Level 1-3 cert duration quesiton

watermelonman said:

What if you live out in the Saskatchewan on acres of your own land with no big town for hundreds of miles? They are encouraging you to go lone wolf, which is bad news for the hobby.

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Angelo in another thread made a point that he (CTI) requires the name & club affiliation for motor purchases. this might be an Ontario only thing. While I can get 1/2A to G motors locally with just proof that I'm over 18, I do know for higher impulse I need to show my CAR card. (At least that's what I've been lead to believe. No mention of club affiliation needed..)

As for "joining a local club" not as easy as you would expect here in Canada... few & far between

And as pointed out in another thread, CAR is in need of some updates; web site updates. I know I had issues when I first joined back in , oh, 2003.. and I know Angelo tried to make some changes. But despite an increase in yearly dues ($65/year), nothing much seems to have changed on the site..

dr wogz said:

Angelo in another thread made a point that he (CTI) requires the name & club affiliation for motor purchases. this might be an Ontario only thing. While I can get 1/2A to G motors locally with just proof that I'm over 18, I do know for higher impulse I need to show my CAR card. (At least that's what I've been lead to believe. No mention of club affiliation needed..)

As for "joining a local club" not as easy as you would expect here in Canada... few & far between

And as pointed out in another thread, CAR is in need of some updates; web site updates. I know I had issues when I first joined back in , oh, 2003.. and I know Angelo tried to make some changes. But despite an increase in yearly dues ($65/year), nothing much seems to have changed on the site..

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Just going out on a limb, here ... but you could contact CAR and see if they will allow a club of a very small number of people -- basically, you, your family, and anyone else you can find locally that wants to do it. You could get a section grant, buy a launchpad or two, go small.... But you would get the insurance and the ability to get certified. You would still need to travel to a bigger launch to get certified, but only once for each level if you are successful.

Originally, the NAR also had a requirement that you needed to remain a member or your HPR Cert level was lost. There was a 1-year "grace" window to renew or lose the HPR cert and need to start over if you renewed later. That policy was changed a few years ago, so that if you finally rejoined, you got your old cert back.

But I also want to verify and remind everyone of a fact that has been mentioned already, you do NOT get HPR cert FOR LIFE. You get HPR Cert for as long as your membership is valid. If your NAR membership expires say March first, your HPR Cert will expire March 1st too. So you have to renew to re-activate your old HPR cert. During the time your membership has lapsed, your HPR cert is no good (think of it like a driver's license expiring. Lots of luck convincing the police you can still legally drive on a public road when your license has expired).

Bat-mite said:

Also, I believe TRA operates under the idea that if you haven't flown HPR in over a year, you have probably forgotten a lot of things. I mean, if I were an RSO, I might be a little worried that someone is Level 3, but hasn't launched a rocket is five years.....

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No logic in that being a reason. A person could pay to keep their membership active and not fly anything for 10 years, then go out to fly. So if not flying in a long time is a reason, then paying for membership would not be as good of a safety response to the issue as requiring people to fly at their current Cert level every year or their HPR cert level would drop down one level for each year. I am NOT suggesting that to be done, it would suck. Just pointing out that if how active one flies was the criteria, then the proper way to address it would be more like actual active flying status than to focus on whether someone paid to renew their membership (since paying membership dues has nothing to do with how often anyone flies anything).

For those who say they are not a member, and do not fly HPR with local clubs..... where do you fly with FAA waivers (which of course can be granted without NAR or TRA involvement) and fly legally under the requirements of NFPA 1127?

- George Gassaway

Hmmmmmmm? Maybe one day Academy, Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops will require membership in the Boy Scouts of America and Eagle Scout status before one can buy a sleeping bag and go camping? :wink:

The underlying question/statement is about value per dollar in rocketry, and the feeling that you aren't getting what you've paid for. Rocketry is not a cheap hobby, but then neither is golf, yachting, or a whole host of others. Most in the hobby wouldn't be able to justify the cost of an M motor, some wouldn't be able to afford a G - everyone has their financial threshold. In Canada (and in southern Ontario in particular) it's a very tough go.

RE fees to the national body (be it Tripoli, NAR, or CAR) the sport/hobby needs national representation or the ability to launch goes away in some way shape or form. In terms of value for dollar, only you can decide whether you're getting your money's worth, but if you lose something that you appreciate while not supporting your national body... you need a mirror when assessing part of the blame. RE fees to the local club, the club pays for any number of things that are necessary to be able to launch - simply stated, without it the ability to launch goes away for many. (The OP is Canadian, and it's illegal to launch from public parks, so a city dweller without country friends is SOL without their local club). As per the national fees, only you can determine whether the local club dues give you value for money, and you decide with your feet if the answer is no. Bear in mind, if the weather is bad and a launch gets scrubbed, the local club still has their costs.

The other solution is to get involved. If you don't like the value per $ then get your hands dirty and fix what you don't like. Sure it's more work, but often you'll get what you want if you're leading the charge, and without SOMEONE doing the work nothing happens.

The rules / regs I am aware of for here in Canada, is as NAR states, nothing much needed for: up to 1.5kg rocket, 160N, 62.5g propellant, 5mi (9km) from the center of an airport, etc... I have flown on school grounds, parks (not provincial or federal) even off a lake (frozen of course) I tend to launch the larger ones off the back-side of my R/C field. Most rocketry now actually! Getting info on where, & when & how usually comes from the the NAR pamphlet included in Estes kits. Most places you buy kits & motors probably don't know any more either.. You only become aware of Transport Canada when you start looking at HPR & certification. (How many high school kids are aware of TransCan regs, let alone able to weed thru them looking for the little iddi-biddy section on model rockets..)

No one said rocketry is cheap, but with all that's been said, comparing it to another past time (golf, sailing, motor cars) most of them those clubs are open year round, and you can participate year round, as much as you want, whenever. Some rocketry clubs ask you to join, yet only launch 4-8 times a year. So, you feel rather limited / constrained.. Add in the need to join each & every year, and join the governing body each & every year for a "chance". Some clubs have monthly, bi-weekly launches, some don't. The latter seems to be more the norm this side of the fence..

My good friend & I are contemplating a new "Montreal based" club, as he has some family near Hawkesbury Ontario who has a farm. That's the plan.. 2+ a jr to start.. Poach a few from ORG, a few from ARQ, and there's our {new} club.. But yes, time & energy needed to get it past the 'pipe dream' stage..

Re launching, I'm pleased to have read what you've written. I was under the impression that launching from a public park was verboten.

RE year round activities, given that I both golf and sail I an assure you that neither is a year round activity in Canada. At best you're April through October/early November unless you head south.

My last statement remains. If you want to launch in the "shoulder seasons", find a field and get your own waiver. Or help with your local club if others are unable/unwilling.

I don't get what the big deal about recerting is. It just means you get to fly a rocket.

ericclinedinst said:

I think the point is that the goal is to get more people into the hobby but adding fee on top of fee on top of fee is making that cost prohibitive in today's economy. I'll pretty much never be ordering a motor from anywhere online because of this "Hazmat" fee.

Not to mention joining one of these local clubs is kind of a rip off. Especially anywhere that has moderately bad weather. Launches get skipped with no makeup date. Bust. Waste of money.

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Clubs don't run for free.
The TRA/CAR/NAR insurance and other benefits have been listed.


There's no magic fairy who pays for all that club equipment, and I don't know of any prefect's sitting on gold thrones drinking out of a chalice.

The fees are quite reasonable.

Bat-mite said:

My guess is that if there are these kinds of complaints, they aren't making their way to the BODs of the clubs. If changes to bylaws are desired by the majority of members, then they will happen. I think most people join up, pay their dues, complain about what they don't like, and that's the end of it. People with complaints should get involved and have things brought up for a vote. Welcome to democracy!

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DON'T do it!!!! That's how I wound up on the BoD




There's another point.... All you need to do to recert is...fly another rocket. It's not that difficult. But I get the idea you just want to cert, then never pay again.

It's really not much different than flying model aircraft, most fields require you to be an active AMA member so they're covered by your insurance. If you let your L1 lapse, all you have to do to get it back is to re-join NAR/TRA and buy one L1 cert motor. Not a big deal. L2, yeah, you need to retake the test, but things change every few years so it's not much different than having to re-take your written test every 10 years with the DMV. NAR/TRA membership is the cost of one decent 38mm motor, it's really a bargain.

I recert L1 every launch I go to. Not an issue.

grouch said:

I don't get what the big deal about recerting is. It just means you get to fly a rocket.

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L1, sure. Needing to redo L3 would be a major pain.

watermelonman said:

L1, sure. Needing to redo L3 would be a major pain.

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Not really. Just fire off your old L3 rocket again...(TRA)

DizWolf said:

Not really. Just fire off your old L3 rocket again...(TRA)

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Well, those launches are expensive, and assume your TAPs are around.

watermelonman said:

L1, sure. Needing to redo L3 would be a major pain.

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See this is exactly why I have no interest in L3 at this time. The way I see it, if you are not flying enough L3 flights to justify going through the process then you only did it to check a box. I know plenty of guys who fly multiple L3 flights a year and in my eyes they are L3 pilots, not the cat that flew one L3 flight four years ago and hung it up after that.

dr wogz said:

A friend & I were looking into finally getting our level 1 and possibly level 2 this year. But looking things over, one thing kinda sticks out.. If your membership lapses for one year or more, you are reset back to level 0, needing to redo all the tests & test flights.. While our requirement is CAR oriented, I see Tripoli has the same clause..

Has it always been this way? or is this a recent change? Is there a reason behind it?

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Do you ever check the CAR rules on the CAR website for rules and updates?

https://www.canadianrocketry.org/cert_level_1-3.php

Bob

ericclinedinst said:

Bro. We can't even get a launch to happen with the Cambridge Rocketry Club.... much less a vote on anything. Lol.

https://www.cambridgerocketclub.org/

They want $25 out of you for dues but haven't had a launch since August. Plus like stated before. Can't launch unless you're a member of CAR and MAAC also. So you're looking at $125-150 before you even launch a lpr or mpr. Much less a hpr

#ripoff

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Stepping up on the soap box......

Hobbies aren't free. There are costs. In rocketry, you have to pay for your rockets and your motors. You also may have to join your local club and a national organization. Why? Because the clubs and the national organizations make it possible to pursue your hobby. In many locations, you can not gain access to public land without a permit and proof of insurance that the national organizations provide at no cost to the clubs. In our area, it's a minimum $2 million liability policy in addition to a $200 to $240 per day field rental fee. Can you afford to pony up the insurance policy costs or the field rental costs. Unlikely if you are complaining about club and national organization costs.

I'm not familiar with Canadian prices, but in the US NAR pays an annual insurance premium of ~$50,000-$60,000 for a primary liability policy with Lloyd's of London for their members. (That's ~$10 per member per year.) TRA pay about $110,000 for the same level policy but it includes research rocketry which NAR does not allow. (That's about $27 per member.) Both are pennies on the dollar for what you would have to pay to have a several million dollar umbrella policy rider added to your home or automobile policy, any you wouldn't have close to the same coverage. Both NAR and TRA sponsor National Events and educational programs (NAR's Magazine alone is ~$32 per member from it's dues.). Both NAR and TRA (AFAIK) have exactly one paid employee, their part time national office secretary, who does all the organizations membership recording and paperwork. All other positions are volunteer. Your local club is also all volunteer run.

These organizations are as good as their volunteers and members make them. I have to ask why your club hasn't had a launch since August? Do you have problems getting a field? Does your club have meeting? Have you gone to a club meeting? Have you volunteered to help out organizing launches? Does you club have officer elections? If your club has organizational problems?

You're complaining a lot. If you don't like what going on, do something about it. Clubs don't just happen. People make them happen. Get involved with the club. Help out. Run for office. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.....

ericclinedinst said:

Just figured it all out

Cambridge Rocket Club $25 (hasn't had a launch since July)
MAAC $95
CAR $65

So right off the top you're out $185 to launch with the local club 5 times a year if you're lucky.

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See comments above.

I'm a club officer in 2 clubs: one NAR and the other NAR&TRA. I'm the Tech Officer of NAR S&T. I belong to both NAR and TRA and have been on the organizational committees for both NARCON and LDRS and several regional launches and conferences. I've been a Moderator and/or Administrator on the forum for more than 10 years, and I'm a member of USAF Auxiliary, commonly known as the Civil Air Patrol. These are all volunteer organizations and I donate about 2,000 hours of my time to these organizations each year. I'm not alone. All these organization are run by volunteers for their membership and the common good. If you are unhappy about the hobby in your neck of the woods, do something about it.

Stepping down off the soap box.

Bob

grouch said:

See this is exactly why I have no interest in L3 at this time. The way I see it, if you are not flying enough L3 flights to justify going through the process then you only did it to check a box. I know plenty of guys who fly multiple L3 flights a year and in my eyes they are L3 pilots, not the cat that flew one L3 flight four years ago and hung it up after that.

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I fully intend to just check that box off and go back to flying a bunch of L2 stuff. Why? I dunno, cuz it's there?

DizWolf said:

I fully intend to just check that box off and go back to flying a bunch of L2 stuff. Why? I dunno, cuz it's there?

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That's why I did the L2 but I have only flown 1-2 J's. I seem to loiter around the G-I range. I were to do it all over again I'd just stick with the L1 motors. Since I had a lapse in the above reasoning and purchased a 54/1706 case and a K513, I guess I better start planning another L2 build and eat some crow. Still trying to decide what to build for it. I don't want anything too big but I also don't want anything to go too high either. Maybe a 54mm Stealth or flying lawn furniture??

grouch said:

That's why I did the L2 but I have only flown 1-2 J's. I seem to loiter around the G-I range. I were to do it all over again I'd just stick with the L1 motors. Since I had a lapse in the above reasoning and purchased a 54/1706 case and a K513, I guess I better start planning another L2 build and eat some crow. Still trying to decide what to build for it. I don't want anything too big but I also don't want anything to go too high either. Maybe a 54mm Stealth or flying lawn furniture??

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Check out Mike Fisher's Binder Terrordactyl--big fins, high drag, might be perfect for what you describe.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ctyl-build-is-finished!&p=1530845#post1530845

DizWolf said:

I fully intend to just check that box off and go back to flying a bunch of L2 stuff. Why? I dunno, cuz it's there?

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I'm with you, sort of.... I want to be Level 3 because it is the pinnacle of achievement in this hobby. And I think that I might actually fly an M motor once a year or so. I actually fly more L1 motors than anything because they are easier to recover, shorter walk, and you can see the entire flight.

But I want to have the option of flying L3 motors, even if I don't do it often.

Well, there seems to be a disconnect with CAR's website, and the "Get certified" info & reference packet we got form the local club:

From page 3 of the "Certification Program"

??The certification is valid for one year after the certification date or until the end of the CAR member's membership, which ever comes first. The card is recognized as proof of the certification level. The certification card should be destroyed upon receipt of a new CAR membership card which shows the certification level.

Lapses in CAR membership over one year will void all certifications. Certifications will have to be repeated starting with Level 1. (on page 6)

The two quotes above come from the PDF we got in the info kit.. What Bob found was off the CAR website (Thank you!!). I think we`ve established that the CAR site is outta date, and is in need of an update. I think we`ve also established that the scene in Canada is much smaller than in the US, so clubs & such are harder to come by. Not to mention the lack of `winter flying`` (which you would figure would be the better time to fly! no crops, no mud / puddles, no leaves, lakes frozen....)

I do wish NAR was available up here, and that CAR was somewhat 'optional' but it is what we have, and what we need to contend with.. I am curious, except for Angelo, I wonder if any CAR execs are on these boards..

cerving said:

It's really not much different than flying model aircraft, most fields require you to be an active AMA member so they're covered by your insurance. If you let your L1 lapse, all you have to do to get it back is to re-join NAR/TRA and buy one L1 cert motor. Not a big deal. L2, yeah, you need to retake the test, but things change every few years so it's not much different than having to re-take your written test every 10 years with the DMV. NAR/TRA membership is the cost of one decent 38mm motor, it's really a bargain.

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True, but I can let my AMA lapse and still fly a 40%er at a private field. AMA, broken down to its core, is an insurance program.

dr wogz said:

I do wish NAR was available up here, and that CAR was somewhat 'optional' but it is what we have, and what we need to contend with.. I am curious, except for Angelo, I wonder if any CAR execs are on these boards..

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I think there are a few NAR sections in Canada.

From what I understand:

There are a few 'NAR recognized' clubs here in Canada, and all 'early' rocketeers read the enclosed NAR safety pamphlet. But all high power (clubs / meets / launches) need CAR recognition. They may be a NAR / TRA prefect, but still need to fall into the CAR camp. (The Quebec club was a TRA recognized club, but still needed CAR & CAR memberships)

In the US, it's one or the other (or both) [NAR or TRA]

I think one of the underlying things we're discussing is that some clubs only have a handful of launches per year. So, getting your level 1 or level 2 and maintaining the membership costs to both a club and an organization is one half the issue. But, what if the club you've joined is the pits, and you want to join another and there isn't one... What if your current club folds, and you can only make it to the odd event per year.. You're paying for a privilege you can barely take advantage of.. paying for the expected / hopeful chance to do so.. in the near, not so near future..

"Oooh, LDRS is coming to NY in two years!" Do I / why do I need to maintain my CAR for the next two years so I can take advantage of their 20K waiver & dust off / launch my 38mm. But my home my club sucks, folded, is a 3 hr drive, etc etc and I'm happily flying A-G outta the local soy field, so the need for CAR is kinda pointless.. But I need to maintain my level 1 (or 2 or 3)...

I think the short answer here, and what I try to teach my kids, is that life isn't always fair. Make the decision that is best for you, even if it isn't perfect. Heck, I don't like paying taxes to support a lot of things the government spends my money on, but I can either pay or leave. Unfortunately, rocketry is not a popular enough hobby for it to be economically feasible for everyone, everywhere. If there were six national organizations and three to five clubs in every state, I think things would be a lot different.

dr wogz said:

"Oooh, LDRS is coming to NY in two years!" Do I / why do I need to maintain my CAR for the next two years so I can take advantage of their 20K waiver & dust off / launch my 38mm. But my home my club sucks, folded, is a 3 hr drive, etc etc and I'm happily flying A-G outta the local soy field, so the need for CAR is kinda pointless.. But I need to maintain my level 1 (or 2 or 3)...

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For $30/yr you are quite welcome to come fly 18K with us anytime, https://urrg.us/join/ I don't recall ever canceling a launch besides the two day washout at LDRS, and that was quite motivated by the volume of fliers. So that's at least 7 Weekends a year. I do find the may/june/july launches to be the best for high shots.


It boils down to if you want to fly more, drive far, or find your own field. It's not the national's responsibility to provide launch oppurtunities. That's your job to provide, and every club has a hard time maintaining relationships to keep those fields going.

DizWolf said:

For $30/yr you are quite welcome to come fly 18K with us anytime, https://urrg.us/join/ I don't recall ever canceling a launch besides the two day washout at LDRS, and that was quite motivated by the volume of fliers. So that's at least 7 Weekends a year. I do find the may/june/july launches to be the best for high shots.


It boils down to if you want to fly more, drive far, or find your own field. It's not the national's responsibility to provide launch oppurtunities. That's your job to provide, and every club has a hard time maintaining relationships to keep those fields going.

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Wait. You're in Lancaster, Ny????? Where do you fly. I'm just in Niagara Falls. When/where can I come fly with you guys. Show me the way. I'll just get my NAR/TRIPOLI membership and call it a day. I'm tired of playing with these Canadian clubs trying to launch.