Preheating Epoxy?

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McKailas Dad

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I've had some Proline 4100 Epoxy that has 'crystallized' and I've heard to heat it up to make it all liquid again. That has worked well for me.

I have also heard of people that warm up their epoxy before mixing it to get it a flash more quickly.

Any ballpark temperatures recommended if I were to try that?
 
I suspect that this is one of those things where a little goes a long way, methinks 80F would be pushing your luck.
Rex
 
I was reading over the specifics I found here -

https://iss.ae.illinois.edu/studentlaunch/2014-2015/documents/MSDS/Proline_Epoxy_4100.pdf

It says the pot life at 72 degrees is 20 minutes. Ignorant question, but what exactly does that mean? It's too jelly like to be effective? I've used it at near bubble gum consistency to attach Kevlar inside of FG nosecones, and it hasn't failed yet.

I looked for a MSDS, with not much luck. Do they even make 4100 anymore? Lol the Proline site didn't even list it?

It obviously gets warm, almost hot while mixing it, though I've never actually checked the temperature. Maybe I'll check next time, but to preheat it to 20-30 degrees below whatever that temp would be?

I usually do very small (6 gram) batches, I just use it as an adhesive, for FG builds, not as a laminate .
 
pot life will vary depending on starting temp and the size and shape of the pot. I have seen laminating resin reach 140F in a paper cup. you lose a lot of strength if you try to 'use' epoxy after it starts to 'gel'. I consider 2.2g a small batch :)(about right for doing a bt60 coupler).
Rex
 
One thing to keep in mind; curing epoxy is an exothermic reaction. (that means it gives off heat as it cures). You can cause a run-away condition where the epoxy gets hot enough to damage the mix or even catch on fire. Read the following and see if it answers any/all of your questions:
https://www.westsystem.com/ss/epoxy-chemistry/
 
I was reading over the specifics I found here -i

https://iss.ae.illinois.edu/studentlaunch/2014-2015/documents/MSDS/Proline_Epoxy_4100.pdf

It says the pot life at 72 degrees is 20 minutes. Ignorant question, but what exactly does that mean? It's too jelly like to be effective? .

What that means is that the mixture at 21 minutes no longer has the structure integrity of "perfect" once hardened. "No longer perfect" is a sliding scale - you mentioned epoxy at the bubble gum stage, which has SIGNIFICANTLY less breaking strength once hardened than full liquid epoxy that's been allowed to cure in situ from a liquid state.

Sadly I've never used Proline, only West System, so with respect to your original question I have no idea whether heating crystalline epoxy will affect it's hold post cure - but I'd suspect it wouldn't. I would bet that heating the resin would reconstitute it, but it would significantly reduce the pot life (see the exothermic reaction in the post above - it gets so hot the whole thing can catch fire). I'd heat it to reconstitute it, then let it cool before I started to use it.
 
Ten seconds in the microwave before mixing. I do this just to get it to flow out of the plastic bottles in the winter.
 
My shop space is somewhere between 50 and 55 degrees in the winter, so my epoxy comes out of the bottles (or pump) kinda on the thick side. I mix it and hit it with a short blast from my heat gun until it gets to the dame viscosity as it is in the summertime. Works out pretty nice and the epoxy treated this way takes just a little less time to set than when I use it without a heat gun in the summer.

Take care,

Duane Wilkey
TRA 4295/NAR 63416
L3 former L3CC member
 
In Texas, I need the opposite. I use take out containers to make an ice water bath to cool the resin/hardener mix to extend the pot life:

attachment.php
 
I've had some Proline 4100 Epoxy that has 'crystallized' and I've heard to heat it up to make it all liquid again. That has worked well for me.

Same here on the crystallization. When Hobby People has the two part 4oz. bottles on a 40% off sale I usually buy 4 or 5 to stock up. Sometimes they sit a while and the one bottle, the resin I think, will crystalize for some reason and I also just pop it in the microwave for 10 to 20 seconds and give it a shake and it goes back to liquid state and stays that way. Been doing that for years with no issues after mixing and using it for a build. I also do what Jimzcatz does during cold months. 10 seconds or so in the microwave to get it to flow better.

Just as a side note, I have never had West Systems crystalize before. After a long time, the hardener will turn as dark as molasses but no affect on performance.

...Fudd
 
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No longer called MSDS, due to global harmonization now called SDS or Safety Data Sheets.

Notice the little symbols that show up now all mean the same thing in different parts of the world. Part of a worldwide change to make sure products going from one country to another use the same symbols and SDS.

Mike
 
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I had this happen too. What I did was to fill my utility sink with hot water, put the can in there for a while. This got some of it. I refilled the sink with hot water, shook the epoxy can vigorously to loosen up chunks, and put the can back in. Worked like a charm.
 
I use a hot box with some of my epoxy. It really does help melt some of the semi-solids.
 
Be careful about this. The fumes from heating could accelerate an eventual allergic reaction to epoxy. Same reason why you never want to get it on your skin.

To me, the ONLY good reason to warm up epoxy before mixing is if it is crystallized or become too thick to pour, and you have no other option at the time to use it (or wait till you can get more). But once you know that, you really ought to line up getting some more, not keep using it.

I have never done that, BTW. I get newer epoxy. Last fall I did have a bottle that was very thick to the point it would not pour worth a darn. Needed to do the build that night. I took the top off and used a dowel to help pull-scrape the nearly jelly epoxy out, and fortuantely when I mixed in the other part, that other part made the very thick epoxy thin out so that it mixed properly. And I was able to complete the build. But for one, it was not for a critical strength project (I was building a paint spray booth), as I would not have trusted that for a model or other project that needed high-strength gluing. And for the other, within days I got some new epoxy to replace the old jellied stuff.

Pre-warming for the sake of making it simply cure faster risks having it start to cure too soon, and still does nothing to achieve the final cure when in a too-cool / cold place.

The better way is to mix it up without warming it, get the job done, THEN put the model in a warm place to accelerate the cure.

Indeed in let's say a 55 degree workshop, even if the epoxy was pre-warmed, by the time the epoxy is applied to the model, it is thinned out so much that it is cooled back to room temperature and will have much the same problem with not curing well since it is too thin (thickness, bulk, not viscosity) to generate a good exothermic reaction at a low temperature.

What I use is a home made "Hot Box". I built it out of blue foam. It uses a couple of incandescent light bulbs inside to produce heat. And a computer "puck" cooling fan to circulate the air to make the temperature uniform inside. It can get as hot as 147 degrees. If I want it not as hot I unscrew one bulb or put a shim of wood under one of the bottom edges to allow a bit of leakage, and check the indoor/outdoor thermometer (sensor is on a wire inside the box) to monitor the temperature. Works great.

rheFcir.jpg


Link to a previous post about it, with more pics: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?63213-Parts-for-Arduino-based-Oven&p=673169#post673169

Another thing I did before I made that, was to use an old Trunk, 30" long, with an electric Heating Pad inside of it. I used that to help speed the cure of FAI 40mm fiberglass body tubes. But that was not big enough or convenient when I got into laying up vac-bagged composite wings for R/C Rocket Boosted Gliders (Epoxy with a 60 minute working time, with some heating almost mandatory for a good cure and maximum strength/stiffness). So I made the hot box to be big enough for those needs, 48" long, 24" wide, 18" tall. Could have been made longer/bigger of course.

The other option is that once you are done, just take the model out of the cold workshop and put it into a warmer place inside the house. I like to keep the bathroom extra warm so I'm not chilled during/after showering, so that is where I used to put a model that was using epoxy needing a 24 hour cure. And I still use that approach for when I have a new RTV casting mold, as the hot box would get it so warm that it could promote shrinkage of the RTV mold.

- George Gassaway
 
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Preheating Epoxy?
Don't do that. See below...

One thing to keep in mind; curing epoxy is an exothermic reaction. (that means it gives off heat as it cures). You can cause a run-away condition where the epoxy gets hot enough to damage the mix or even catch on fire. Read the following and see if it answers any/all of your questions:
https://www.westsystem.com/ss/epoxy-chemistry/
Had this exact thing happen to me last summer when mixing West Systems on a hot day - the batch got hot enough to get into "thermal runaway" and just about burned my fingers, curing very rapidly in the process. It got so hot I moved the cup outside since I was worried it would catch fire, but thankfully it didn't.
 
Don't do that. See below...


Had this exact thing happen to me last summer when mixing West Systems on a hot day - the batch got hot enough to get into "thermal runaway" and just about burned my fingers, curing very rapidly in the process. It got so hot I moved the cup outside since I was worried it would catch fire, but thankfully it didn't.

You didn't mention how much you were mixing at the time but if you need a large batch, use a larger, wider mixing cup or mix multiple.batches to get the quantity that you require. Even brand new epoxy mixed at ideal ratios in ideal conditions can run away on you as it begins to cure and generate heat. I have used epoxy resins that have a 30 min or longer pot life and require a curing oven run off in the mixing cup in as little as 10 min when too large a batch was mixed in too small cup.
 
You didn't mention how much you were mixing at the time but if you need a large batch, use a larger, wider mixing cup or mix multiple.batches to get the quantity that you require. Even brand new epoxy mixed at ideal ratios in ideal conditions can run away on you as it begins to cure and generate heat. I have used epoxy resins that have a 30 min or longer pot life and require a curing oven run off in the mixing cup in as little as 10 min when too large a batch was mixed in too small cup.
It was indeed a large-ish batch (2 pumps of 105/205, don't recall the exact volumes). My solution was to mix smaller batches (1 pump each) in the evening once it cooled down a bit. No problems that time around.
 
You didn't mention how much you were mixing at the time but if you need a large batch, use a larger, wider mixing cup or mix multiple.batches to get the quantity that you require. Even brand new epoxy mixed at ideal ratios in ideal conditions can run away on you as it begins to cure and generate heat. I have used epoxy resins that have a 30 min or longer pot life and require a curing oven run off in the mixing cup in as little as 10 min when too large a batch was mixed in too small cup.

When I am doing the layup for composite wings, it can take well over an hour before it's "done" and ready to go into the vacuum bag. I need every minute of that 60 minute working time. What I do is mix it quickly in a big enough cup, then quickly pour it into a paper plate. That spreads it out so thin that it does not have much of an exothermic reaction, compared to being in a cup. If I wanted a little bit more working time I would pour the epoxy directly into the paper plate and THEN mix it (eliminating the start of an exothermic reaction when mixing in the cup), but it is a bit trickier to get it fully mixed that way.

I never try to use ice to keep it cool as that would cause condensation, water and epoxy don't like each other. Fortunately the paper plate method itself works well enough for what I need, before it starts to get too thick.

If I needed more time, I'd use an aluminum pie pan, and line it with aluminum foil for the mixed epoxy so as not to ruin the pan. And then put cool (not cold) water into a large and deep enough container (like a plastic storage box) that would allow the water to stay a bit cooler than room temp for a good while, and lay the aluminum pan into the water. So, a heat-sink type approach to keep the epoxy from getting any exothermic reaction going while in the pan.

- George Gassaway
 
When it's cold in the garage I warm epoxy with a heat gun. If it's the BSI 5-30 minute type I evenly heat the bottles until they are warm to the touch (~90F). I have warmed mixed Rocketpoxy as recommend by the owner of the company. It helps it flow and cure a bit faster.

As usual, it seems like people are overreacting. Use some common sense. If you're mixing a gallon of epoxy in 100 degree heat it might not be a good idea. If you're mixing a few grams and you need to wear a jacket in the shop then it should be fine.
 
As usual, it seems like people are overreacting. Use some common sense. If you're mixing a gallon of epoxy in 100 degree heat it might not be a good idea. If you're mixing a few grams and you need to wear a jacket in the shop then it should be fine.

Pic Coating epoxy.

20 minute pot life.

Room temperature (about 72-75 degrees)

Mixed about 1 ounce into a plastic cup.

Left it in the cup.

2 minutes later it was SMOKING. First runaway exothermic reaction I'd ever seen, certainly the worst.

Not exactly a gallon in 100 degree heat.

It's a real issue, it is stupid to see it being made fun of like that.

Also, if I was working in a 55 degree shop, and I have when I was in an unheated apartment: The epoxy I use for laying up composite wings would NEVER CURE, not even if I heated it up before mixing, because the exothermic curing reaction needed to cure properly would not occur at 55 degrees. I'd have to do something after the layup to warm it up enough to cure properly.

But what the h... do I know. Go ahead and pre-heat in 55 degrees but do not complain on TRF later when it does not cure right. And at room temperature, leave it in the cup instead of putting it into paper plate to spread it out thin, and do not complain on TRF if later it cures too fast or smokes.

And if you get any health problems due to breathing epoxy fumes, do not complain about that on TRF either.

- George Gasaway
 
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I had a Methyl Methacrylate adhesive once that gave me a surprise. I was using it outdoors and it wasn't very hot outside but the pot life was way shorter than advertised. Strange. I emailed ShadowAero which is where I bought it, It turns out that the reaction is accelerated by UV. It was a bright sunny day and I was using it outdoors.

Closer to the thread topic, I've had West Systems epoxy that was a little too deep in a container start to smoke. I learned to mix smaller amounts and deal accordingly.
 
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