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  1. #1
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    Rail and Rail Button Comparison

    I'm so tired of rod whip. Even on 18mm motors, I have seen too many issues with rod whip throwing off the trajectory.

    I've been using 1010 buttons on everything with at least 24mm MMTs and BT-55 or above. But 1010 buttons look wrong on such small rockets.

    I've seen buttons in Unistrut, 1515, 1010, Mini, and Micro. What tube size vs engine size would you recommend for each size? Obviously, Micro buttons on a BT-80 with an E9 would probably be a bad idea. But would you use Mini buttons on a PSII kit? Micro on a BT-60? I'm looking for a good rule of thumb.

    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  2. #2
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    7th February 2009
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    Arlington, TX
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    Sounds like you want a c-rail: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/cat...712est104.html


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UhClem View Post
    I was looking more for info on which sized button to use on what size rocket up to what max engine.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  4. #4
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    Lake Placid, NY
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    Hi Kruegon,
    For the last 10+ years, I have had 30 to 40 kids building rockets from scratch and for the last five years, I have had kids design MPR using RockSim and build them using LOC Precision components. This is my second year using micro buttons on BT-50 rockets (18 and 24 mm MMT's) and mini buttons on larger LPR (still 18 and 24 mm MMT's). I don't have them using regular 1010 rail buttons until they get into MPR out of LOC-Precision tubing. My basic "rule of thumb" is micro rail replaces 1/8" rod and mini replace 1/4" rod. No problems so far.
    Hope that helps,
    Matt
    URRG (MRSI) - Torrey Farms Rocks
    2011 NAR Robert L. Cannon Educator Award recipient
    An L3 ADD rocket enthusiast - enjoying micro-maxx to M (so far), scale, odd-rocs, RC rocket boost gliders, staging, and EX.
    "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." Groucho Marx
    Life - like rockets - has its ups and downs! (probably said by a few people before me)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruegon View Post
    I'm so tired of rod whip. Even on 18mm motors, I have seen too many issues with rod whip throwing off the trajectory.

    I've been using 1010 buttons on everything with at least 24mm MMTs and BT-55 or above. But 1010 buttons look wrong on such small rockets.

    I've seen buttons in Unistrut, 1515, 1010, Mini, and Micro. What tube size vs engine size would you recommend for each size? Obviously, Micro buttons on a BT-80 with an E9 would probably be a bad idea. But would you use Mini buttons on a PSII kit? Micro on a BT-60? I'm looking for a good rule of thumb.
    Flew my 2.6" Estes V-2 on a MakerBeam rail on Sunday. Used micro buttons from rail-buttons.com
    The black rail in picture with the V-2 is the MakerBeam, and also next to an 80/20 20mm rail in 2nd picture. The buttons pictured are micros and minis, next to a 1/8" launch lug!

    I've heard of HPR Rockets using micros, with steel screws used in place of the nylon screws. I'd have normally used minis for MPR but wanted to test the micros. The V-2 flew arrow straight, and it has smaller fins than normal -- I trimmed them to scale-size.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Trident; 9th March 2016 at 03:34 AM.
    Lee Reep
    NAR 55948, L2
    Build Queue: Upscale Orbital Transport, MPC Vostok
    Awaiting Paint/Detailing: Interceptor-E, Saturn 1B

  6. #6
    Join Date
    13th October 2014
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    To many people underestimate the Micro rail buttons and the Makerbeam rail, replace the nylon screw with a brass ones (as long as the buttons are solidly attached) and have no fear of FAR101 Class1 rockets of 3.3lbs and G motors (even a few H motors). The 1500mm Makerbeam rail is actually stiffer than a 1/4" rod. For little LPR (most Estes, Centuri, etc) the Micro buttons are fine with the nylon screws. My
    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rharshberger View Post
    To many people underestimate the Micro rail buttons and the Makerbeam rail, replace the nylon screw with a brass ones (as long as the buttons are solidly attached) and have no fear of FAR101 Class1 rockets of 3.3lbs and G motors (even a few H motors). The 1500mm Makerbeam rail is actually stiffer than a 1/4" rod. For little LPR (most Estes, Centuri, etc) the Micro buttons are fine with the nylon screws. My
    Makerbeam fits nicely into the 1010 rail, so you can keep it from getting bent, plus makes it even MORE rigid.
    Also adds the convenience of having a 2 in 1 Rail.
    Plus 1 on using metal screws for Makerbeam.

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    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

  8. #8
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    I would say it seems obvious not to use nylon screws when they are directly in the path of an ejection charge. In this I'm referring to a rocket which may use tumble recovery and the motor ejects at burnout. Such as a quark or 220 swift.

    I would imagine that wadding would protect them decently as it does a parachute. I just ordered mini and micro buttons. I'll be getting rails soon. Short of something like a mosquito, I imagine I'll be going to rails across the board from now on.

    Are there any concerns about excessive wear on the mini and micro buttons? Anyone had issues with breakage?

    I'll be bringing my mini and micro rails to NSL in case anyone needs to use them. I'm planning to have a couple of rockets ready to use them.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  9. #9
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    13th October 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruegon View Post
    I would say it seems obvious not to use nylon screws when they are directly in the path of an ejection charge. In this I'm referring to a rocket which may use tumble recovery and the motor ejects at burnout. Such as a quark or 220 swift.

    I would imagine that wadding would protect them decently as it does a parachute. I just ordered mini and micro buttons. I'll be getting rails soon. Short of something like a mosquito, I imagine I'll be going to rails across the board from now on.

    Are there any concerns about excessive wear on the mini and micro buttons? Anyone had issues with breakage?

    I'll be bringing my mini and micro rails to NSL in case anyone needs to use them. I'm planning to have a couple of rockets ready to use them.
    The only "issue" I have seen with the micro buttons is they sometimes feel "sticky" on the rail, a little trimming to get a shorter center section or switching to a brass screw (either 2-56 or a M2.5 iirc) seems to cure the problem.

    I have made some quick rail guide adapters by mounting 2 micro buttons on 2-3" strip of basswood (about 3/16" square), rounding the back to match the curvature of a rocket airframe. Then using blue masking tape to mount them to my LPR rockets (mainly it was for testing the buttons purposes), but now I keep a few in my range box as loaners or for older rockets in my fleet that I don't want to retro-fit right now.
    Rich

    NAR# 99154

    L3-4x upscale Estes Cherokee-D- AT M1297W 5/28/2016 http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthr...r-rharshberger

    TriCities Rocketeers NAR section# 736 http://www.tricitiesrocketeers.org/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    5th December 2013
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    MD
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    I out 1010 buttons on my PSII builder kits.
    John S. ---- NAR #96911 ---- TRA #15253 ---- MDRA #067 ---- BARC #028
    L1, 3/15/14: Aerotech Sumo, CTI H133BS
    L2, 6/21/14: Giant Leap Vertical Assault, CTI J240RL
    L3, 3/12/16: MAC Performance Radial Flyer, CTI M1101WH
    Altitude: 13,028', L3 flight; Speed: Mach ???, L3 flight

  11. #11
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
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    Colorado
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    Kruegon,

    I'd find and order the MakerBeam rails soon. I bought the 900 mm two-pack on Amazon, and they are out of stock. I just checked and the 1500 mm rails are out of stock also. I'm a little worried because there is a note that says "We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock". I was planning to get the 1500 mm rails next.

    Maybe there is a run on the rails in the model rocketry community, but I have been trying to find MakerBeam's T-slot nots in the USA and nobody has them. I am concerned that vendors just are not interested in carrying the MakerBeam product line. MakerBeam in Europe will ship to USA but shipping for a small bag of 25 T-slot nuts was going to cost 35 Euros, more than the cost of the nuts.
    Lee Reep
    NAR 55948, L2
    Build Queue: Upscale Orbital Transport, MPC Vostok
    Awaiting Paint/Detailing: Interceptor-E, Saturn 1B

  12. #12
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    21st May 2014
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    Gardendale, AL
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    Crap I was going to order the Makerbeam 1500mm Friday morning. Now I have wasted money on buttons I can't use. I'm beginning to think that perhaps the manufacturer could have a second market in selling the rails too. They do it for the mini buttons.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  13. #13
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    21st May 2014
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    Gardendale, AL
    Posts
    1,831
    I wonder if it'd be worth it to buy a stack of rails from Europe and list them for sale on here.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  14. #14
    Join Date
    25th January 2009
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    Glennville, GA
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    I would buy one.
    -----------------------
    Chuck Haislip
    NAR/Tripoli Level 3
    Retired Prefect ICBM - TRA #60

    Level 1 - LOC Minie Magg; Level 2 - PR Broken Arrow;
    Level 3 - 10 inch Nike Smoke
    2015 Ns for Year: 1315 Newtons
    My rockets usually fly naked. If they survive, they earn their paint.

    Come fly with ROSCo or ICBM in Camden SC => http://rocketrysouthcarolina.org

  15. #15
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    21st May 2014
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    I'm going to look at ordering 10 to 20 of them and see how they sell. Won't be Amazon cheap but should stay affordable.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruegon View Post
    I'm going to look at ordering 10 to 20 of them and see how they sell. Won't be Amazon cheap but should stay affordable.

    Just make sure you pack them nice before shipping them, and DO NOT SEND THEM VIA UPS!!!!


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    Thankfully, I was able to barter with a member here to get me a not-bent 1500mm Makerbeam Rail.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

  17. #17
    Join Date
    9th July 2014
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    Phoenix, AZ
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    I use 1010 rail buttons on anything with a 29mm mount or larger. I went to a 1515 rail and buttons when I hit 50 pounds and 11 feet.

  18. #18
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    18th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    I bought the 900 mm two-pack on Amazon, and they are out of stock. I just checked and the 1500 mm rails are out of stock also. I'm a little worried because there is a note that says "We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock". I was planning to get the 1500 mm rails next.
    Arrgh..... I want to order some 1500 length also (I do not have any, waited too long).

    So, OK, I might be able to make use out of 15mm x 15mm rail instead. Such as sold by Misumi.

    http://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail...sults2fulltext

    Their price for 1500mm rails alone is REALLY good ($7.80 each), but the COD Shipping would be something like $35 or more, so about $50 or more for two (Actually the blind shipping really concerns me, if they put them into an extra-large box than needed, say 72" rather than 60", the shipping could be way worse. And if I was going to pay for a 72" box that was way longer than needed.... I'd order the rails about 70" long since they are cut-to-order and allow an inch of padding at each end).

    Anyone know of a lower combined cost source for these or any similar 15 x 15mm rail?

    I Wish Grainger had them, I could pick them up locally and not have to pay for shipping, but it seems they do not have any rail smaller than 1" x 1"

    I'd also consider 20 x 20mm rail. Sources for those? Please give links if you can.

    - George Gassaway
    Last edited by georgegassaway; 10th March 2016 at 11:30 AM.

    Contest flying, Sport flying, it's all good.....
    2016 Bike Mileage total: 1843 miles. 5 Miles a day for the year!

  19. #19
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    21st May 2014
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    Gardendale, AL
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    Well at least I can still get a mini rail. It's a start.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  20. #20
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    18th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgegassaway View Post
    Arrgh..... I want to order some 1500 length also (I do not have any, waited too long).

    So, OK, I might be able to make use out of 15mm x 15mm rail instead. Such as sold by Misumi.

    http://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail...sults2fulltext

    Their price for 1500mm rails alone is REALLY good ($7.80 each), but the COD Shipping would be something like $35 or more, so about $50 or more for two (Actually the blind shipping really concerns me, if they put them into an extra-large box than needed, say 72" rather than 60", the shipping could be way worse. And if I was going to pay for a 72" box that was way longer than needed.... I'd order the rails about 70" long since they are cut-to-order and allow an inch of padding at each end).

    Anyone know of a lower combined cost source for these or any similar 15 x 15mm rail?

    I Wish Grainger had them, I could pick them up locally and not have to pay for shipping, but it seems they do not have any rail smaller than 1" x 1"

    I'd also consider 20 x 20mm rail. Sources for those? Please give links if you can.

    - George Gassaway
    I heard from Randy Milliken at rail-buttons.com, and he says he has talked to MakerBeam, and more rails are getting manufactured. They come from Europe, so Randy said Amazon may not have them for a month. Randy sells micro buttons for the MakerBeam, and he sells the 80/20 20mm rail (4 foot length) and the mini buttons for them. The rail was under $20 with shipping.

    I posted this a few posts previously, but here is picture of mini and micro buttons, and the rails for them. That tube is a 1/8" launch lug!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Trident; 11th March 2016 at 05:03 AM.
    Lee Reep
    NAR 55948, L2
    Build Queue: Upscale Orbital Transport, MPC Vostok
    Awaiting Paint/Detailing: Interceptor-E, Saturn 1B

  21. #21
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    25th January 2009
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    That is good news. I have a couple different sizes.
    -----------------------
    Chuck Haislip
    NAR/Tripoli Level 3
    Retired Prefect ICBM - TRA #60

    Level 1 - LOC Minie Magg; Level 2 - PR Broken Arrow;
    Level 3 - 10 inch Nike Smoke
    2015 Ns for Year: 1315 Newtons
    My rockets usually fly naked. If they survive, they earn their paint.

    Come fly with ROSCo or ICBM in Camden SC => http://rocketrysouthcarolina.org

  22. #22
    Join Date
    5th June 2010
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    Danville, CA
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    If you fly with a club, consider putting both buttons and lugs on a rocket so that you can fly on multiple pads. Also, consider using a larger lug so that it works on larger rods was well as smaller rods.

  23. #23
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    Check out "Nanobeam"!

    http://www.amazon.com/NanoBeam-Ultim...+bar+extrusion


    Now I can really piss off you know who!!!

    Fiberglassed, TTW, rail-launched Micromaxx here we come!!!!



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    Last edited by TopRamen; 11th March 2016 at 09:40 PM.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

  24. #24
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    Rail and Rail Button Comparison

    Nanobeam will fit the micro buttons?
    Last edited by Kruegon; 12th March 2016 at 02:12 AM.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruegon View Post
    Nanobeam will fit the micro buttons?
    No!
    This is way smaller!
    Micromiester Size!!!!!

    It's his worst nightmare!!!!
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

  26. #26
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
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    Salem, MA
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    I never remember the hobby names, but all aluminum tee slot rail extrusions are international standard industrial aluminum framing extrusions.

    The 3 smallest sizes are metric: 10 mm x 10 mm square, 15 mm x 15 mm square, and 20 mm x 20 mm square.

    The standard 1010 rails is 1.0" x 1.0" square with a slot for a 1/4" screw. A metric equivalent is a 25 mm x 25 mm rail which uses a 6 mm screw. (A 1/4 screw will not fit 25 mm x 25 mm rail, but a 6 mm screw fits fine in a 1.0" x 1.0" rail.)

    The heavy duty 1515 rail is 1.5" x 1.5" square with a slot for a 5/16" screw.

    Bob

  27. #27
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    Well the Nanobeam is apparently smaller than the 10mm rail.

    10mm is the size of micro buttons. And we were just told they wouldn't fit.
    NAR #99604 L2
    L1 - 08/15/15 - Estes Partizon - Aerotech H128W - Birmingham, AL
    L2 - 02/04/17 - MadCow 4" PAC-3 - Aerotech J350W - Talladega, AL
    L3 - TBD

  28. #28
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    Nonobeam is smaller than a pencil.


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    http://www.amazon.com/NanoBeam-Pack-...7807008&sr=8-1
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

  29. #29
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    31st January 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopRamen View Post
    Check out "Nanobeam"!

    http://www.amazon.com/NanoBeam-Ultim...+bar+extrusion


    Now I can really piss off you know who!!!

    Fiberglassed, TTW, rail-launched Micromaxx here we come!!!!



    Click image for larger version. 

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    I triple dog dare you
    Bill

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.
    John Wayne, The Shootist

    In the Hangar:
    A pile 'O' Fun

    On The Bench:
    Pieces 'O' Fun

  30. #30
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    25th January 2009
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    Heck,

    I can't wait to see the buttons for that. Darn bifocals.

    -----------------------
    Chuck Haislip
    NAR/Tripoli Level 3
    Retired Prefect ICBM - TRA #60

    Level 1 - LOC Minie Magg; Level 2 - PR Broken Arrow;
    Level 3 - 10 inch Nike Smoke
    2015 Ns for Year: 1315 Newtons
    My rockets usually fly naked. If they survive, they earn their paint.

    Come fly with ROSCo or ICBM in Camden SC => http://rocketrysouthcarolina.org

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