SuperNeon XL and OpenRocket

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Barkley

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My son got an Estes Super Neon XL for Christmas, and I'm putting it together... but am wondering about an upgraded motor mount. I figure it should have a 29mm, no? Given that I wanted to keep things stable I started to take a stab at it in OR, and got the message "Tube Fin support is experimental." So I guess my questions are twofold: (1) does anyone have a OR file for the SuperNeon that they have confidence in, and (2) how can I be certain an upgraded motor (and more weight aft) won't turn this thing into something that makes everyone in the flight line duck?

EDIT - how to I move this to the mid power section? I'm proposing a 29mm mmt, but I'm not proposing going all the way to an H...
 
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You may want to whisper in K'teshs ear on that one, he seems to be one of the OpenRocket masters.

I would build it with a 29mm mount. You can always use a motor adaptor to use 24mm. I'm not sure of the 'stock' stability factor, but it is a rather long-ish rocket. To balance out the CP, a little bit of nose weight could be added, but may not be necessary.

I built mine with a 29mm, but sadly it's first flight did not go well. It ended up being rather heavy, and did not fly well on an E sized BP motor. Not sure exactly what happened, but it buckled just above the tube fins at around 100'. I have yet to repair it.

Here's some pics of it anyway :)

The 29mm mount...

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1454911455.086242.jpg

And it's super sweet neon paint job..

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1454911677.769074.jpg

Dang, I really gotta fix that thing!!!

Edit- Hmm, I must be getting worse with my CRS...apparently I -did- repair it.

Wait, what was the question?!
 
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You may want build the current model with stock 24mm motor mount and limit yourself to E20s and E30s. No additional nose weight required and it will last until you CATO or lose it.

A 29mm version is best made with a heavier tubing such as LOC Precision 38mm motor mount tubing and a 29mm motor mount. Constructed from these materials, you will be able put it up on pretty much any Mid Power 29mm motor. Even a baby H but it will go close to or over 2000 feet. Add nose weight as needed to get the rocket to balance just above the standard length and positioned launch lug. Fishing weights work well and you can simply tie them to the shock cord at the nose cone.

BTW, upgrade your launch lug, shock cord, a parachute.
 
I made mine with a removable/replaceable baffle, and set up as a zipperless design that -could- have added too much weight to the bottom end?

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1454912753.643615.jpg

Baffle removed...

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1454913022.011020.jpg

I'll have to get this thing back together, and try a bigger motor!

Thanks for reminding me I had this :p
 
My son got an Estes Super Neon XL for Christmas, and I'm putting it together... but am wondering about an upgraded motor mount. I figure it should have a 29mm, no? Given that I wanted to keep things stable I started to take a stab at it in OR, and got the message "Tube Fin support is experimental." So I guess my questions are twofold: (1) does anyone have a OR file for the SuperNeon that they have confidence in, and (2) how can I be certain an upgraded motor (and more weight aft) won't turn this thing into something that makes everyone in the flight line duck?

EDIT - how to I move this to the mid power section? I'm proposing a 29mm mmt, but I'm not proposing going all the way to an H...

You may want to whisper in K'teshs ear on that one, he seems to be one of the OpenRocket masters.

I can neither confirm nor deny how the SNXL will perform in OR or out in the field.

Before I could dream of simming it, I need a good scan of the instructions (probably easily found on the Estes website), and the fins. I'd also need to know what nosecone it came with (I'd guess a PNC-60AH) unless this was one that was kitted before or after the world shortage in balsa. The body tube lengths are also a must have. It'd be useful to know what the stock parachute is (in inches).

Of course with all that, anybody would be able to sim it.
 
stock chute is 24", 'fins'(tubes) are 5.75" long(bt60). lower body is 11.187", upper body is 18". not sure which plastic cone they are using but it is approx. 6.75" long ogive w/ rounded tip(be a pretty good match for an upscale goblin). didn't use the balsa fins on mine. OR is probably reasonably close if it tells you that a D12-3 or E18-4 are good choices for delay times.
Rex
 
After checking out the Estes website, and the .pdf of the instructions, I went with a PNC-60AH nosecone (I don't think it ever shipped with the balsa one, or if it did, I don't remember ever seeing it [EDIT] Apparently it did come with a balsa nosecone... read below [/EDIT]). Used the dimensions provided by the instructions (Actual measurements may be slightly different than what the instructions state).

The fins are a GUESS ONLY. I didn't have a dimensional drawing to measure from (nor the thickness). I wanted to do the decals, but I couldn't find the font. Such is life.



To apply the balsa fins to the tube fins I used a phantom body tube that was the diameter of 3x1.637" (4.911"). This, and the phantom body tube for the engine hook explain some of the warning messages. Oh, and to get the "paint" on the inside of the tube fins. I used internal body tubes (radially offset) and colored them.

View attachment Estes Super Neon XL (2425) (First Test).ork
 
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Mines got a balsa NC. I'm guessing it to be from 4-5 years ago though...

Geeze, what did that take you, like 3 minutes??!

(Bowing) "We are not worthy!!"

I guess, if you can't build em :( , at least you can design them :)


Thank you!
 
Mines got a balsa NC. I'm guessing it to be from 4-5 years ago though...

I stand corrected. I've never seen the Balsa Nose Cone (PN 73004). So, I can't sim it properly. To get them right I really need a sample... OR a REALLY good image with a scale (most images will not suffice).

Geeze, what did that take you, like 3 minutes??!

(Bowing) "We are not worthy!!"

I guess, if you can't build em :( , at least you can design them :)


Thank you!

Glad you like it.

More like an hour and a half... Most of that was futzing with the "paint" and "decals" though.

Now if you can get me a scan of the fins (or a really good drawing with the X/Y coordinates of the points), I'd be able to tweak it for a more accurate appearance. Keep in mind though, that OR really doesn't like tube fins, and it HATES my phantom body tubes, so all this really is good for is the look of the rocket, and not the expected performance.

Gotta say though, I'm really pleased with the engine hook detail... (though it did require a slight tweak, and the .ork has been corrected for that).





Send Rockets, Cash, and Interpreters! :wink:
 
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An hour and a half?! I didn't realize they offered a PhD in OR!

Mines not exactly stock anymore. I hogged the shoulder out to put in some T-nuts, and a chunk of Kevlar, and it's painted, but this one is 20.7 grams.

ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1454933996.668714.jpg

While I'm not positive, I think -most- people leave the fins off, and just use the tubes.


Heck, I'd send you a scale! That's most likely where it's from anyway!
 
An hour and a half?! I didn't realize they offered a PhD in OR!

Mines not exactly stock anymore. I hogged the shoulder out to put in some T-nuts, and a chunk of Kevlar, and it's painted, but this one is 20.7 grams.

View attachment 281870

While I'm not positive, I think -most- people leave the fins off, and just use the tubes.


Heck, I'd send you a scale! That's most likely where it's from anyway!


Don't suppose you'd do one for the OP? He kinda asked about stability with a 29mm.

Barkley, I hope you're reading this :)


Btw, Jim, that hook is the icing on the cake! Nice touch! Dare I say...off the hook?! :p
 
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An hour and a half?! I didn't realize they offered a PhD in OR!

Mines not exactly stock anymore. I hogged the shoulder out to put in some T-nuts, and a chunk of Kevlar, and it's painted, but this one is 20.7 grams.

View attachment 281870

While I'm not positive, I think -most- people leave the fins off, and just use the tubes.


Heck, I'd send you a scale! That's most likely where it's from anyway!


Don't suppose you'd do one for the OP? He kinda asked about stability with a 29mm.

Barkley, I hope you're reading this
smile.png

LOL

The scale I was referring to was something that clearly showed a profile with measurements... such as where the shape changes from one to another... A good dimensional drawing would likely work.

I'm working on my 2nd PhD in OR now. Proof of a life misspent. :wink:

I'll let the OP work up the 29mm version. I don't know what he has for parts to use for it (retainers, motor tubes, CR's, etc...). Won't be hard for him though, the "hard" work has been done.
 
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K'Tesh..... just WOW. THANK YOU.

Sadly the fins are already mounted on the tubefins so it's tough to get a good 2D pic of them. Root is 4.2cm, Leading edge is 6.5 cm, Trailing edge is 3.5cm, outer edge is 3.0 cm. My NC is plastic.
 
K'Tesh..... just WOW. THANK YOU.

Sadly the fins are already mounted on the tubefins so it's tough to get a good 2D pic of them. Root is 4.2cm, Leading edge is 6.5 cm, Trailing edge is 3.5cm, outer edge is 3.0 cm. My NC is plastic.

Glad to help.

When it comes to doing fins in OR, having the root length is nice, but really the best way to do it (barring curved shapes) is by plotting it using X/Y coordinates. Unfortunately OR doesn't allow you to plug in values for leading edge, trailing edge, tip edge, and height. So, X/Y is all you've got unless you've got a good understanding of trapezoidal fins (which still eludes me (I like freeform much better)).

Oh, how thick are the fins? I was guessing 1/8", but I could be wrong.
 
Back to the Original Post... You *could* take the sim I've cooked up, and compare it to the CG of the built rocket with the stock motor mount just slid in place (don't forget to add the motor), and see how the file compares to the actual rocket. Next modify the sim to reflect what you intend to do with the 29mm motor, and compare that to the rocket with the 29mm motor mount (and motor). If the sims match up well, you've got a way of feeling that much more confident in the file's accuracy on predicting your stability.

If you can get the CG of the rocket with stock motor mount and the 29mm motor mount to match up precisely (by adding nose weight), you should be golden.

When it comes to the CP of tube fins on the other hand. I got nothing.

I hope that this makes sense to people... I am really tired after yesterday's fireworks, and late night computer time.
 
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Gotta say though, I'm really pleased with the engine hook detail...

:jaw:

I saw that and uttered a few appreciative expletives. Well done sir, you are a deranged OR genius.

[edit] And I just noticed the rounded nose cone... (more expletives)
 
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Hey K'Tesh, did you need to do anything special to get the color to show inside the tube fins? I'm finding that the insides of the tube fins show as brown no matter what I do in a design I'm working on.
 
Hey K'Tesh, did you need to do anything special to get the color to show inside the tube fins? I'm finding that the insides of the tube fins show as brown no matter what I do in a design I'm working on.

I mentioned it in post #7.

Yes, I did do something special. Did you download the .ork file? Check out all those internal body tubes (and their radial offsets).
 
I mentioned it in post #7.

Yes, I did do something special. Did you download the .ork file? Check out all those internal body tubes (and their radial offsets).

More sorcery! :eyepop:

I think I was so blinded by the engine hook that I missed most of the other stuff in this thread. I just downloaded the file, and had a look... So *that's* where the radial offset stuff is, off in it's own tab. I never could find those parameters when I looked before, because I was looking in the "General" tab. That makes some things possible that otherwise wouldn't be (visually at least, since offset tubes don't sim apparently). Why the tube fins don't color on the inside is mysterious.

Anyway: cool. :cool:
 
I want to re-do this.

Would someone get me a scan of the fins w/a ruler for this? Root edge if possible, if it's in the matrix, it's just as good, but takes longer (due to having to print the image).

Decals too Please!
 
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You may want build the current model with stock 24mm motor mount and limit yourself to E20s and E30s. No additional nose weight required and it will last until you CATO or lose it.

A 29mm version is best made with a heavier tubing such as LOC Precision 38mm motor mount tubing and a 29mm motor mount. Constructed from these materials, you will be able put it up on pretty much any Mid Power 29mm motor. Even a baby H but it will go close to or over 2000 feet. Add nose weight as needed to get the rocket to balance just above the standard length and positioned launch lug. Fishing weights work well and you can simply tie them to the shock cord at the nose cone.

BTW, upgrade your launch lug, shock cord, a parachute.

I launched this one, as did a friend with a matching kit at the last SARG launch on the F44-8. Both kits were stock and they held, but I don't think I'd trust it for much more acceleration than that, just to much mass out back. (Junk in the trunk so to speak) and as Kong notes, the tubing is pretty thin.
 
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