Level 1-3 cert duration quesiton

A friend & I were looking into finally getting our level 1 and possibly level 2 this year. But looking things over, one thing kinda sticks out.. If your membership lapses for one year or more, you are reset back to level 0, needing to redo all the tests & test flights.. While our requirement is CAR oriented, I see Tripoli has the same clause..

Has it always been this way? or is this a recent change? Is there a reason behind it?

Yes. It's a way to get more money out of you. Lol. The man always wins.

It has been that way as long as I have known. NAR apparently keeps certification set for life regardless of payment but I am not sure if that is an option for you.

It is reason to keep paying your member dues! They are not much, comparable to a single J motor.

Yes, NAR keeps the level for life. TRA & CAR are yearly.

I'm in Canada, therefore CAR applies. $55CAD + club membership per year to launch a handful of times (6, maybe)... Same price as a J...

The reason is simple, they want, and need your money. CAR, TRA and NAR have done a lot to keep us flying. if you're in the US and flying HP, thank the NAR and TRA for removing the erroneous requirement for a LEUP. They also provide us with insurance that directly translates into access for fields, as many landowners wouldn't consider it without insurance. And they run cert programs, interface with NFPA and the FAA. Well worth the money to keep the hobby alive and well

Also, I believe TRA operates under the idea that if you haven't flown HPR in over a year, you have probably forgotten a lot of things. I mean, if I were an RSO, I might be a little worried that someone is Level 3, but hasn't launched a rocket is five years....

But the way around it is to join NAR and TRA. If you need to drop out of the hobby, then rejoin NAR first. They will reinstate your certification. Then rejoin TRA and transfer your cert level over.

I am not sure I see a problem.

If you fly high power you will need to remain a member of CAR (or NAR, TRA) in order to do so. You are high power certified only as long as you are a member. If your membership lapses for one day you are no longer certified. You must rejoin within one year in order to regain your certification without going through the process.

If your membership lapses for more than a year then you need to take the test, which is something we all might think about reviewing from time to time anyway., Then you have to fly high power rockets again, which is what you were going to do anyway.

The national organizations do need our support. All three used to have the one year rule. A few years back NAR changed theirs to drop the time limit if you could remember your old number or something like that.

I'm not sure that any rule can guarantee competency. In Tripoli or CAR you don't have to prove you have been an active member. You just have to keep your membership current. You could probably even join for a year and certify and then drop out for eleven months and then rejoin for another year, etc. keeping in mind that you are only a certified flier during the time you are a member of the organization.

To re-certify L1 and L2 in Canada all you have to do is pass the test and fly one H motor and one I motor. If you are not going to do that why certify in the first place. If you just want proof that you have certified hang on to your old membership card.

I'm sure I'm missing something but I don't know what it is.

What you're missing is the fact that to get l1 l2 and l3 certifications they nickel and dime you to death to get there. Join local club... pay $50 dues (yearly). Join NAR... pay $55 dues (yearly). Buy hp cert rocket $22.50 (estes psII)- $xxx.xx. Buy motor. Blah blah blah. Some people are lucky to even be able to have the money to buy a $10 rocket and have the money to finish and buy motors to fly it in their back yard. Much less pay some club/organization $100s of dollars ever year just to have the 'privilege' of being able to fire off a rocket.

Stuff ads up for us poor folk. Half the people in this post that say 'money is no big deal. Support the hobby. Blah blah. We are supporting it by buying a rocket in the first place. Sorry we don't all make close to a six figure income to be able to give to every Tom, Dick, and Harry along the way.

Stuff does indeed add up.

Try purchasing private High Power Rocketry insurance independent of a national sanctioning body for anywhere less than what you pay for your annual dues.

Get back to us on that.......

I think the point is that the goal is to get more people into the hobby but adding fee on top of fee on top of fee is making that cost prohibitive in today's economy. I'll pretty much never be ordering a motor from anywhere online because of this "Hazmat" fee.

Not to mention joining one of these local clubs is kind of a rip off. Especially anywhere that has moderately bad weather. Launches get skipped with no makeup date. Bust. Waste of money.

ericclinedinst said:

What you're missing is the fact that to get l1 l2 and l3 certifications they nickel and dime you to death to get there. Join local club... pay $50 dues (yearly). Join NAR... pay $55 dues (yearly). Buy hp cert rocket $22.50 (estes psII)- $xxx.xx. Buy motor. Blah blah blah. Some people are lucky to even be able to have the money to buy a $10 rocket and have the money to finish and buy motors to fly it in their back yard. Much less pay some club/organization $100s of dollars ever year just to have the 'privilege' of being able to fire off a rocket.

Stuff ads up for us poor folk. Half the people in this post that say 'money is no big deal. Support the hobby. Blah blah. We are supporting it by buying a rocket in the first place. Sorry we don't all make close to a six figure income to be able to give to every Tom, Dick, and Harry along the way.

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No one forces anyone to fly high powered. Most who do agree that it should be called "high priced" rocketry. Lots can be done in low power, just take a look at NARTEK.
Unfortunately, high powered rocketry requires plenty of disposable income. It's just a undeniable fact of life.

Indeed. There's a good reason why when someone does a successful L1 flight the LCO generally says "Welcome to high-power, now give us your wallet" or something along those lines ("remember, mortgages before motors", etc). The costs are not insignificant, and the cost of being a NAR/TRA member is pretty small in comparison to everything else (kits, motors, electronics, etc).

Bat-mite said:

Also, I believe TRA operates under the idea that if you haven't flown HPR in over a year, you have probably forgotten a lot of things. I mean, if I were an RSO, I might be a little worried that someone is Level 3, but hasn't launched a rocket is five years....

But the way around it is to join NAR and TRA. If you need to drop out of the hobby, then rejoin NAR first. They will reinstate your certification. Then rejoin TRA and transfer your cert level over.

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I am really glad to hear this!

I have certified L1 three times. I first certified with NAR in 2000 or 2001. After letting it lapse I re-certified with NAR in 2008 (I didn't realize that I didn't have to re-certify). I also certified L1 with TRA because I was starting to get into research motors (I didn't realize that you could transfer your certification).

Then I had kids... Babies don't do that well in the Central Oregon desert, so I have been more-or-less out of HPR for the last six years. I started back last summer and was thinking I was going to have to certify yet again...

I just rejoined NAR. Do you know anything about the process to transfer my certification to TRA once my NAR L1 is reinstated?

Thanks for the info!

ericclinedinst said:

I think the point is that the goal is to get more people into the hobby but adding fee on top of fee on top of fee is making that cost prohibitive in today's economy. I'll pretty much never be ordering a motor from anywhere online because of this "Hazmat" fee.

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And I think you have a good point. That would be a good subject for starting another thread. My answer was to the OP who was talking about high power certification. Like it or not if you are going to fly high power it is going to cost you something. The point of my post was it really is not any more expensive to have to go through the certification process again after an extended period of inactivity than it would be to just start flying high power again after maintaining your membership in a national organization. The rockets, the motors, and the membership in the national organization (not a local club), are all requirements to fly high power. If you don't have all of these you have no need for certification.

Not to mention joining one of these local clubs is kind of a rip off. Especially anywhere that has moderately bad weather. Launches get skipped with no makeup date. Bust. Waste of money.

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I would suggest that your local club review their dues structure or you scout around for another club if you are paying $50 a year with no benefits. I agree that is a rip off. Don't know where you are but I am a member of three local clubs. I use the term local to describe a drive of an hour and a half to reach any of the fields we fly on. Two of these clubs cost me $10 a year. The other one is free but we pay launch fees at every launch. If you don't fly you don't pay. This seems reasonable to me and all three clubs have no money issues.

JoeG said:

And I think you have a good point. That would be a good subject for starting another thread. My answer was to the OP who was talking about high power certification. Like it or not if you are going to fly high power it is going to cost you something. The point of my post was it really is not any more expensive to have to go through the certification process again after an extended period of inactivity than it would be to just start flying high power again after maintaining your membership in a national organization. The rockets, the motors, and the membership in the national organization (not a local club), are all requirements to fly high power. If you don't have all of these you have no need for certification.



I would suggest that your local club review their dues structure or you scout around for another club if you are paying $50 a year with no benefits. I agree that is a rip off. Don't know where you are but I am a member of three local clubs. I use the term local to describe a drive of an hour and a half to reach any of the fields we fly on. Two of these clubs cost me $10 a year. The other one is free but we pay launch fees at every launch. If you don't fly you don't pay. This seems reasonable to me and all three clubs have no money issues.

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You just need to get a copy or photo of your NAR card to TRA headquarters and they will send you an updated card.

Sorry, I didn't want to start a flame war here.. I just thought it odd that we need to maintain a yearly membership, otherwise revert back to Level 0. And doubly so, that the two main governing bodies have dissimilar regulations. (with the glaring loophole pointed out)

There are some things in life, where a lapse of a year or more doesn't require a re-test, revert back to "square one" (Seems silly that if you amass years of experience, and even some relevant notes of recognition, that it can all be wiped clean with a lapse, forgetting to mail in a payment on time...) And a relatively short lapse. I can understand the need to retest after say, 5 years, or even 2 or 3..


A bit of history: when I first looked at getting my Level 1, I had to (here in Canada):
Join the local club
Join CAR
Join MAAC (for insurance, this is the 'Canadian model aircraft insurance' company, AMA in US if I recall. CAR didn't have insurance, but we still needed to register with them)
and pay a launch fee at each launch event..

And there were only a handful of launches by said club; 6-8 per year. This is the local club, which is just over an hour's drive. The next club is a 2 hr drive, and anything after that is pushing 5+hrs driving times..

So, the justification, the commitment to launch the J or K once or twice a year...

The only change to day is that I don't need my MAAC (but I have it anyway for my R/C flying).. And I have a much better paying job!

ericclinedinst said:

What you're missing is the fact that to get l1 l2 and l3 certifications they nickel and dime you to death to get there. Join local club... pay $50 dues (yearly). Join NAR... pay $55 dues (yearly). Buy hp cert rocket $22.50 (estes psII)- $xxx.xx. Buy motor. Blah blah blah. Some people are lucky to even be able to have the money to buy a $10 rocket and have the money to finish and buy motors to fly it in their back yard. Much less pay some club/organization $100s of dollars ever year just to have the 'privilege' of being able to fire off a rocket.

Stuff ads up for us poor folk. Half the people in this post that say 'money is no big deal. Support the hobby. Blah blah. We are supporting it by buying a rocket in the first place. Sorry we don't all make close to a six figure income to be able to give to every Tom, Dick, and Harry along the way.

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High Power is not a hobby for the poor- especially at L2 and much more so at L3. Fly where you are financially comfortable- know one says you need to be a L2 or L3 to have fun or to be a knowledgeable flyer.

Never said it should be for the poor. But it shouldn't be a rip off either. Read the last guys post. This is my point. Just because you don't drive for a year doesn't mean you forget how to drive a car. The paying to play every year or lose your certification seems like a cop out and a way to generate unnecessary revenue to me.

JoeG said:

You just need to get a copy or photo of your NAR card to TRA headquarters and they will send you an updated card.

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When you fill out the TRA membership paperwork, I believe there is a box to check if you are NAR certified, ans as stated above, just include a copy of your active NAR card.

ericclinedinst said:

Never said it should be for the poor. But it shouldn't be a rip off either. Read the last guys post. This is my point. Just because you don't drive for a year doesn't mean you forget how to drive a car. The paying to play every year or lose your certification seems like a cop out and a way to generate unnecessary revenue to me.

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So write a letter to TRA and complain. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Obviously you are in the minority; if everyone felt that club memberships were a ripoff, there would be no more clubs. Clubs are made up of members, and members have to vote on and agree with the bylaws, including the fees.

If it isn't your cup of tea, that's fine. I, for one, would get an extra job cleaning toilets before I would give up my NAR or TRA memberships. To each his own.

I'll spend a few moments talking about the dues I pay, and where that $ goes. I just got elected as an officer of the local club, and it really opened my eyes. My local club:

• Negotiates with the BLM for a launch site. Finding a launch site suitable for HPR flying is a non-trivial exercise!
• Provides all of the launch equipment. Usually 16 LPR and 4 HPR stations, but it's expandable. And it wears out - we need to replace some of ours.
• Files the FAA waiver
• Coordinates the launches with the National organizations for insurance purposes. For us, that's both NAR and Tripoli.
• Arranges for a porta-potty at our launches. Our single biggest expense at most launches. The nearest restrooms are 5+ miles up a dirt road.
• Hosts a 4 day launch once per year (Hellfire) on the salt flats
• Etc.

In my book, 20USD isn't very much for the services the club provides.

Paying my dues to the national organization:

• Gets me $5M in liability insurance
• Helps provide $250 section grants, available to most sections
• Supports national events like TARC and NARAM
• Supports an organization that keeps the Federal government from regulating our sport - we regulate ourselves
• Pays the legal bills when said organization waged a multi-year legal battle with the AFT over ammonium perchlorage

With the fees per launch, different clubs have different arrangements with the landowners. For example, the BLM charges $5 per head at some launches. That's just the cost of using their land. Don't like it, but that's their business model. Trying to find a launch site as a private individual is almost impossible. So many municipalities have ordinances against it.

Again, nobody is getting rich on any of this. Any dues paid to a club go back to the members. Any dues paid to a national organization go back to the members.

Thanks, Bill. I know MDRA also supports STEM activities, raises money for charities, and negotiates with power companies, tree climbers, etc. to help members recover lost rockets. And posts flight videos to a YouTube channel.

dr wogz said:

Sorry, I didn't want to start a flame war here.. I just thought it odd that we need to maintain a yearly membership, otherwise revert back to Level 0. And doubly so, that the two main governing bodies have dissimilar regulations. (with the glaring loophole pointed out)

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I don't see this as a flame war. I can see some good points on both sides.

There are some things in life, where a lapse of a year or more doesn't require a re-test, revert back to "square one" (Seems silly that if you amass years of experience, and even some relevant notes of recognition, that it can all be wiped clean with a lapse, forgetting to mail in a payment on time...) And a relatively short lapse. I can understand the need to retest after say, 5 years, or even 2 or 3..

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Once you agree that re-testing may be necessary after 2, 3 or 5 years then any time limit is going to be arbitrary. Then the only question is, "How long?" Right now for Tripoli and CAR it's one year. Honestly, if you have forgotten to renew your membership for more than one year you haven't been very active in high power or you would have had to show your card to someone and it would have been pointed out to you.

Here in Ohio if your driver's license expires for more than 6 months you have to retake the test even if you have been driving for fifty years and were a licensed driver in organized professional racing. Not saying that's right. Just that's the way it is.

Just thinking out loud here. If there have been circumstances, financial or otherwise, that have been the reason not to renew I can understand that. Maybe there should be an associate membership that allows you to maintain your certification level at a greatly reduced cost without being allowed to fly high power until you reinstate your full membership and have an interview with a current TRA L3/CAR L4 flyer, for example, that could assess your competency before turning you loose with high power motors. Maybe even be there with you for your first couple of high power launches to "assist".

A bit of history: when I first looked at getting my Level 1, I had to (here in Canada):
Join the local club
Join CAR
Join MAAC (for insurance, this is the 'Canadian model aircraft insurance' company, AMA in US if I recall. CAR didn't have insurance, but we still needed to register with them)
and pay a launch fee at each launch event..

And there were only a handful of launches by said club; 6-8 per year. This is the local club, which is just over an hour's drive. The next club is a 2 hr drive, and anything after that is pushing 5+hrs driving times..

So, the justification, the commitment to launch the J or K once or twice a year...

The only change to day is that I don't need my MAAC (but I have it anyway for my R/C flying).. And I have a much better paying job!

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I understand. You really need to be dedicated to be a rocketeer in Canada. Here in the US there is no requirement to be a member of a local club. I have helped many people get certified L1 and L2 (the equivalent to your L1, L2, L3) through NAR without them being members of a local section just the national organization.

I am a forty year member of the AMA here but I believe its insurance stops with model rocketry and does not cover the realm of high power. I could be mistaken.

I think that's part of the point. Just because you can't support 7473882 clubs financially every single year it doesn't mean you become inept at high power rocketry. Or if a person gets busy with life (has a child, illness, or one of the other million things life throws at you) that doesn't mean you should have to start from square one again.

Bat-mite said:

So write a letter to TRA and complain. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Obviously you are in the minority

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Well, as an American in NAR I have nothing to complain about. I do see some silliness here, though. The fact that NAR and Tripoli differ on retaining certification is a little ridiculous. Either both should, or neither should. If they can align on impulse levels and respect certification from each other, they should figure out how to close this loophole. The CAR bit about requiring a local club membership seems totally bogus. What if you live out in the Saskatchewan on acres of your own land with no big town for hundreds of miles? They are encouraging you to go lone wolf, which is bad news for the hobby.

My guess is that if there are these kinds of complaints, they aren't making their way to the BODs of the clubs. If changes to bylaws are desired by the majority of members, then they will happen. I think most people join up, pay their dues, complain about what they don't like, and that's the end of it. People with complaints should get involved and have things brought up for a vote. Welcome to democracy!

Bat-mite said:

My guess is that if there are these kinds of complaints, they aren't making their way to the BODs of the clubs. If changes to bylaws are desired by the majority of members, then they will happen. I think most people join up, pay their dues, complain about what they don't like, and that's the end of it. People with complaints should get involved and have things brought up for a vote. Welcome to democracy!

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Bro. We can't even get a launch to happen with the Cambridge Rocketry Club.... much less a vote on anything. Lol.

https://www.cambridgerocketclub.org/

They want $25 out of you for dues but haven't had a launch since August. Plus like stated before. Can't launch unless you're a member of CAR and MAAC also. So you're looking at $125-150 before you even launch a lpr or mpr. Much less a hpr

#ripoff

Bat-mite said:

My guess is that if there are these kinds of complaints, they aren't making their way to the BODs of the clubs. If changes to bylaws are desired by the majority of members, then they will happen. I think most people join up, pay their dues, complain about what they don't like, and that's the end of it. People with complaints should get involved and have things brought up for a vote. Welcome to democracy!

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Right with you! I am fighting my own certification battles at the moment; these particular issues are smaller in my mind.

ericclinedinst said:

They want $25 out of you for dues but haven't had a launch since August. Plus like stated before. Can't launch unless you're a member of CAR and MAAC also. So you're looking at $125-150 before you even launch a lpr or mpr. Much less a hpr

#ripoff

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Yeah, seems redundant that you need both MAAC & CAR. As stated, you used to require MAAC because CAR had no insurance.. Unless the club needs to be affiliated with either NRA or TRA for valid insurance (and that again renders CAR kinda obsolete..)

Just figured it all out

Cambridge Rocket Club $25 (hasn't had a launch since July)
MAAC $95
CAR $65

So right off the top you're out $185 to launch with the local club 5 times a year if you're lucky.