification exam
 
Canadian Tripoli members wishing to grandfather into CAR must:
Pay a CAR membership fee
Give evidence of certification
Complete the C.A.R. certification exam

I think this is where all the confusion comes from.. If I certify at level 1 with NAR in the US, does my level 1 NAR cert allow me to fly level 1 in Canada, at CAR events? I think this is the jist of the original post.. (Not t mention, do I get it for a year? or for life once I pass?) I believe we now have both a yes & no answer to the question..
 
The rules are clearly written. NAR or TRA members may fly at their current certification levels. (That is not the same as being certified at those levels by CAR!)
If a Canadian Tripoli member wishes to be certified by CAR, he or she must follow the steps listed: membership fee, proof of certification, and L1 CAR test. Once that's done the person is certified by CAR. Like NAR certification, CAR certification levels do not reset if CAR membership expires.
Here's the page that specifically speaks to that:
https://www.canadianrocketry.org/cert_level_1-3.php
 
Steve, I applaud you for the answer we've been looking for! thank you!!

The CAR website & our prefect differ on the level resetting. so, we were confused. (NAR & CAR for life, TRA for membership length)

CAR & NAR (and TRA) seem to differ in what is initially required for L1, L2, but will let the other organization certified flyer fly at their event.. (Yes, in most cases..)

Is there a loophole, where I can get my L1 with NAR, then L2, and then join CAR and get my L2 "just because I have it with NAR" (no, take the CAR test..)
 
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