L1 cert questions? TRA

To attempt an L1 cert flight ;

A) can it be at a club launch? Or a "regional/event" launch? Either?
B) membership of local perfecture OR local and national TRA?
C) anything else about the rocket requirements?

Any other mandatory or important info about the rocket OR organization requirements?

Trying to quickly make up my mind if I want to do it at a regional launch comming up soon. Search gave a lot of broad Info. Have 3 weeks to build something 38mm powered.


Thanks

Rob702Martinez said:

To attempt an L1 cert flight ;

A) can it be at a club launch? Or a "regional/event" launch? Either?
B) membership of local perfecture OR local and national TRA?
C) anything else about the rocket requirements?

Any other mandatory or important info about the rocket OR organization requirements?

Trying to quickly make up my mind if I want to do it at a regional launch comming up soon. Search gave a lot of broad Info. Have 3 weeks to build something 38mm powered.


Thanks

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re A), it can be either as long as there is someone there to certify you. Odds are good the answer is either.
re B), national TRA is required. While technically you don't need to belong to your local, it's still a good idea.
re C), make sure you build it solidly. They'll wiggle your fins, check your rail buttons, etc. Not sure of your experience, but building a HPR is a little different than LPR/MPR.

Edit to add, there are a TON of 29mm HPR options. You aren't limited to a 38.

You can cert in your back yard as long as you have a proper witness.

Watch this video

[video=youtube;FbLVOOfxvig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbLVOOfxvig[/video]

It will answer all your questions, and will explain how using a 38mm motor is better than using a 29mm motor on a L1 cert.

since I am not a member of TRA I'm not 100% sure of A) but I believe it can be both (contact the club/prefect ahead of time to let them know your intent)
B) you need to be a member in good standing of TRA (national. which covers the local(club dues may be needed see A))
C) it must deploy a parachute, and fly on an H or I motor(pretty sure it can be other than a 38mm(AT has a 54mm I ).
Rex

Rex R said:

since I am not a member of TRA I'm not 100% sure of A) but I believe it can be both (contact the club/prefect ahead of time to let them know your intent)
B) you need to be a member in good standing of TRA (national. which covers the local(club dues may be needed see A))
C) it must deploy a parachute, and fly on an H or I motor(pretty sure it can be other than a 38mm(AT has a 54mm I ).

Rex

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The 54mm I is highly recomended, since the rocket goes much slower and puts less stress on the rocket. Looks much more spectacular as well. Sad thing is that most "L1 cert" rockets, (rockets that are good for L1 attempts) don't come with a 54mm motor tube, but you can always modify that. Use rail buttons, not launch lugs, and don't cert on a mid power rocket.

The biggest catch with Tripoli is having the right person to sign off on it. With NAR so many people can that we forget about the Tripoli rules. I had to do my L1 twice as a result.

Good thing I didn't listen to all the motor size advice or I wouldn't be certified yet :wink: 38mm might be a bit more attractive now with the shippable Aerotechs, but seriously unless you have access to an onsite vendor 29mm are a lot cheaper, and there a plenty of low-ish thrust options and "baby Hs" that won't teleport off the pad or put you in the stratosphere (unless you want to). The other upshot of 29mm is that there are low power options available in that size so you can get comfy with your rocket before you very on it, if you want to.

Really, get whatever makes sense to you and a rocket that you'll want to fly a lot. The point of getting certified is that you should know what you're doing - so seek advice, but trust the knowledge you already have (you know your desired flying habits better than anyone else).

Good luck!

Oberon said:

Good thing I didn't listen to all the motor size advice or I wouldn't be certified yet :wink: 38mm might be a bit more attractive now with the shippable Aerotechs, but seriously unless you have access to an onsite vendor 29mm are a lot cheaper, and there a plenty of low-ish thrust options and "baby Hs" that won't teleport off the pad or put you in the stratosphere (unless you want to). The other upshot of 29mm is that there are low power options available in that size so you can get comfy with your rocket before you very on it, if you want to.

Really, get whatever makes sense to you and a rocket that you'll want to fly a lot. The point of getting certified is that you should know what you're doing - so seek advice, but trust the knowledge you already have (you know your desired flying habits better than anyone else).

Good luck!

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+1 to all points! I did JL1 on a 29mm H with a (heavy) 38mm rocket and adapter. The extra thrust of 29mm can also be helpful in getting heavy rockets of the rail safely, although that varies widely based on specific motors.

Easiest certification around, stick an H128 reload into an Estes Leviathan or Aerotech anything.

watermelonman said:

Easiest certification around, stick an H128 reload into an Estes Leviathan or Aerotech anything.

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Definitely! A friend of mine did JL1 on an Estes Argent and CTI H133, a very similar motor to the H128. 1980' and a perfect flight.

Stick a I600 into a Estes Nike Smoke and watch it soar to the moon.

A) can it be at a club launch? Or a "regional/event" launch? Either?

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As has already been said it can be either or neither. It will likely be one or the other though as you will most likely need to have a waiver in place to fly high power. I think there are a couple of exceptions to that in a 29mm H motor but if you are insistent on flying 38mm then you do not have that option. It's easier to fly at a club or regional event where an active waiver is in place rather than applying for your own but you could do that as well.

B) membership of local perfecture OR local and national TRA?

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You have to be a current member of Tripoli Rocketry Association which is an international organization. a club may require membership to fly with them if it is independently insured but that is not a requirement of TRA for certification. You can show up at our field and certify as long as the prefect or TAP is present to witness the flight. In our particular case we ask that you let us know that you intend to attempt a cert flight as a courtesy and so we know what to expect.

C) anything else about the rocket requirements?

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I'm not sure I agree with Tim's assessment of 29mm vs. 38mm in the video because there are a lot of variables.

Get in touch with your local TRA Prefect and see what they recommend. Good luck.

JoeG said:

As has already been said it can be either or neither. It will likely be one or the other though as you will most likely need to have a waiver in place to fly high power. I think there are a couple of exceptions to that in a 29mm H motor but if you are insistent on flying 38mm then you do not have that option.

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More than a couple exceptions to that in 29mm, I'd say many. And in 38 there are options - the AT H242 comes in under the 125g limit for no waiver, as is the Loki H160.

But likely, to find someone to sign off, you'll need an organized launch of some sort. (but not necessarily a waiver)

As for motor size, Any H or I works. Don't let anyone tell you it's gotta be this size or that. This isn't the last rocket you're ever going to build

All great info! Is there a written test?

Last time at the club launch 2 of the officers said based on my builds/methods, motor assembly, recovery with CR and with out, 7 launches that day, all perfect...they said I could pass L1 no problem just need a bigger rocket and a bigger engine...as the biggest I have now is a Estes Ascender and Majestic 29mm and a bunch of 18/24mm rockets all running reloads....

January we hit a max of 2100 ft and 418mph...
Mid Febuary we hit a max of 2600 ft and 429 mph
Yesterday we hit a max of 3050 ft and 455 mph
All recovered with CR and with out, all on a Estes Majestic

The standing waiver is 7000 MSL or 4400 AGL and possible call in windows when needed.

Engine ordering isn't a problem as there is a vendor about 45 min away and one that comes out to big launches. I just think right now the L1 bug bit hard...the rocket fever flared back up in December and moved me into better builds and relaods and I would like to enjoy bigger rockets and builds with more engine options like 29/360 with adapters and 38/720 with adapters.
I have 18/20, 24/40, 29/40-120 and 38/360 cases as of now and a few other non-estes builds going.

I was planning on a Madcow 4" Patriot with nomex 12x 12 blanket, CR, extended MMT for ejection gas focusing, 36" TF chute, 38mm retainer, 38/360 with a H178DM-14...haven't run a Sim yet

Sorry for the long post just trying to wrap my mind around this... thoughts?

I wouldn't worry about extending the motor tube. reloads come with a good amount of BP. They'll be OK in the 4" patriot. Everything else looks good. The H178DM is a pretty sweet motor. (don't be confused, there are only 2 grains for the 3 grain case....it's OK, they're longer than normal )

Sounds like a pretty solid plan.

That relaod kit, does it come with a grain spacer that goes in the grain liner? Or do I need the aluminium grain adapter set? Also it will work on an older 38/360 case...right?

The information found at https://www.tripoli.org/Level1 is actually pretty helpful.

Rob702Martinez said:

That relaod kit, does it come with a grain spacer that goes in the grain liner? Or do I need the aluminium grain adapter set? Also it will work on an older 38/360 case...right?

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For the H178DM? No it's two propellant grains, that are the length of 3 "normal" grains. Fear not, it's for the 360 case.

Here's the motor drawing -
https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...-99f7-9e6924c6102e_38-360_h178dm-14a_assy.pdf

All great info! Is there a written test?

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No written test until you get go for your level 2 although you will likely be asked anywhere from a few to a lot of questions about your rocket from construction to expected altitude and even maybe asked about simulations depending on who is certifying you.

danielsadjadi said:

The 54mm I is highly recomended, since the rocket goes much slower and puts less stress on the rocket. Looks much more spectacular as well. Sad thing is that most "L1 cert" rockets, (rockets that are good for L1 attempts) don't come with a 54mm motor tube, but you can always modify that. Use rail buttons, not launch lugs, and don't cert on a mid power rocket.

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danielsadjadi said:

Stick a I600 into a Estes Nike Smoke and watch it soar to the moon.

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Daniel

Are you asking for a time out? I'll be happy to oblige.

Bob

Rob702Martinez said:

To attempt an L1 cert flight ;

A) can it be at a club launch? Or a "regional/event" launch? Either?
B) membership of local perfecture OR local and national TRA?
C) anything else about the rocket requirements?

Any other mandatory or important info about the rocket OR organization requirements?

Trying to quickly make up my mind if I want to do it at a regional launch comming up soon. Search gave a lot of broad Info. Have 3 weeks to build something 38mm powered.


Thanks

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These are the official TRA rules. https://www.tripoli.org/Level1

Bob

jimzcatz said:

You can cert in your back yard as long as you have a proper witness.

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That's a big backyard...... :wink: with no homes within 1500' of the launch pad.....:blush: and a waiver unless your L1 cert rocket meets FAA Class 1 specs.....

Bob

It happens.

Thanks for the info! Now I just have to order what I need and meet the deadline.

bobkrech said:

That's a big backyard...... :wink: with no homes within 1500' of the launch pad.....:blush: and a waiver unless your L1 cert rocket meets FAA Class 1 specs.....

Bob

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Beat me to it!

jimzcatz said:

It happens.

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People like to imply things are impossible because they think it should be another way. For a hobby that loves things that are outside of the box....there's a very odd attitude regarding cert flights.

There are a million ways to do it, and people should do it in whatever manner makes them happy.

Hell I e got at least 3-4 rockets that could do L1 under class one rules, and it's not an odd or difficult size to fly.

Maybe the best part of going for the L1 is all the learning that happens leading up to it. Not that the learning stops after that desired achievement. It's more likely, WOW, and then it's a greater appreciation of the effort and substantially more awareness of other goals ahead because there are that many more ways to go about the same basic idea - pointy end up, make fire, deploy chute(s), safe recovery, do it again. As a good friend likes to say - fly 'em, fix 'em and fly 'em again. Harder, faster, higher - it's all good!

danielsadjadi said:

Watch this video

[video=youtube;FbLVOOfxvig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbLVOOfxvig[/video]

It will answer all your questions, and will explain how using a 38mm motor is better than using a 29mm motor on a L1 cert.

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I'm not sure if 38mm is "better" than 29mm, particularly if you have no local vendors selling HPR motors. Of course, now with AT announcing hazmat free 38mm L1 motors, that changes things.

I did my L1 on a H128, which was a nice 800-900' flight on a ~4lb 4" rocket. I could have actually built it with a 54mm MMT, but didn't see the point as it gets plenty high on a J (3200' on my L2 flight) and is only single deploy.

byoungblood said:

I'm not sure if 38mm is "better" than 29mm, particularly if you have no local vendors selling HPR motors. Of course, now with AT announcing hazmat free 38mm L1 motors, that changes things.

I did my L1 on a H128, which was a nice 800-900' flight on a ~4lb 4" rocket. I could have actually built it with a 54mm MMT, but didn't see the point as it gets plenty high on a J (3200' on my L2 flight) and is only single deploy.

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Congrats on your L2! Which rocket did you use? Sounds like you found the double-cert sweet spot. I didn't so I'm looking into a new build for L2 (probably the 3" FG Frenzy I got at the Black Friday sale).

Yeah Tim's advice regarding 38 vs 29mm in that video is just, well, not correct. For a given impulse and propellant formula, yes the 38mm will usually have a lower thrust.

But in terms of actually available motors the advice doesn't really hold. For example, Aerotech has the H123 white lightning motor in the 38/240 case. But in the 29/180 case, they sell an H128 white lightning! If 5 extra newtons will shred you, you have bigger issues. And look at the second number in those cases - which is roughly total impulse. The 38mm version has 33% more impulse, meaning faster top speed (higher aerodynamic loads) and higher altitude (easier to lose, which Tim makes a good point of earlier in the same video). Same issue with CTI reloads - heck, their H87 and H90 loads for the 3 grain 29mm are just barely Hs and have about the lowest thrust you'd want (90 N is right at the 5:1 rule of thumb limit for a 4lb rocket)

One other thing, since you're looking at the H178 DM - make sure your launch allows sparkies! Some don't at all, and others may disallow sparkles if field conditions are windy or dry. It would stink to be all ready to go, but have to scrub your launch because the field is dry. You may want to consider a non-sparky for your cert, and then buy up all the dark matter you want once your L1 opens your wallet.