Should I Keep Using Estes E's?

I sometimes use black powder E9's in a few of my rockets, but the last two times I have used them they both CATO'd. I have heard rumors about E12's exploding less often, but I'm not sure if they are true. Should I try E12's or switch to composites?

E-12's are supposedly worse. The only saving grace is that Estes takes pretty good care of you if they CATO, but both CATO...a lot. I use Aerotech E15's any more. Of course these motors are prone to inaccurate delay charges. I lawndarted a rocket recently because an E15-7 ended up being more like an E15-15.

No E12's are not much better thn E9's. it is kinda funny D12's work fine and the 29mm E and F's are fairly reliable and until a year or so the 24mm had a good reputation. I have seen so many catos I quit carrying them

I like the Estes E motors and will keep using them. I've never had a Cato with one, but I did attend a launch where there were a lot of catos on both E9 and E12 motors. The unique thing about that launch is it was colder than usual. Try to keep them room temp, and you'll have better luck. Also, extreme temperature cycling (like storage in a hot/cold garage) can weaken the motr's integrity and lead to catos. Being dropped and banged around is another cause. And there are also known bad batches, so check for bad date codes.

If you do have a Cato, contact Estes. The motors are under warranty, so you'll get a replacement, and if it destroyed an Estes rocket, you'll probably get a replacement kit.

And even if you don't give up on bp motors, definitely try the Aerotech composite E motors. The E20 motors that come in a 2-pack are great!

mrf said:

I sometimes use black powder E9's in a few of my rockets, but the last two times I have used them they both CATO'd. I have heard rumors about E12's exploding less often, but I'm not sure if they are true. Should I try E12's or switch to composites?

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Come to the Dark Side !

What made me make the switch, are reloads are less expensive, I just checked HobbyTown, a pack of 3 Estes E9 motors is $23?!

Holy crap, you can buy almost -6- Aerotech E sized reloads for that! The E18's are one of my favorites

Granted, you have to buy the 24/40 case, but it will pay for itself quickly, and the APCP is sooo much fun (powerful, noisy, smoky) compared to BP.

I don't always fly E motors, but when I do, I prefer Aerotech E20-7Ws. Stay dorky, my friends.

It's a little like playing Russian Roulette. I mean, for every bullet there are five empty chambers....

BTW, don't play against Thirsty Barbarian. :wink:

McKailas Dad said:

Come to the Dark Side !

What made me make the switch, are reloads are less expensive, I just checked HobbyTown, a pack of 3 Estes E9 motors is $23?!

Holy crap, you can buy almost -6- Aerotech E sized reloads for that! The E18's are one of my favorites

Granted, you have to buy the 24/40 case, but it will pay for itself quickly, and the APCP is sooo much fun (powerful, noisy, smoky) compared to BP.

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E20's retail for about $22.00 some vendor I know has them under $19.00 not much price difference and it is almost a full E

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I like the Estes E motors and will keep using them. I've never had a Cato with one, but I did attend a launch where there were a lot of catos on both E9 and E12 motors. The unique thing about that launch is it was colder than usual. Try to keep them room temp, and you'll have better luck. Also, extreme temperature cycling (like storage in a hot/cold garage) can weaken the motr's integrity and lead to catos. Being dropped and banged around is another cause. And there are also known bad batches, so check for bad date codes.

If you do have a Cato, contact Estes. The motors are under warranty, so you'll get a replacement, and if it destroyed an Estes rocket, you'll probably get a replacement kit.

And even if you don't give up on bp motors, definitely try the Aerotech composite E motors. The E20 motors that come in a 2-pack are great!

Click to expand...

I too enjoy the Estes 24mm E (and E-F 29mm) . They are perfect for certain applications and I have never had a problem-CATO or otherwise.

I've never used an Estes black powder E motor of either thrust curve, but knowing the thrust curve of both and the styles of models I build explains why.
I'm glad that the one type of motors I have zero need for is the one that seems to be the most problematic.
I might spend a couple months on a model, or be really proud of some little detail that came out nice.
I don't know how I would react to a CATO.
I never even had one back when I was 8 to 14 and was big into rockets, with hundreds of launches under my belt from the 13mm up to the 24mm D's. My Mom used to get me the bulk packs of the 18mm motors and the builders sets that came with parts. I was very childish in my techniques, but they all but one flew straight, and aside from shock cord failures and burning up the chute's from running out of wadding and doing silly stuff like using grass instead of wadding....:lol:
I had no one to show me or fly with, so I learned by doing.
Even then I had a DRT that flew many times on D's.
One day, there were low clouds in the Field, which was right across the street from our house.
I geared up and took her out to launch.
Back then I was even a member of some sort of Estes Club and the NAR, and actually wrote out range cards for my flights, something I totally neglect nowadays in favor of Video and Pictures.
I launched her right into a low cloud and she never came out.:eyepop:
I actually happen to have a picture of her that I keep right here on my computer desk. An actual photograph on paper manufactured by Kodak.
Of course I took a digital picture of my real picture, even though in hindsight I could have just scanned it.




Either way, I don't want to have to look at date codes or screw around when it's time to fly, and I don't need what they have to offer, so I'm thankful for that.

You can be happy with going from D12 to Composites, and save yourself the headache of risking a CATO.

I won't touch them with an 11 foot pole.

Who can be 'sure' they weren't 'temp cycled' in the shipping containers from Estes to wherever you bought them? What does 'temp cycling' even really mean? They're surely not kept at room temp rolling in the truck to the distributor, or rolling in the truck to your store's warehouse, or rolling in the truck to your store.

Don't subject them to dropping or any other shock. What does that mean, too? Ever seen how trucks are stacked? How are you going to be sure that Dudley or Dora Shelfstocker didn't drop them while putting them on the peg at your store?

D and below sizes don't seem to have the same problem, either with temp or shock, so I'm given to believe that there's either a systemic problem in manufacture above D size, or that D is the limit of a high degree of reliability for BP motors.

So what if Estses will replace your rocket. They gonna put it together for you and pay for your paint and glue and time?

So what if Estes will replace Catos? Who needs more mystery grenades?

I still contend that the BEST WARRANTY and CUSTOMER SERVICE is NEVER HAVING TO CALL AND USE THE WARRANTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a bad day at the launch one day with Estes E9s. It's explained in my signature. I filed reports, and got the round and round with Estes. The replacements are still sitting in the shipping box , and one day when I wanna play Rocket Russian Roulette, I'll try them again.

Handling shock does not cause a cato. You would need to lay the motor flat and hit it with a hammer to cause a cato. Proven by extensive R&D testing.

If you fear the Estes 24mm E then simply use the Estes 29mm E16 or F15.

shreadvector said:

Handling shock does not cause a cato. You would need to lay the motor flat and hit it with a hammer to cause a cato. Proven by extensive R&D testing.

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Then let's get the word out so people will stop spreading that 'possible cause' far and wide as an excuse for unreliable performance.

One thing I have done with E-9's is to paint thin CA around the seam of the clay nozzle and the wall of the motor. When these motors temperature cycle the clay nozzle shrinks with the cold weather more than the paper tube, weakening the connection and causing the nozzle to blow off. I reason that CA will fill any gap created. My CATOs have since been relegated to the clay cap over the ejection charge going off.

I've never had trouble with D's.

So far I've never had any problems with the Estes 24mm E motors. I've shot several E9's both single and in clusters and 1 of the E12's without incident. The only failure I have seen with E9's is a spit nozzle which caused the motor to burn like a road flare on the pad.

The only Estes E motors I had CATO on me were some E15's but those were WAY more CATO prone than the E9 or E12. The failure rate of these motors was so high that Estes quit producing them after only about a year or so.

With that being said, AT 24mm reloads are awesome too. The 24/40 casing which is the same size as the Estes C11/D12 and accommodates reloads ranging from the D9W up to the awesome F39T. There is also the 24/60 casing which is the same length as the Estes E9/E12 and accommodates the F35W which is currently the only reload available for the casing but more are supposedly in the works. IIRC, an F60R was mentioned. That should be one awesome motor.

I had great luck with them (mostly E9s) a long time. If I'd memorized and taken heed of the date code 06 28 11 I'd still have perfect record. They're still out there. Warranty was very generous, especially considering one of the damaged rockets has reusable parts and the other could be repaired and wouldn't have been flown anyway if it weren't for Science. But I would have been happy enough to just keep flying my old rocket successfully too, more so in the short term but it will kind of pay off.

Just had an E9 (my second ever) CATO and take a rocket with it today. I'll fill out a MESS report and send it in. For what it's worth, I did put up 6 more on E9's from different lots without incident.

Just finished making my son's SuperNeon XL. Upgraded the MMT to 29mm, and used the AT hobbyline 40/120 case with their E23-5 motor. Great flight, and my kid was HAPPY!

Barkley said:

Just finished making my son's SuperNeon XL. Upgraded the MMT to 29mm, and used the AT hobbyline 40/120 case with their E23-5 motor. Great flight, and my kid was HAPPY!

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Ironic timing, I think it was an Estes E9 that 'my modded to 29mm' Neon...didn't do well. Though I can not -conclusively- blame the motor.

Barkley, did you add any nose weight? Mine was built non-stock and pre-OpenRocket...to reverse engineer it now would be difficult.

One of our club members built a special rocket just to fly E 9s with bad date codes or questionable storage.

MALBAR 70 said:

One of our club members built a special rocket just to fly E 9s with bad date codes or questionable storage.

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What...a 6 layer wrapped Kevlar fin can? Lol

I have never flown an E9 and I never will. I love watching them fly but the numbers are on the wrong side of what I like to risk. At local launches, after every cato I call out, what motor was that. The answer is usually the same. Not every E9 will cato, but nearly every cato I see is an E9.

That said, maybe my opinion is a moot point because I do not keep any 24mm rockets around, favoring 18mm and 29mm.

EeebeeE said:

One thing I have done with E-9's is to paint thin CA around the seam of the clay nozzle and the wall of the motor. When these motors temperature cycle the clay nozzle shrinks with the cold weather more than the paper tube, weakening the connection and causing the nozzle to blow off. I reason that CA will fill any gap created. My CATOs have since been relegated to the clay cap over the ejection charge going off.

I've never had trouble with D's.

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Thin CA generates a lot heat as it absorbs into things that are porous. Are you sure it is safe?
It probably is, but I just had to mention it.

I'm also a big fan of the 24/40 RMS. I've never had a failure. They do take extra time to prep, but I've got two of the
M, so I'll prep both the night before a launch and get a little jump start on launching with them.

I'm not a fan of the D reloads for them, I just don't see the need. I'd rather just use an Estes D12. But I have all the E and F reloads and enjoy the variety.

My avatar photo sums up my feelings on E9's :wink:
That said , I did have a G40 CATO in my Argent on its 3rd or 4th flight.
Estes made it right, but it still sucked.

Barkley said:

Just finished making my son's SuperNeon XL. Upgraded the MMT to 29mm, and used the AT hobbyline 40/120 case with their E23-5 motor. Great flight, and my kid was HAPPY!

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I flew one yesterday on an F44-8... it screams off the pad. No need to adapt the motor mount for that motor either.

EeebeeE said:

One thing I have done with E-9's is to paint thin CA around the seam of the clay nozzle and the wall of the motor. When these motors temperature cycle the clay nozzle shrinks with the cold weather more than the paper tube, weakening the connection and causing the nozzle to blow off. I reason that CA will fill any gap created. My CATOs have since been relegated to the clay cap over the ejection charge going off.

I've never had trouble with D's.

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I have done that on older Estes D12s that might have had a temp cycle or three on them, and, back in the day, on the very old Estes 24mm E15s that used to CATO badly. Never had one CATO that I did that to.....knock on wood.

I have also CAed the clay cap over the ejection charge and never had an issue or a CATO from that end, either. I just do the edge of the clay cap to the tube and leave the middle 3/8" or 1/2" of the cap alone.

In my opinion, doing that is not a motor modification, but others opinions may vary.

It never gets more than faintly warm to the touch when the clay is coated in thin CA, so zero worries about it setting anything off.

It would interesting to try the CA application process to some E engines from the acknowledged bad date ranges and see if it helps them. Build some cheap sacrificial rockets and let them fly. With the increasing frequency of these catos there is obviously something going on.

McKailas Dad said:

Ironic timing, I think it was an Estes E9 that 'my modded to 29mm' Neon...didn't do well. Though I can not -conclusively- blame the motor.

Barkley, did you add any nose weight? Mine was built non-stock and pre-OpenRocket...to reverse engineer it now would be difficult.

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My stock plastic NC is 29 grams, and when that's plugged into OR it lifts the CG significantly. No nose weight was necessary.

Personal stats (I keep close records). I do not fly in a vacuum, I would say that my experiences are consistent with what I've seen in the field from others as well in my region.

43 E9's flown, 1 Cato
4 E12's flown, 1 Cato

The E9's I have are primarily from the initial run after they first came out. I trust them greatly, enough to have clustered them (7 in a Stovi, 4 airstarted in a Heavy Duty Beauty) on several occasions. The E12's I trust far less.

For those commenting on cold weather and handling, I too have seen far more 24mm BP motors CATO in the colder weather....we fly in Wisconsin winters where temps may be near or below 0F. Regarding handling, the E9's that I've enjoyed tremendously were stored mostly "behind the counter" at a local shop, whereas the E12's that I've tried have been bounced around in a traveling trailer that goes through a lot of temperature cycling....say what you will, but I think this environment does have some impact on the reliability of the BP motors riding along.

-Eric-