Full scale Sparrow HV-Arcus 2-stage sounding rocket

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blackjack2564

Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
Joined
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Savannah Ga
Screen Shot 2015-09-10 at 9.34.59 PM copy.jpg DSCN5573.jpg DSCN5575.jpg DSCN5576.jpg DSCN5577.jpg DSCN5583.jpg DSCN5610.jpg DSCN5623.jpg image001.jpg It's begun, a long road to a hopeful conclusion.
No name yet for project.
My lifelong dream in rocketry. Documentation & building begins today after 4 months [and many more] to come of serious research.

Me [CJ] C [Charlie Ogino of Carolina Composites] + J's [Jim Amos of Missleworks] embarking on the long journey to the "thin air" together.

The Trilogy will unfold as time allows, but first the 1/3 scale of this. [1st chapter of trilogy]

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54mm motor to 29mm motor
Carbon airframe: uni pre-preg & overlay 1 wrap cloth. 75mm. [which will get PAINT...LOL]
1/8 G-10 plate fins with 7 degree bevel
Aluminum I/S 75mm to 38mm.
True filament wound 38mm tube [sustainer] with 29mm motor mount

All parts manufactured by Carolina Composites [with NC & sustainer airframe exception.]
Electronics by MissleWorks ........ reason for new GPS/Rtx...LOL
The sustainer to be spin-stabilized.


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The "real" motor for full scale.... to a 6xl N longburn [to be determined]
Tim was correct expected altitude upper end of Mesosphere... [98,000 to 164,000] Of course our take to do this is "spin-stabilize'' reduce splash dow area.... reduce horizontal/gravity turn. If we're lucky after all the homework, target is 140-150,000. Another 6 months of work have passed, we see it very do-able.

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And so it begins.............
 
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When a post alludes to terms like mesosphere and ionosphere, you know it's gotta be COOL!
 
This thread is going to be SO much fun.

Thanks Jim for sharing this with us (lucky TRF folk), and taking us along for some of the ride.

s6
 
Jim, is this the rocket you, David Reese, and I were discussing at MWP? The one you were going to send me the sim file for as you were having an issue believing the numbers you were seeing? Still never saw the file.
 
Jim, if this is your lifelong goal in rocketry, are you going to retire after this? :wink:

Seriously, though, that looks awesome, and I bet it will be a real bonding experience (pun intended) for you and your buddies.
 
Attention granted! :) Really like the looks of where this is going! Hey, a giant juice jug! Rock on, CJ!

-Eric-
 
Nice one, what method will you use to induce spin?

Canted fins on sustainer.


Jim, is this the rocket you, David Reese, and I were discussing at MWP? The one you were going to send me the sim file for as you were having an issue believing the numbers you were seeing? Still never saw the file.

Yes. Those numbers are totally off the chart, can't be right.
My apologies...Totally forgot.. I'll get on that.
The P data is in RasA is OK...I don't run that on my Mac. Wanted to verify/compare with OR .
And the P thrust curve file we used on both OR & RS is corrupted. [from rocket reviews]
Yes we need your simming skills "master Yoda" to verify data sets & a good file for the P motor so I can play.
The boys with Ras A are happy,Guess I'm a non Believer.

MMMM
 
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Jim, count me in. I have the P8000 file as I created the first rasp file for it when you and Tim did the Mega.

I ran it in OR with an O8000 to a CTI 98 mm N. Was about 17000 Meters agl. That was in no way optimized for ignition delay of second stage.

I shot an email with a few questions.

I admit I have no idea how to simulate a spin stabilized rocket. Are you sure you want to do it- will cost you altitude?

I am going out of town so I will not have time until middle of next week to look further.
 
Canted fins on sustainer.

Won't that mean that the sustainer fins will be fighting the booster fins (booster fins will win being bigger)? As the sustainer fins will be forced through the air at an angle they will leave a turbulent wake down the side of the body and onto the booster fins. I would have thought it would be better to have the booster fins canted as well or perhaps incorporate a bearing into the interstage coupler to allow the sustainer to spin relative to booster (not sure about practicalities of this or aero affects).
 
I admit I have no idea how to simulate a spin stabilized rocket. Are you sure you want to do it- will cost you altitude?

My understanding is that if you are going really high then you need some sort of stabilization other than just fins otherwise your rocket will tumble which will cost you plenty of altitude. Canted fins will cost you initially, but once the rocket is spun up to speed the fins see a zero angle of attack so overall your losses are not too bad.
 
It flies off a 15ft launch rail.
Common practice at the time, was pulling various surplus motors from inventory and using various combinations of already tested meteorological rockets as sustainers, with these proven military boosters to reach higher targeted altitudes.

Drawings don't show any cant on booster,only sustainer.

Been researching this for months,nothing we can find indicates otherwise, hence the 1/3 scale version to see how this will work, before going any further.

If anyone can supply data otherwise, it will definitely be given due diligence. Not saying there isn't any, just not found it.

This project is not just being thrown together, there are many men in the group who have donated services from highly skilled machinists to various engineers [structural,materials,aero-space,avionics,telemetry] & college professors with real world experience in number crunching, directly related to what we are attempting.
Many sub-components ...1 offs need building and testing. These may or may not have been done before, at least they will be documented here for future viewing.
There is no other way this could be accomplished, with-out all their help.

Looking at a time frame of 2-3 yrs to finalize everything. I'm sure along the way, many assumptions made now, will change with further documentation, advice from professionals, & testing of smaller scale models. What will make this project different than most, is knowing ones limitations and listening to the advice of team members who have these needed skills to make changes that will further success!
It may turn out to be another bird entirely before the end of the journey, only time & research will tell.
At the least, we will come away from this with a serious education in theory & flight of all the detailed aspects of designing/building a sounding rocket.
Scope of work & outline of what's needed to accomplish all this is being put together. That alone is HUGE.
This thread will document our journey, more for a record of our work, than to reveal every detail involved.

We just hope you enjoy riding along as witnesses to our long journey and final result.

As a foot note we did some testing of our head-end ignition [using glow plug] last few days.....total success. But already changes made from the original done weeks ago & I'm sure many more changes before it scales correctly to the full scale version. From Pyrodex to BKNO3 & this will entail calculations for sizing to various motor configurations. No "well about 2 grams should do it". I have the research papers and formulas to size the starter to motors. For now just ecstatic that it functions properly, AND with repeatable results.[sigh...]
 
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Looking at a time frame of 2-3 yrs to finalize everything. I'm sure along the way, many assumptions made now, will change with further documentation, advice from professionals, & testing of smaller scale...

I think you need a Gantt chart. ;)
 
Way too cool Jim,,,
I will be following this thread
and I can't wait to see this bird fly fer sure...

Teddy
 
ROTW says both stages have canted fins and the rotation is 8-15 r/s.
 
CJ, your post is broke on my end. Not sure what it is. I'll try to post tomorrow.
 
We just hope you enjoy riding along as witnesses to our long journey and final result.

As a foot note we did some testing of our head-end ignition [using glow plug] last few days.....total success.

If I'm lucky enough, maybe I'll see pieces and parts of it when you come back up to Bong?

Do you have any idea where you will be testing the 1/3 scale? I presume Bong would not be anywhere near the top of your list. Too many hungry trees and...swamp :/

About the glow plugs? The first thing that came to mind are the ones they use in RC Nitro motors. Second thing was a diesel glow plug. Can you elaborate?
 
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CJ. No mention of angle but it has to be slight based on the rps. Maybe the references will help if you haven't already checked them out.
 
About the glow plugs? The first thing that came to mind are the ones they use in RC Nitro motors. Second thing was a diesel glow plug. Can you elaborate?

Although relatively expensive ( $20 / pop ), has anyone heard of trying a silicon nitride igniter in a rocketry context?
 
If I'm lucky enough, maybe I'll see pieces and parts of it when you come back up to Bong?
Doubtful
Do you have any idea where you will be testing the 1/3 scale? I presume Bong would not be anywhere near the top of your list. Too many hungry trees and...swamp :/
Any where I can fly where waiver permits & recovery cylinder is open/lack of trees...road trips look eminent.
About the glow plugs? The first thing that came to mind are the ones they use in RC Nitro motors. Second thing was a diesel glow plug. Can you elaborate?

RC type,at this point no further details for now.

CJ. No mention of angle but it has to be slight based on the rps. Maybe the references will help if you haven't already checked them out.

Major issue, is conflicting data from various references. I thank you what you supplied, every bit helps. Yes we have several of those references.

Our drawings show no cant on Sparrow motor.
Since these where pulled out of inventory, and in original Air-air design use there was none [fin cant], must go forward with that assumption, till definite data shows otherwise.

Still open, but moving forward with the 1/3 having no cant on booster. Like I mentioned, things can easily change based on data.
 
DSCN5692.jpg DSCN5672.jpg DSCN5675.jpg DSCN5683.jpg DSCN5684.jpg DSCN5688.jpg DSCN5696.jpg DSCN5699.jpg 20160323_125336.jpg 20160323_125340.jpg Booster is finished & painted. Sustainer mocked up. [1/3 scale]
Booster 54mm motor. 3 inch airframe.
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Parts for 2 sustainers. 1 has 29mm motor. 2 is 38mm [minimum] both 38mm airframe.
This is to test the spin rate. The 29 is actual 1/3 scale, 38 is just because.

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Tubing is real filament wound, no tow. This was a hard find...LOL It's the HV-Arcus, so there is a very small payload in keeping with actual. Fins are 1/16th. Quarter for scale to show how small. Charlie's beveling jig did outstanding job with such small fins. Nicest bevels I seen on 1/16.

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Canted slots on both through the wall and minimum.
Fin tabs on 29, I/S coupler must clear bottom inside. Just dado's on minimum.

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Motor mount/recovery/ e-match tunnel assembly already glued up/finished. Tunnel is so tiny had to push into oval shape so wire would fit. Had to notch through CR to get tunnel on MM tube. Tunnel is same size as a ball point pen ink replacement!

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For flying 38min. motor is coupler.
For the 29 motor version a coupler is needed. Custom aluminum is made.
It's made like a charge cup...open on one end...bolted to I/S base on other when needed. Actually the threaded rod that runs through middle to hold bay cap on other end of I/S.

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