My NAR Level 3 Certification Package.

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It only takes one TAP to observe and sign off on the flight.

That's what I thought?!!! But he (second TAP) was taking exception.

Actually, I think the issue was that I didn't get him to sign the pre-flight data capture form (which requires multiple signatures). I tried a couple times to track him down at the launch and had provided him all the data and build diary beforehand, but didn't actually get to him before the flight.
 
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I did pre-approval by my TAPs. Now this was in 2009 and not sure how it is today, but frankly, I didn't want to take any chances and was more than happy to share my design with them.

My real issue came after the flight. One of the TAPs had not been informed that the flight was occurring and balked at signing the papers at first (although the other TAP not only was actively observing, he inspected the rocket upon recovery). Luckily I had a video of the flight I could submit after the fact and the "doubting TAP" had in fact remembered the flight and signed off--"Whew!"

You should of had both TAP approval signatures prior to the cert flight or at least made sure both TAP were physically at the launch... Although, the TAP that allowed you to do your cert flight without verifying the signature or physical presence of the second TAP's , is the real blame for the confusion...
 
You should of had both TAP approval signatures prior to the cert flight or at least made sure both TAP were physically at the launch... Although, the TAP that allowed you to do your cert flight without verifying the signature or physical presence of the second TAP's , is the real blame for the confusion...

From the TRA website: Certification Flight – Level 3 Certification flight may take place at any insured launch. The TAP member must be present and witness the certification flight. The TAP member must witness the rocket ascend in a stable manner and descend in stabilized manner controlled by the recovery system.

Post-Flight Inspection – The rocket must be presented to the certifying member for inspection. If the rocket cannot be recovered, but can be inspected in place (power lines, tree, etc...) this is acceptable. The certifying member shall inspect the rocket for excessive damage. Excessive damage shall be considered damage to the point that if the flyer were handed another motor, the rocket could not be put on the pad and flown again safely. Damage caused by wind dragging will not cause a disqualification.

That is from: https://www.tripoli.org/Level3

The term TAP is in the singular and I was told that meant one of the two TAPs needs to witness and sign-off.

As far as confirming two TAPs approved the paperwork simple, email or phone call from one TAP to the other TAP. I believe it was setup this way because it was recognized that some fliers might be operating in isolation where
physical access to two TAPs at the same time is a hardship. Kurt
 
You should of had both TAP approval signatures prior to the cert flight or at least made sure both TAP were physically at the launch... Although, the TAP that allowed you to do your cert flight without verifying the signature or physical presence of the second TAP's , is the real blame for the confusion...

Both were at the launch. In fact, the "second" TAP was actually on the podium as LCO assistant when the rocket went up. I should have done more to secure the signatures. Although I had dialog with both TAPs for months, I didn't know what the "second" one looked like.
 
From the TRA website: Certification Flight – Level 3 Certification flight may take place at any insured launch. The TAP member must be present and witness the certification flight. The TAP member must witness the rocket ascend in a stable manner and descend in stabilized manner controlled by the recovery system.

Post-Flight Inspection – The rocket must be presented to the certifying member for inspection. If the rocket cannot be recovered, but can be inspected in place (power lines, tree, etc...) this is acceptable. The certifying member shall inspect the rocket for excessive damage. Excessive damage shall be considered damage to the point that if the flyer were handed another motor, the rocket could not be put on the pad and flown again safely. Damage caused by wind dragging will not cause a disqualification.

That is from: https://www.tripoli.org/Level3

The term TAP is in the singular and I was told that meant one of the two TAPs needs to witness and sign-off.

As far as confirming two TAPs approved the paperwork simple, email or phone call from one TAP to the other TAP. I believe it was setup this way because it was recognized that some fliers might be operating in isolation where
physical access to two TAPs at the same time is a hardship. Kurt

Beings the TRA L3 Cert page is self explanatory, I'm not sure what your point is...
 
Both were at the launch. In fact, the "second" TAP was actually on the podium as LCO assistant when the rocket went up. I should have done more to secure the signatures. Although I had dialog with both TAPs for months, I didn't know what the "second" one looked like.

In any case, the TAP observing the cert flight should of caught the mistake prior to the cert fight...
 
Beings the TRA L3 Cert page is self explanatory, I'm not sure what your point is...

If I understand correctly I thought he struggled to get both TAP's to sign the flight confirmation paperwork?

Ok, I see, I reread it: "That's what I thought?!!! But he (second TAP) was taking exception.

Actually, I think the issue was that I didn't get him to sign the pre-flight data capture form (which requires multiple signatures). I tried a couple times to track him down at the launch and had provided him all the data and build diary beforehand, but didn't actually get to him before the flight.
Last edited by dixontj93060; Today at 02:01 PM."

It sounds like the paperwork wasn't completely "finalized" before flight. I thought all the pre-requisites were met. Sorry

Does this mean that two TAPS have to be present or can that pre-flight capture form be signed by a Tap in advance? I was under the impression that a proposed flight can be signed off in advanced by two Taps and then one of the two needs to be
present to be the witness at the launch attempt? Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. Kurt
 
If I understand correctly I thought he struggled to get both TAP's to sign the flight confirmation paperwork?

Ok, I see, I reread it: "That's what I thought?!!! But he (second TAP) was taking exception.

Actually, I think the issue was that I didn't get him to sign the pre-flight data capture form (which requires multiple signatures). I tried a couple times to track him down at the launch and had provided him all the data and build diary beforehand, but didn't actually get to him before the flight.
Last edited by dixontj93060; Today at 02:01 PM."

It sounds like the paperwork wasn't completely "finalized" before flight. I thought all the pre-requisites were met. Sorry

Bingo...

Does this mean that two TAPS have to be present or can that pre-flight capture form be signed by a Tap in advance? I was under the impression that a proposed flight can be signed off in advanced by two Taps and then one of the two needs to be
present to be the witness at the launch attempt? Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. Kurt

The two TAP individuals signing off on the project may or may not be present for the cert flight... If that is the case, any other TAP, at their discretion, may witness and sign off on the cert flight... BTW, it's the certification form that must be signed in three places, (two approval signatures and one witness signature), not the Data Capture Form... The Data Capture Form is for collecting a summary of the expected flight profile and the actual flight data, along with the names of the TAP members approving and witnessing...
 
Very nice, Russ. You worked so hard on that build that I got exhausted looking at it. :wink:

Can't wait to hear what happens!
 
The weather at 3 Oaks didn't give me the ceiling I wanted.
I was able to successfully launch / recover / cert my level three cert attempt on Sunday up in Muskegon at MMAR/SMASH.
It was a great day Sunday, sunny with a 5-10mph wind out of the NW away from the pond. It was the greatest flying day I have seen in Muskegon ever..
Still working on download videos/gps/pictures .. those will be a post some time. But here is a teaser big red bee gps.jpg
 
The weather at 3 Oaks didn't give me the ceiling I wanted.
I was able to successfully launch / recover / cert my level three cert attempt on Sunday up in Muskegon at MMAR/SMASH.
It was a great day Sunday, sunny with a 5-10mph wind out of the NW away from the pond. It was the greatest flying day I have seen in Muskegon ever..
Still working on download videos/gps/pictures .. those will be a post some time. But here is a teaser View attachment 285722

Way to go! We want details! Probably in a new thread....
 
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