Please help engine won't fire!

This is my first attemp at rocketry. Got this kit for my son. No idea what im doing wrong. Can't get engine to ignite. Sent first kit back thought it was the controller. 2nd kit arrrived and same thing. Here is a link to show what im doing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHK_DM3wBHM
I insert igniter into small engine hole so tip is touching then insert plug. Fold up ends of igniter no metal touching, insert key in controler light comes on (means i have connection ? Correct) push button light goes off and engine does not ignite. Brand new 9 volt battery. So i took igniter out still attatched to controller put in key light comes on i push button light goes out. Shouldnt the tip on the ignitor heat up or glow or something?

Scott - looks like you're using an off-brand type battery. Estes recommends using a new alkaline 9V. In general, I've had much better luck using Duracell or Energizer. Those off-brand battery's usually can't provide enough current to heat the igniter.

Good luck!
Chris

I concur about the battery. I tried a Rayovac in mine and had poor luck with it. Try a Duracell or Energizer.

I'd say that just under the igniting tip the wires look like they are touching. The igniter's metal wires on either side of the stuff that ignites should not be touching.

Here's a pic of what I mean.


Also I use Rayovac Alkys a lot and they seem fine for me. I've already fired off over 40 rockets this year on them.

Additional tips: Make sure the tip is good, with the motor in the rocket facing down (making sure the nose doesn't fall off) drop in the igniter until it sits all the way down, add plug, push in carefully making sure wires on sides don't touch and make sure clips don't touch. I also bend the ends of the igniter wires into small loops to make them easier to clip. Also if unsure of the controller/battery, try the same test you did in the video and I'd guess even igniters can be bad. Good luck!

All good advice here. Just a note: If that igniter does go off while laying on your leg it might leave a mark. The pyrogen on the end is going to flare up and probably leave you with at the very least a bad memory.

JoeG said:

All good advice here. Just a note: If that igniter does go off while laying on your leg it might leave a mark. The pyrogen on the end is going to flare up and probably leave you with at the very least a bad memory.

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He has "Starters" which contain no pyrogen.
If anything, it may tickle or leave a nice memory.

You need to treat the ignitors gently. The little plastic plug should hold them in place, no need to press real hard as that can break the bridge wire or cause a short. It may still show continuity because the two lead wires are smashed together as shown in post #5.

Just checking the thread now. Wow thanks for so many quick replies. So right after posting this it dawned on my it had to be the battery. I had continuity so it had to be the ammount of juice the crappy battery was pushing. So sure enough i got a duracell and it fired. Lol i do feel bad because i sent the first kit back. The controller was more then likely ok. And i lay the igniter on my leg because i knew after so many tries it wasnt going to fire. But i never say never. Great success today. 6 launches and my son loved it. Ty for all the help

I know that is a bad practice. But i tried enough times i pretty much knew it wouldnt fire. Secondly im wearing Carhart pants. Very thick duck canvas material. Nothing that small is getting through them. But very sound advice. You shouldnt lay an igniter on your leg regardless of either one of my excuses ��

scottv said:

Just checking the thread now. Wow thanks for so many quick replies. So right after posting this it dawned on my it had to be the battery. I had continuity so it had to be the ammount of juice the crappy battery was pushing. So sure enough i got a duracell and it fired. Lol i do feel bad because i sent the first kit back. The controller was more then likely ok. And i lay the igniter on my leg because i knew after so many tries it wasnt going to fire. But i never say never. Great success today. 6 launches and my son loved it. Ty for all the help

Click to expand...

Awesome!

And welcome to the Forum!

scottv said:

Great success today. 6 launches and my son loved it.

Click to expand...

It is so funny to me that Estes has not insulated that part of their ignitors, would avoid so many of these problems.

Glad you got it working, and sounds like you had a good time!

I had one of the new igniters not fire the motor this weekend. The wire burned but the motor failed to light, it was one of 6 or 7 flights with my sons Estes Crayon.

I had a similar issue today. It seems as though, with the new(ish) yellow tipped Estes starters and their standard launch controller you need to have an absolutely fresh/strong 9V battery to get them going *and* hold down the button for a few seconds.

At our club launches where we're using much larger batteries we've not had too many problems (for example I had 3 do-overs out of 40 cub scout launches recently).

I had one of those new whitish starters fail the past weekend at a club launch. I recalled seeing a puff of smoke when the launch button was hit, but the 1/2A3-2T motor failed to ignite and he tip of the igniter was just melted a bit (this has happened a few times now and I don't recall ever seeing the old black ones do this).

I read an article where someone did a big test on the old vs. new igniters and said that the new ones seemed more reliable; however that doesn't seem to be the same in my experience. In fact, I like to save my old black igniters for those launches where a failed igniter means trouble, hassle or more wait. Maybe they're not taking into account rusty or corroded clips at club launches meaning lower voltage.

I feel your frustration... That is part of the reason I built my own launch controller. Mine puts out between 14-16 volts using rechargeable batteries.

Also part of the reason I make my own starters, but that's a different story.

I'm glad everything worked out for you and your son. Enjoy your time together, it's priceless!

Welcome to the Forum, and the wonderful world of rocketry!!

Welcome to TRF.

There are two issues to address.

1.) You have to make sure you are installing the igniters correctly. If you do not place the igniter in contact with the propellant grain inside the motor, or you short the leads, or break the bridgewire, the motor will fail to ignite.

2.) An igniter is a resistor and the electrical heating of the igniter is due to current not voltage. The minimum all-fire current for Estes igniters is 2 amps and the resistance of the typical bridgewire is 0.1 ohms. The minimum power in watts is equal to the resistance multiplied by the minimum current squared or P = R x I^2 = 0.8 ohms x 2 volts^2 = 3.2 watts and the minimum voltage require is the resistance times the current or V = R x I = 0.8 ohms x 2 amps = 1.6 volts.

The launcher wire and battery resistance require you to use a battery voltage higher than 1.6 volts, and if you want prompt ignition you want to use more than the minimum all-fire current. A factor of 2 higher current is a good goal. If that is the option chosen, you use ohms law, V = RI to determine the minimum battery voltage and current required. If you want to deliver 4 amps to the igniter, the voltage must be greater than 3.2 volts plus enough extra to overcome the resistance of the wiring, and the battery must be able to actually deliver amps of current.

A new alkaline 9 volt battery can supply between 3 to 5 amps. This means the internal resistance of the battery R = V/R = 9/5 = 1.8 ohms to 9/3 = 3 ohms. If we assume the resistance of the launcher is 0.2 ohms, the total resistance of your launching circuit is R = 0.8 ohms (igniter) + 0.2 ohms (launcher) + 1.8 to 3 ohms (battery) = 2.8 to 4 ohms total. The current pushed through the igniter is simple I = V / R = 9/4 = 2.25 amps to 9/2.8 = 3.2 amps. If you have dirty clips the resistance goes up and the current delivered goes down. Please note that even though you have plenty of voltage, the total circuit resistant reduces the current dramatically, and in the case of a 3 amp, 9 volt battery any dirt will prevent the igniter from firing. If you we using a regular (non-alkaline) 9 volt battery, the internal resistance of the battery is probably greater than 5 ohms and you will not get the minimum 2 amps through the launcher to activate the igniter.

I know it may be confusing, even to the experienced person, but you have to be sure your battery, regardless of the voltage rating, is up to the job, supplying enough current, to activate the igniter.

Bob

Estes needs to do a better job communicating that their 9V launch controllers really need a good name-brand battery to function properly. Or simply go back to using double As.