Full scale Sparrow HV-Arcus 2-stage sounding rocket

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DSCN5732.jpg DSCN5774.jpg DSCN5765.jpg Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 9.41.15 PM.png Update:

Sustainer finished.

One with 29mm motor mount. Back-up with 38mm motor. [minimum diameter] These both were built to allow for wider variety of motor combos to attain out target spin rate.
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Careful viewing and you can see the 1 degree cant/offset of fins.

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Telemega used to determine spin rate.
Small package that does it all. GPS allowed for an easy find of tiny rocket that hit 4,000ft.
Definitely going to need more of these altimeters!

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SUCCESS....spun like a top!

First flight of sustainer only. We used a set of Fly-a-way guides. These avoided the need for rail buttons and worked perfectly for this application. [spinning a rocket].
Would have been stuck, to find another solution without them.

First flight was on a 4-grain White Thunder [CTI H-255] [Thanks Wildman for these in this troubled time]
1 sec. burn time, 80 lbs. of thrust in a 2.2lb rocket. Gone in 60 nano-seconds, too fast for video.
It was a bullet with that thrust.
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Charlie pulled the data file and VOILA...we hit the nail on the head....12 revolutions per second! [720 rpm] and 4,000ft altitude. This was Saturday. Spun, flew straight & recovered close.
We are vilified!! Proof of concept for sustainer...check!
 
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Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 9.54.34 PM.png DSCN5781.jpg DSCN5782.jpg DSCN5784.jpg DSCN5771.jpg DSCN5777.jpg DSCN5779.jpg Screen Shot 2016-03-14 at 1.11.22 AM.jpg Sat. nite consisted of re-prepping the tiny bird.
This time with a 6 grain H-399 White Thunder. 40 more lbs. of thrust at 120 lbs. yielding a 54 to 1 thrust ratio.

Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 9.54.34 PM.png

More speed...more altitude...higher spin rate. This time 14 revolutions/second or 840 rpm. & 6,000 ft altitude.
Home run! 2nd Validation flight, proven results.

This and no booster, should do better when sitting on top of the booster. [That's next, 2-grain 54mm WT-staging to a 5grain 29 long burn mellow] Hoping for same or close spin rate when flow in 2-stage configuration.

The set up:
since only one altimeter was used, 2 matches per charge [0.5 grams] was used. As mentioned Telemega combo used.
Fincan contained 25ft.- 1/8in. Kevlar.
8in. thin wall X-chute & tiny Nomex/Kevlar protector. I had to roll chute in it at an angle, like a cigar to make it fit.
With the larger motor, there was barely room to get gear in. Folded in half again and stuck on top of motor.

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Wood dowel used to stuff the 25ft shock cord between motor & airframe. Time-consuming & tedious going, not much room at all , 1/8in dowel just fit in space to push.
No room for Marshall tracker [just in case] in usual spot taped to shock cord, so that went on back side of altimeter sled with antenna folded in loop.

NC had 5oz of lead in it to bring up to scale weight, with Kevlar loop imbedded in epoxy/lead-dust mixture for recovery attachment. We put main in NC.
6in kevlar protector.....20in flare chute....15ft 1/8 in. Kevlar cord. Took several attempts before "finding" the packing method that worked. All cordage was "ribbon folded" then placed along side the Kevlar/chute package & slid into position. 1 shear-pin 2-256 to hold NC in place. [very snug fit, no need for 2]

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Finally a bit of thinking outside the box for motor retention.
Measure MM tube, 6.5 inches long. Mark that on motor. Wrap several layers of tape around case at that point.
Load reload into case. [no rear closure YET]
slide motor in from front of airframe, drop into position, THEN screw rear closure on.
Motor now captured between MM tube and can't go anywhere.....with no need for fancy retention or friction fit.
Safe ...bulletproof.. simple motor retention.

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Finally a screen shot of our head-end motor ignition.
That's a normal forward closure with the ignition pellet/device, fitting in standard delay-well.
Glow plug in threaded hole to ignite upon command from altimeter.
Mounted up-side down for testing.

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We are EXTREMELY satisfied with last weekends test results. They could not have been better. EVERYTHING worked as tested/designed & planned for in the scope of work. Even though this is a small 1/3 scale unit....months of planning & research, custom fitting/machining, & building went into this.:smile:

Next , full up stack, both stages & our head end staging technique.

Charlie? any data to share? comments.
 
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Jim, very cool. Did I send you my sim results? It was a while ago hence the question.
 
I love the idea for motor retention! That's such a simple solution for any non-MD rocket with a long motor casing.
 
Question though the answer may have been already posted: Is the sustainer going to be pinned/secured to the booster in some way? Reason I ask is there a possibility the sustainer could spin around on the coupler on the booster if the inherent spin rates of
each one are different? Kurt Savegnago
 
Question though the answer may have been already posted: Is the sustainer going to be pinned/secured to the booster in some way? Reason I ask is there a possibility the sustainer could spin around on the coupler on the booster if the inherent spin rates of
each one are different? Kurt Savegnago

Please read the first page. Literally...... 2/3's of the posts are regarding this. Too lengthly to repeat.:wink:
 
Finally a bit of thinking outside the box for motor retention.
Measure MM tube, 6.5 inches long. Mark that on motor. Wrap several layers of tape around case at that point.
Load reload into case. [no rear closure YET]
slide motor in from front of airframe, drop into position, THEN screw rear closure on.
Motor now captured between MM tube and can't go anywhere.....with no need for fancy retention or friction fit.
Safe ...bulletproof.. simple motor retention.

Genius.
 
Please read the first page. Literally...... 2/3's of the posts are regarding this. Too lengthly to repeat.:wink:

Ok,

Yeah I see the comments about dissimilar spin rates but can't pick out what was settled upon. It looks like you're shooting for the booster and sustainer to inherently spin at the same rate when up to speed. That would do it. Kurt
 
Jim, very cool. Did I send you my sim results? It was a while ago hence the question.

No you did not. I think you were having problem getting a good P-8000 thrust curve, last time we talked. Find/make one?


Damn... Yeah that's a very good idea for motor retention...

agreed! Adding this to my bag of tricks for future builds!

Thanks guys.....sometimes the simplest solution is the best!:wink:
 
Ok,

Yeah I see the comments about dissimilar spin rates but can't pick out what was settled upon. It looks like you're shooting for the booster and sustainer to inherently spin at the same rate when up to speed. That would do it. Kurt

1 Degree cant.

Actually after the test:
Looks like it will be a timing/altitude/velocity resolution. Trying to match motors so by time the booster burns out and staging begins, we are at proper vel/speed for full bore spinning to happen with sustainer. There may be a slow roll rate with both coupled, before staging......we'll see.
I have found no one who has done this, to discuss with, sooo looks like we are breaking ground with our testing/results.
 
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CJ I gotta give it to ya,,,
that really was a fantastic idea on the motor retention...
Any slicker N that we'd be workin with black magic,,, lol...

Teddy
 
First congrats on everything up till now and good luck on the full stack shot! What a cool project!
 
Jim awesome builds so far. I'm sorry if I missed or overlooked it , but what motor are you using to the upper stage? Just as a random question , what is the weight of the P8000 ?

Eric
 
Screen Shot 2016-05-20 at 7.18.27 PM.png
Jim awesome builds so far. I'm sorry if I missed or overlooked it , but what motor are you using to the upper stage? Just as a random question , what is the weight of the P8000 ?

Eric

The P-8000 is quite a compact single use motor, only 29in long, as you know, most amateur P's can be 6-8ft. long& 6in -8in.diameter being most common. Total weight with fuel is less than most P empty hardware. approx. 79lbs
Perfect for a Sparrow booster.

................................................................
Motor details:

Manufacturer designation 53883P8099
Total impulse 53,883 Ns
Average thrust 8099 N
Max thrust ~2200 lb.f
Burn time 6.9 s
Specific impulse 232 s
Dimensions 28.4” (long) x 8.5” (diameter)
Full weight 79.4 lbs
Propellant weight 52.3 lbs
Storage temperature -55 to +85 degC
Operational temperature -40 to +70 degC

Regards,
Jeroen Louwers
...........................................................................

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Just before the accident Dr J. discussed making a special 98 6xl Mellow optimized for our flight. Grains were already cast. This would have been perfect for our full scale version. Obviously that is in limbo for now.

We will deal with that choice when the time comes......it will be some type of 98 long burn[largest available] that will fit the needed profile. Since Staging should occur around 20-25,000 ft. having the nozzle optimized for that would be a huge +. The sustainer will be a full scale HV Arcus 4.5in diameter

As of now, we will forge ahead with the smaller versions, that decision will be made after more testing is done & we have a better idea of functionality.
Realistically 2018 is the target date for flight and a lot can happen between now & then.:smile:
 
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Finally a bit of thinking outside the box for motor retention.
Measure MM tube, 6.5 inches long. Mark that on motor. Wrap several layers of tape around case at that point.
Load reload into case. [no rear closure YET]
slide motor in from front of airframe, drop into position, THEN screw rear closure on.
Motor now captured between MM tube and can't go anywhere.....with no need for fancy retention or friction fit.
Safe ...bulletproof.. simple motor retention.

Holee Guacamole, I missed that first time around! Another advantage would be one could "set" the overhang of the aft end so they could get a grip on the case and make sure the aft closure is tight. Kurt
 
Screen Shot 2016-06-10 at 5.39.09 PM.png Screen Shot 2016-06-10 at 5.39.40 PM.png DSCN5896.jpg Prepping the 1/3 scale today for launch tomorrow at Camden SC. This will be the full stack into the Troposphere...LOL
0 -32,000 ft.
This will be low end under 10,000.

Booster....54m 2-grain White thunder. J-430
Sustainer 29.. 4 grain Mellow


Screen Shot 2016-06-10 at 5.39.09 PM.png Screen Shot 2016-06-10 at 5.39.40 PM.png

We also plan on test flight at Argonia for fun.......exp Altitude 19,000 [4-grain 54 to 6grain 29mm]

I have a special chute that is designed as a "brake" in case we get near a waiver limit......LOL


Gary/Topflight made this years ago for a "school bus" yellow rocket I had..ya know...the Stop signs that pop out from the side......Tim hates that color & Jason & I painted several rockets....he sent chute to me as a "gag" Same size as real stop sign and lettering on inside, so you can see it under desent

DSCN5896.jpg

Since the tiny Sparrow Hv-Arcus is all Red & White........why not.


More detailed pics and flight results later!
 
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Prepping the 1/3 scale today for launch tomorrow at Camden SC. This will be the full stack into the Troposphere...LOL
0 -32,000 ft.
This will be low end under 10,000.

Booster....54m 2-grain White thunder. J-430
Sustainer 29.. 4 grain Mellow


View attachment 293651 View attachment 293652

We also plan on test flight at Argonia for fun.......exp Altitude 19,000 [4-grain 54 to 6grain 29mm]

I have a special chute that is designed as a "brake" in case we get near a waiver limit......LOL


Gary/Topflight made this years ago for a "school bus" yellow rocket I had..ya know...the Stop signs that pop out from the side......Tim hates that color & Jason & I painted several rockets....he sent chute to me as a "gag" Same size as real stop sign and lettering on inside, so you can see it under desent

View attachment 293653

Since the tiny Sparrow Hv-Arcus is all Red & White........why not.


More detailed pics and flight results later!

Good luck with the flight and this whole fascinating project.

I make the ISP of the J430 to be 218s (0.384 x 9.8 = 3.763, 821 Ns / 3.763 = 218s), and the ISP of the H42 is stated in the graphic you posted as supplied as 179s. So looking back at the earlier discussion on fin canting, my question is - if the real Sparrow ARCAS stack had proportionally similar ISPs for the respective stages to your 1/3 scale, and since air resistance on the faster burn of the booster would be at more of a premium than on the sustainer, would this explain why the booster apparently had no canting of the fins whereas the sustainer does have canting? Or am I missing something..?
 
Your antenna design on the Telemega looks interesting.
Is this the stock antenna in a loop?
Can anybody more experienced in amateur radio explain how this can work?
My experience is that if i somehow get a folded antenna my range goes down a lot. That is why I started to use transparent tubes to extend the antenna in the payloadbay.
 
Good luck with the flight and this whole fascinating project.

..........since air resistance on the faster burn of the booster would be at more of a premium than on the sustainer, would this explain why the booster apparently had no canting of the fins whereas the sustainer does have canting? Or am I missing something..?

Pretty much hit the nail on the head! Flight report I'm about to give from Saturday's flight proved theory.

Your antenna design on the Telemega looks interesting.
Is this the stock antenna in a loop?
Can anybody more experienced in amateur radio explain how this can work?
My experience is that if i somehow get a folded antenna my range goes down a lot. That is why I started to use transparent tubes to extend the antenna in the payloadbay.

We have very limited space in the 1/3 av-bay [6 inches] no room above or below to let antenna hang out of bulk plate.
Previous testing showed good reception for over 2 miles in this configuration.
More than enough for our limited testing on this scale.
An external antenna will be implemented on the big one! [A must with an all metal sustainer, unless things change]
 
Screen Shot 2016-06-13 at 3.00.05 PM.jpg OI000010.jpg OI000012.jpg OI000013.jpg OI000014.jpg Screen Shot 2016-06-13 at 2.56.11 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2016-06-13 at 2.09.06 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2016-06-13 at 2.09.23 PM.jpg Success!!


Finally after 10 months of work. Validation, under boost the full stack had a slight positive roll of 1.4 rps, as soon as separation charge fires at 2.3 seconds the sustainer attains full spin of negative 12 rps. Fins are small enough not to have any effect on the whole stack. Due to fin cant the sustainer always shows negative roll rate.
Booster positive role attributed to angle/wind or slight misalignment of fin mounting.

360 degrees is one full revolution...sensor pegs at -2000 [5.5 revolutions] [this is where we must extrapolate data will Excel to determine actual from raw data points, since data is pretty much linear.]

Anyhow you can see the slight rise under boost to approximate 500 degrees, then at 2.3 seconds [separation] full spin pegs the sensor to 2000 negative.
At around 11.5 seconds , sustainer spin slows enough to register again slowing to 825 degrees [820/360=2.2 rps] this was due to high arc at apogee, the flight was not vertical. First 2 flights sustainer slowed down to 1.2-1.5 Rps, well with in design expectations.
As a matter of fact if this trend follows up-scaling, there is no need to de-spin [yo-yo] for apogee deploy.

Screen Shot 2016-06-13 at 3.00.05 PM.jpg

Some pics, everyone loves those. [ps cigarette is NOT lit!LOL]

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[Pics taken by Tom Knight]
Found a great site for calculating wind speed at various levels

https://www.windyty.com/?34.109,-80.549,15

Screen shot of 2 levels showing different directions...color of arrows shows speed variation.

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It has taken hours of sorting through the data.....more on the entire flight later.

Here is TeleMega file for those that can open it.

View attachment 2016-06-11-serial-3081-flight-0001 copy.eeprom
 
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DSCN5897.jpg DSCN5898.jpg DSCN5899.jpg DSCN5902.jpg Charlie's doing a 2 stage test mule which incorporates some features to be used in our larger versions. Hope to fly at Airfest this year....4in to 3.
A few shots showing what we're up to now...............

Found a great little screw switch, used in battle bots, will handle anything we can throw at it, tiny....arm screw is 2-256! [same size as shear-pins]. The delrin case has arm screw hole slightly undersize to "lock" screw in place.

Link, in case any of you are interested. More than one item will be powered up, via these.

https://www.fingertechrobotics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ft-mini-switch

The tubes are for apogee charges at high altitude, they thread into the BP. inside end will have a plug to hold e-match, everything neatly inside out of the way.

Small box is to hold G-Pro camera.
Plenty of room for Telemega....Tele-GPS...Missleworks RRC3 and RF tracker.

Being able to draw it up in Solid-works, then taking file over to Laser cutter and Wham....done!

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Those switches are super nice, but expensive!

Yeah... but when you got hundreds of hours building. Thousands of $ in motors/materials & thousands $, in ground support, whats a few bucks in a switch that seems bullet-proof.

I wouldn't use them for everyday flying, but for those few "extreme" flights....sure will make me sleep better!:wink:
 
Yeah... but when you got hundreds of hours building. Thousands of $ in motors/materials & thousands $, in ground support, whats a few bucks in a switch that seems bullet-proof.

I wouldn't use them for everyday flying, but for those few "extreme" flights....sure will make me sleep better!:wink:

Yep, makes sense.
 

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