High Power Certification Questions

[Aaronius31]

1)Today I traveled to a friend's friend's house and we didn't know what or how much we were getting but all of a sudden I am in possession of some high power(need certification for) rockets.

2)I can't describe them well since I don't know the names of the rockets but I will edit this post soon with the names of the engines/motors.

I am now in possession of (rockets):
-A 7-foot tall rocket with a diameter of 11 inches that I was told can launch 15,000ft-21,000feet that requires certification to launch.

Here is a picture of the one I am talking about that is 7ft.


-About 10-15 middle power-high power rockets ranging from 3ft-5ft in height. They can be seen here:


-About 20 hobby-shop sized rockets in a box

I am now in possession of (engines/motors):
-2 brick-sized engines that were in a box labeled "Explosive C", and they have orange warning labels all over it and it is metallic. This is what the label looks like:


-Boxes full of regular low power-middle power engines.

So to get to the questions now, I was wondering, Is it illegal for me to be in possession of the high powered 7ft tall rocket and the 2 "Explosive C" Engines?

Also if you were wondering how I acquired the stuff, I got it from a friend's church leader that had a ton of rocketry stuff from a friend that passed away that lived to shoot rockets.

I will get higher quality pictures of each high powered engine and all of the rockets tomorrow and post them.

One more pic for everyone:

[troj]

Your pictures aren't coming through; it looks like you can probably see them on your phone, but they're not available on here.

As far as the rockets go, assuming you're in the US, there is nothing required for you to own/possess them. However, for any organized TRA/NAR launch, or in the 30+ states that have adopted NFPA codes into their state laws, you must be certified to the appropriate level in Tripoli and/or NAR before you can fly them.

To certify, you first have to build your own rocket and fly it on a motor of the appropriate class for Level 1. That's an H or I motor. For Level 2, you need to build and fly a rocket on a J, K or L motor. Level 3 requires an M or larger.

Because you have to build your own rocket to certify on, you cannot use the ones you were given, for that purpose. After you're certified at the appropriate level, you can fly them to your heart's content.

As far as the motors go, they do ship as explosives per DOT regs, but they do not require a special permit to own/use (except in California).

If you can tell us what part of the country you're located in (nearby large city is sufficient) we can point you to a local club. Attending an event or two of theirs will provide you with a lot of valuable help.

-Kevin

[GRIFFIN]

Yes it is illegal for you to own all that stuff . You need to send it all to me right away!!!

[Aaronius31]

Within the hour I am posting new pics that will show up for you guys and higher quality.

If you can tell us what part of the country you're located in (nearby large city is sufficient) we can point you to a local club. Attending an event or two of theirs will provide you with a lot of valuable help.

Hey thanks so much for summarizing pretty much what everything is and what I would need to do to be certified. And actually the reason I got this stuff is because it was going to help with TARC,an NAR competition for 7th-12th graders ,which the link is here but I think my friend misread it and it was last year or something: http://www.nar.org/TAchallenge.html Does anyone know if it is happening in 2011? Thanks.

But I have looked on that site and will probably join the NAR since it is only $25 for me since I'm in the 16-20 range. I'm in Virginia and found a rocketry club in Richmond, VA that I can go to; it's only 45mins away.

Do you know if I would be able to somewhat donate it for them to launch if I have the right engines and parts, parachutes, etc.? Because I probably won't launch it for a couple years until I'm in and out of college and can get certified...

Thanks for the help

[Mikus]

Today I traveled to a friend's friend's house and we didn't know what or how much we were getting but all of a sudden I am in possession of some high power(need certification for) rockets.

I believe I hate you.

Just kidding... mostly.

But back to serious, I'm curious what is in the box. And I notice you say you are 16-20; I believe some of that may be technically illegal for you to possess if you are under 18 years of age. There may be laws in your state that prohibit possession at a certain age as well.

Fortunately those belong to one of your parents, right?

Anybody else? Shread? I'm sure you have an opinion.

[Handeman]

But I have looked on that site and will probably join the NAR since it is only $25 for me since I'm in the 16-20 range. I'm in Virginia and found a rocketry club in Richmond, VA that I can go to; it's only 45mins away.

The Richmond Club, The Viking Rocket Society is a great club. I went to many great launches at Pole Green Park. Unfortunately a couple of years ago someone used the phone instead of the web to try to find out where they launched at and called the county Park & Rec dept. That lead to them getting banned from using any county parks. I don't believe they have found a new field yet.

You can check out SERVA in the Norfolk area.
NOVAAR in Northern Va.
The Tripoli Central Virgina #25 club launches from Nov. thru Apr. in Culpeper VA. That's my club and that's where some of the Viking members come to launch their HPR rockets.
There is also VAST near Staunton VA. in the Shenandoah valley. They to lost their launch site when the Augusta county board refused to approve their special use permit. They have been in a legal battle since then when they appealed the ruling. The next hearing is September 13th, 2010 in Staunton. My understanding is that they are looking at another field but that is still TBD, they really want to continue using the Croft farm. It's a great launch site with a good waiver.

[Aaronius31]

Hey thanks Handeman for the great club information.

And also I figured out there is a TARC 2011 competition.

Here are some pics of the stuff I have:


Middle Power-High Power Rockets I assume?:


The almighty Aerotech 54mm CLASS B HIGH POWER ROCKET MOTOR(which I have 2 of):


About 12 engines just a tad smaller than the 54mm one above:


A close up of one of those 12 engines:


With the picture above it says the engines were made in 1993, so are they still usable?

And here is the "Explosive C" I was talking about:

And if you guys want me to, I know this isn't the thread for it, but I have pictures of random engines and hobby shop-size rockets and pictures of about 30kits big and small that I can post here.

And don't worry guys I'm not launching any of these anytime soon.

But also this morning I had to move it all back to my friends house which is only about a mile away but I can still access the stuff if you have questions. We are going to organize the boxes worth of small to big engines we have and all these rocket-building materials we have. And I mean like I have high-power rocket kits and everything.

[hardinlw]

BATFE had at one time classified the propellent in the engines as and explosive. NAR/TRA sued claiming that such classification had not followed procedures, the judge agreed and ordered BATFE to provide data supporting that classification and they could not. The propellent was recently removed from the explosives list. The labelling on the box probably predates that decision. HOWEVER, the black powder used to eject the parachute and electric matches and some igniters remain on the explosives list. I still have an explosives permit to allow me to possess these items. If you have any loose black powder (i.e. not included in an engine reload kit) that is illegal without a permit. If you have electric matches (look up Daveyfire to see what they look like) those are also illegal without a permit.

[sylvie369]

Okay, you have the proverbial motherlode there. I strongly recommend that you keep asking questions here, and listen to the answers you get. You've got some valuable stuff, and there are people here (Troj, for one obvious example) who will give you very good advice about how to handle it.

Don't rush into anything (e.g., don't sell stuff to the first yahoo who comes along and offers you money), and be aware - as you already seem to be - that selling some of those motors may be illegal, and possessing them may be as well (if you're underage).

Motors made in 1993 may or may not still be usable. They may or may not still be certified for use - which throws a whole 'nother monkey wrench into the works as far as the motors go. Some of them may have been "iffy" even when new. There are old-timers here who have experience with those motors who can tell you which are which and which ones you shouldn't even try to use. Take your time and get good advice.

[Aaronius31]

Okay, you have the proverbial motherlode there. I strongly recommend that you keep asking questions here, and listen to the answers you get. You've got some valuable stuff, and there are people here (Troj, for one obvious example) who will give you very good advice about how to handle it.

Don't rush into anything (e.g., don't sell stuff to the first yahoo who comes along and offers you money), and be aware - as you already seem to be - that selling some of those motors may be illegal, and possessing them may be as well (if you're underage).

Motors made in 1993 may or may not still be usable. They may or may not still be certified for use - which throws a whole 'nother monkey wrench into the works as far as the motors go. Some of them may have been "iffy" even when new. There are old-timers here who have experience with those motors who can tell you which are which and which ones you shouldn't even try to use. Take your time and get good advice.

Ok thanks for the advice! Yah don't worry I am not selling it and we are keeping it in good storage away from heat and little kids haha.

Anyone at least want to estimate how much money of stuff I got in just what you have seen so far? Here are more pics of the boxes of engines I have:



Yah I think that's enough engines for a lifetime of watching rockets go up and down.

And as you can see some of the packs of engines are deteriorating and ashy and stuff so we will dispose of those properly.

So as you can see I have a buttload of composites and I will post pics of all the kits I have big and small.



And guys just to put it out there that I'm not dumb and won't sell stuff or totally dink around with all the awesome stuff I got. I may be a noob to middle-high powered rockets but I am not stupid.

But on the bright side I am hungry for any information and advice you guys put out to me. And also I have several handbooks about high powered rocketry that the guy gave me.

[troj]

You've got quite the collection, including Vulcan motors, which are no longer in production (and haven't been for a while). I don't think any of them are still certified, so you cannot fly them at a sanctioned (NAR or Tripoli) launch.

TARC will indeed be happening again next year; this past year was its...4th or 5th year, I forget which. It's a great event.

As far as the suitability of the rockets go, the kids on the team are required to build their own rocket -- you cannot give them a rocket, and have them use it for the competition. They can, however, use them as an opportunity to learn to fly and recover rockets, which is valuable experience, especially if the team members have little or no experience with rocketry.

I'd suggest you hook up with a local club that has a fair amount of high power experience, and have them look over what you've got. Since it's been in storage, you'll want someone to help you evaluate the condition of everything, and identify anything that needs repairs, etc. While it may look good externally, the innards are what matters.

-Kevin

[H_Rocket]

My goodness, you have some classic and now rare motors. The metal Aerotech HPR reload and the vulcan systems motors are quite desirable among collectors.

[cjl]

You've got quite the collection, including Vulcan motors, which are no longer in production (and haven't been for a while). I don't think any of them are still certified, so you cannot fly them at a sanctioned (NAR or Tripoli) launch.

You should be able to fly those at a TRA research launch.

[Aaronius31]

Do you guys think that if I have someone 18 or older with me and my friend that go to the Richmond Rocketry Club that we can't get in trouble being in possession of the Vulcan motors and the 54mm CLASS B HIGH POWER MOTORS?

Because I don't wanna get in trouble for having them in my possession.

Hey can anyone give me an estimate on how much all this is worth? And no I'm not going to sell it I just want to know. Thanks

Yah so I don't think I will get certified for another 4 years but I am definitely going to clean and repair the rockets until I get certified to actually use them. Yah and we will have proper storage for them like hanging them on racks from a ceiling and stuff.

Oh and btw I think I have even more huge motors I just need to sort through the stuff today and see what is usable or not...Some little parts and stuff that came off rockets or from wherever I might throw. I will definitely ask questions on if some stuff is worth keeping. Because I have about 30 kits or so...

[troj]

Do you guys think that if I have someone 18 or older with me and my friend that go to the Richmond Rocketry Club that we can't get in trouble being in possession of the Vulcan motors and the 54mm CLASS B HIGH POWER MOTORS?

You're fine. Just make sure your parents know what you have, so that they're fully aware. It's no different than ammunition and several other substances that kids cannot purchase, but their parents can, and they can legally use with their parents permission.

Hey can anyone give me an estimate on how much all this is worth? And no I'm not going to sell it I just want to know. Thanks

That would take a detailed inventory, and even then it would be an estimate, at best. Collectible stuff is always volatile, price-wise.

-Kevin

[Aaronius31]

Just curious, what is the motor designation printed on the end cap of the 54 mm Aerotech motor?

there was no cap on one of them so I took a picture of what was on the end of the inside:

AeroTech White Lightning I65-10W 5ECR-

It is probably not good to have that one open but it is in a bag in a box so it should be fine since there was no cap.

Also I went back over to my friends house and figured out that this is our collection of composite and regular Hobby Shop-Size Engines:


Also here are some I did not see before that are longer and thinner than the 54mms:

[JDcluster]

The venerable I 65 lonnnnng burn motor, even with the metal casing a collectible for sure. What do the Vulcan motors say on the labels?

It looks like you even scored a Loc Magnum & an Estes OoP fin alignment guide.

You got a very nice gift!

Can you tell us why you are spamming us with that AaAlizeeAmerica.crap ?


JD

[UPscaler]

Holy shiss!

and I65.



and vulcan motors

-drools on keyboard-

please please please tell me you don't plan to burn those. They are still useable, yes, but they are collectors items nowadays.

lucky man...

[cjl]

Holy shiss!

and I65.



and vulcan motors

-drools on keyboard-

please please please tell me you don't plan to burn those. They are still useable, yes, but they are collectors items nowadays.

lucky man...

Why not fly them? What good do they do anyone when they're sitting on a shelf? I'd fly them...

[Aaronius31]

The venerable I 65 lonnnnng burn motor, even with the metal casing a collectible for sure. What do the Vulcan motors say on the labels?

It looks like you even scored a Loc Magnum & an Estes OoP fin alignment guide.

Yah I also got a fin aligner for building rockets and a couple guides, and of course directions to each and every kit and engine.

So yah soon I will have an excel spreadsheet of each motor/engine with their model numbers and date they were made/issued. And we are currently doing inventory of each and every engine and engine packages(the ones with 3 small ones).

Also does anyone know if I am able to get proppelants and whatever I need to put in these engine casings? They are just empty tubes:


Here is the label that came on the box they were in and one of the labels on the casings:



OOOHHHHH!!!!! These are Reloadable Vulcans!!!! Are those pretty rare/valuable?

[hardinlw]

Why not fly them? What good do they do anyone when they're sitting on a shelf? I'd fly them...

Old engine may or may not be reliable, but the collectable ones are a reliable source of cash with which to buy current production engines.

[Aaronius31]

Old engine may or may not be reliable, but the collectable ones are a reliable source of cash with which to buy current production engines.

Nah I'm not going to sell anything.

Once I get level 2 or 3 certified then I am going to launch them.

And like Confucius once said,"If rocket no launch, then it no work."

So pretty much there is no harm in trying to launch them, they either work, or they don't, or they blow everyone in a 5mile radius into ash.


Also to get back on topic with HighPower Certifications, how much is the average cost of getting a Level 1,2, and/or 3 certifications? Is it like a sinkhole where all your money and time is sucked up just to get certified?

[JRThro]

I'd love to see pictures of the kits you have.

And yeah, what is that AlizeeAmerica.com in your signature?

[troj]

Also does anyone know if I am able to get proppelants and whatever I need to put in these engine casings? They are just empty tubes:

OOOHHHHH!!!!! These are Reloadable Vulcans!!!! Are those pretty rare/valuable?

Those are standard AeroTech RMS hardware; the same thing is still available, and still used regularly. You'll see references to Rouse-Tech hardware; it's the same thing.

AeroTech does indeed still make propellant for them.

-Kevin

[Aaronius31]

I'd love to see pictures of the kits you have.

And yeah, what is that AlizeeAmerica.com in your signature?

I think people would get mad at me for posting a vid on the forum cause I don't know how off-topic this forum can get without people getting mad, but Alizée is a French singer that has sold millions of albums and took Europe by storm in 2000. Here are 2 videos and AlizeeAmerica.com is the forum for her American fans, we are 2000 strong and quite active you should check it out. Here is just 2 vids and then we can PM about her if needed:

J'en Ai Marre by Alizée:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q69-GB6tyok

La Isla Bonita (cover of Madonna's La Isla Bonita) by Alizée:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZlgNj-rIxw

10,000,000views says most of it, and her eyes say the rest

Anyway that is the only off-topicness I will do for a while.

[MarkH]

The black one's with the gold lables are reloadable hardware . You buy the propellant separately and re-use the casings and screw on closures. Check out the Aerotech website for more info. Reloads are much cheaper in the long run than buying single use motors such as the Vulcans and the Aerotech 54 mm I65W that you have.

[sylvie369]

Also to get back on topic with HighPower Certifications, how much is the average cost of getting a Level 1,2, and/or 3 certifications? Is it like a sinkhole where all your money and time is sucked up just to get certified?

The cost of getting certified will be much lower for you because you already have what looks like a pretty complete set of reload casings there, in both 29 and 38mm sizes. Those "empty tubes" are pretty expensive. I see a 29/180 and a 29/240, and it looks like 38mm casings for H and I motors, so you're set for your L1 certification and a lot of flying after that. As someone else pointed out, you do have to build your own rocket for your certifications, so there'll be some expense, but you will have quite the fleet once you do.

If you're willing to be patient and learn a little at a time, you're going to find yourself very well set up to become a high power rocket flyer at much less cost to yourself than most of us paid.

I notice in the background of one of your rocket collection photos an orange and white Aerotech Initiator. If that rocket is complete and in flyable condition, it's an excellent choice for you to learn on. You can fly it on F motors that you are currently allowed to own and use, and later on G motors (I can't remember if you're allowed to use those, but your dad certainly could be the responsible party). You'd need to fly it at an official launch, with a club (DO NOT FLY THESE THINGS ON YOUR OWN! IT'S (almost certainly) ILLEGAL), but you'll learn a lot about rockets, motors, and recovery from that. It looks like you might already have suitable motors for it. The motors with the red plastic caps on 'em are single-use motors, and it looks like you have a selection of 29mm (the kind the Initiator takes) and smaller ones. If those motors are from the 90s they may be hard to light, but the local guys should be able to get you going.

By the way, flying with a group also means that you don't have to buy launch equipment, saving one other major expense. I'd say that almost everyone here flies with a club of some sort almost all of the time. I've never owned a launch pad capable of high power - there's just not much reason to bother with that.

Oh, to answer your question, since you already have the motor casings, the cost to you of getting a Level 1 cert should be well under $100. The motor (reload, for one of those casings you have) will cost you around $20, and the rest would be for the parts for your rocket. You could build a kit, or you could scratchbuild one. You've got a lot of "role models", as it were, to learn from. If money is tight, you can certainly use the nose cone and much of the recovery system (chute, shock cord, chute protectors) from an existing rocket in the one you build for your cert. I wouldn't be surprised if you could put the whole thing together for $30 (tubes, fins, motor mount, misc. parts), giving you a $50 L1 certification.

I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to certify, though - you've got plenty of mid-power stuff there to fly, I think, and again, you'll learn a lot from those flights.

[Aaronius31]

The black one's with the gold lables are reloadable hardware . You buy the propellant separately and re-use the casings and screw on closures. Check out the Aerotech website for more info. Reloads are much cheaper in the long run than buying single use motors such as the Vulcans and the Aerotech 54 mm I65W that you have.

That is very good to know thankyou

And here is a quick inventory of what I have:
-TWO 54mm Aerotech 54 mm I65W

-ELEVEN Vulcans

-THREE J250-12 Vulcans

-SEVEN Reloadable Composites
-FIVE Reloadables

-FOURTY Cobras(not all are in this pic(the one on top is trashed)):

-THIRTY composites(some are shown)


Sorry I've looked around and there are no obvious threads where you can post a collection of what you have....

[Aaronius31]

By the way, flying with a group also means that you don't have to buy launch equipment, saving one other major expense. I'd say that almost everyone here flies with a club of some sort almost all of the time. I've never owned a launch pad capable of high power - there's just not much reason to bother with that.

I can see I am very lucky to not have to buy the equipment to get a rocket into the sky. And thanks for the information on getting certified. And actually I do have High-Power Launch Equipmenthaha jk'n man. But yah it's on a quadpod that is about 3 feet off the ground...ok so maybe that can only hold rockets that are like 4 feet tall or something.....

[sylvie369]

I can see I am very lucky to not have to buy the equipment to get a rocket into the sky. And thanks for the information on getting certified. And actually I do have High-Power Launch Equipmenthaha jk'n man. But yah it's on a quadpod that is about 3 feet off the ground...ok so maybe that can only hold rockets that are like 4 feet tall or something.....

A Quadpod? Big metal thing, four legs, big pin with a ring on it that you pull out to tilt the top over?

Man. You really did hit the motherlode.