Why is the [Restricted]Research thread only allowed to US members?
- Thread starter mpitfield
- Start date
Help Support The Rocketry Forum:
- Status
Agreed. I would like to learn that was as well. I plan to do some flying on the US side as well. I used to go to launches in WA every month. Once that field went away, I haven't been back. That needs to change.
There are many more opportunities to fly in WA and OR. I wonder if you got the appropriate paperwork, (Authorized Alien etc.) if TRF would allow a Canadian to join the section? After all, with that paperwork you would be authorized to handle explosives in the US. You'd be allowed to mix and fly so whay not?
rharshberger
Well-Known Member
Now that's just silly...The Triumph was made in England, not Canada.
Yes...i know..I'll behave now
Triumph the band...."Lay it on the Line" one of my all time favs., and well Rush..pure awesomeness.
McKailas Dad
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2010
- Messages
- 1,577
- Reaction score
- 2
I figured somebody would give me a hard time on that
Part of the reason I didn't ask if Saga still made gaming systems! Huh?!
But...Rush...Most certainly!
I didn't want to insult the by band making a Limbaugh joke.
Last edited:
rharshberger
Well-Known Member
I figured somebody would give me a hard time on that
Part of the reason I didn't ask if Saga still made gaming systems! Huh?!
But...Rush...Most certainly!
I didn't want to insult the by band making a Limbaugh joke.
I cannot tell a lie...I couldn't resist
dr wogz
Fly caster
April Wine over Rush...
tmacklin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,215
- Reaction score
- 18
Has any U.S. Citizen ever been charged, indicted, tried or convicted for violation of ITAR in connection with hobby rocketry? Is viewing "how to" videos such as those produced by Richard Nakka or James Yawn illegal in Canada? What about books openly sold by such authors as David Sleeter, Dr. Terry McCreary or John Wickman? Should these be on the prohibited list?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations#Exemptions_and_treaties
Let the book burning commence!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations#Exemptions_and_treaties
Let the book burning commence!
And Rik Emmett is the greatest guitarist of all time. Rock, jazz, classical, shredding ... he can do it all to perfection. And a nice guy, to boot. Even though he has that funny McKenzie bothers accent....
bobkrech
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2009
- Messages
- 8,352
- Reaction score
- 55
Did you read your own reference? ITAR is a US law.
In short it applies all US Government employees and US government contractors, domestic and foreign, and US corporations with domestic and foreign facilities, and any US persons and any foreign nationals who are involved in the design, manufacturing, sales and distribution of US munitions or US munitions technology. ITAR does not normally apply to foreign nationals outside the US because it is a US law, and US law is not normally enforceable outside the US, however US ITAR laws do apply to DoD contractors who are non-US companies operated by non-US citizens outside the US.
ITAR laws do not have to make sense, nor be well defined. No DoD employees or contactors want to be brought up on ITAR charges, even if they are unfounded, as the presumption is that you are guilty unless you can prove you are innocent. That's why we have the restrictions on access to the TRF Research Forum.
Bob
tmacklin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,215
- Reaction score
- 18
I understand that it is law, but that fact does not address my question about how this law has impacted upon regular U. S. citizens activities such as those who are into "research rocketry" and who engage in the free exchange of ideas and technology.
RocketryBill
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2015
- Messages
- 222
- Reaction score
- 0
First of all, Timmy Ho's? Second of all, that's up in Canada, not in the states.
rharshberger
Well-Known Member
Not sure this will help answer the question (or that its even a valid point), but we have many members of this forum who are DoD employees, Government contractor employees, and other employees who fall under the ITAR rules, and rather than run the risk of them being jeopardized, the owners of TRF made the decision to try and keep them from being put into that position, free exchange of ideas or not, anything those individuals might post could send them to face the justice system such that it is.
there are no less than 6 timmy's within 5 minutes of my house, here in the good ole USA.
Hahaha!! Exactly. I have books by David Sleeter, Terry McCreary, and Alan Whitmore.
Like I said, I would love to be able to learn about making motors hands on but the interest is just that. An interest.
I have no desire to stir the pot here BTW. I'm fine with being an alien. :eyepop:
Yes, but I think at least one of them is a moderator and a major contributor to TRF. I respect that.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 3,443
- Reaction score
- 1,322
ITAR and EAR applies to every US citizen, whether they be DOD employees or not. I am not a DOD employee. I work on commercial equipment. But our company works with one in the UK. We have to check everything we say, transmit, share etc to make sure we do not violate ITAR or EAR.
And a note to Tmacklin - a foreigner reading improperly exported data is not covered by ITAR/EAR (but could under espionage), it is the person making the data available that would get prosecuted.
It does get confusing in that the rules do exclude information that is common knowledge or freely available (such as a published book). However, during one of our briefings we were warned that even this is open to interpretation. Say someone improperly posts ITAR controlled data onto the web. One could argue that it is now open data. But if you then reference it on your own web site, you could still be prosecuted for displaying it since it should never have been made available in the first place.
And despite NSA, I doubt the government is able to track every communication to verify everyone is following the rules. And even if they catch some infractions, it may not be worthwhile to prosecute. How often does someone get pulled over for making a lane change without first signalling with their directional? You may get away with it most times, but you could also run into a police officer who still needs to make "quota"
And on a slightly different note, but somewhat related to how the rules seem foolish, this relates to classified data instead of ITAR/EAR. There are many stories of people writing papers or doing part of a design that then gets classified above their clearance level so they no longer have access to what they generated.
So - not saying it all makes sense, not saying it is easy to interpret or is a black/white decision, not saying they are spying on everyone and ready to pounce to prosecute, but the safe approach is to keep this information limited to US citizens and avoid any risk of trouble
And a note to Tmacklin - a foreigner reading improperly exported data is not covered by ITAR/EAR (but could under espionage), it is the person making the data available that would get prosecuted.
It does get confusing in that the rules do exclude information that is common knowledge or freely available (such as a published book). However, during one of our briefings we were warned that even this is open to interpretation. Say someone improperly posts ITAR controlled data onto the web. One could argue that it is now open data. But if you then reference it on your own web site, you could still be prosecuted for displaying it since it should never have been made available in the first place.
And despite NSA, I doubt the government is able to track every communication to verify everyone is following the rules. And even if they catch some infractions, it may not be worthwhile to prosecute. How often does someone get pulled over for making a lane change without first signalling with their directional? You may get away with it most times, but you could also run into a police officer who still needs to make "quota"
And on a slightly different note, but somewhat related to how the rules seem foolish, this relates to classified data instead of ITAR/EAR. There are many stories of people writing papers or doing part of a design that then gets classified above their clearance level so they no longer have access to what they generated.
So - not saying it all makes sense, not saying it is easy to interpret or is a black/white decision, not saying they are spying on everyone and ready to pounce to prosecute, but the safe approach is to keep this information limited to US citizens and avoid any risk of trouble
Barkley
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2015
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 15
As a Canadian living in Texas, with a valid Texas driver's licence and valid US entrant's visa, currently possessing a valid Tripoli L2, I can legally acquire the components and make APCP in my garage. But I'm not allowed into the TRF research section to learn how to do it safely. There is no logic to this.
I disagree. I think there are moderators here who contribute a lot and have done so for many years. In fact, it isn't that long ago that TRF had a no research motor discussion policy at all. Troj introduced it when he owned TRF. Some of the moderators and indeed the contributors to the research subforum likely have been here longer than the subforum. I would hate to see some of those folks go away because we decide they shouldn't be a mod.
Anyway, pushing the boundaries of ITAR rules is a fools game and I will not play.
Is there no other way you can learn how to do it safely? There was a Texas Experimental Yahoo group at one time. Also, often folks who make and fly research motors tend to love to share info.
It may well be that TRF is being overly careful. I bet you can find enough info to make motors safely without relying on TRF.
Barkley
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2015
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 15
Of course there are other resources, but you're sidestepping the idiocy of the situation. I can legally make APCP in my garage, but I can't read your forum. It doesn't make sense. Just today there was a reference to a boosted dart thread (with aims of 100k feet) that I'd love to look at, but... no dice because it's in Research.
cbrarick
Wildman CT
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2009
- Messages
- 3,155
- Reaction score
- 1,018
David:
You go guy! Strike up the fight! We'll be right behind you....trust us.......
of course I didn't say how far behind....
Who's gonna go and kick that bear?
tmacklin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,215
- Reaction score
- 18
In the spirit of International Cooperation, the formula is 10% of this, 15% of that and 75% of the other thing. Hope that helps. :wink:
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
Of course it's idiotic. Try reading 15CFR (Export Administration) or 22CFR (ITAR) and the penalties they can impose if you fail to prove you did not willingly violate their provisions. Literally thousands of pages of conflicting gibberish. Folks who take a conservative bent around those subjects do so with seriously just cause.
Zeus-cat
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2009
- Messages
- 4,991
- Reaction score
- 1,455
There is logic to it, but it’s not real obvious to the casual observer. Many of the ITAR regulations deal with the export of information; not with the actual hardware.
I remember one time I had received a question from a maintenance guy with the Japanese Defense Force. He was replacing the lamp in a searchlight on one of their military helicopters. The maintenance manual my company had written indicated that he was to install the new lamp so that the filament was parallel to the horizon when the searchlight was deployed. He wanted to know how many degrees of variation from the horizon were allowed. Since this was a technical question on a military product I consulted with our ITAR specialist who was also our company lawyer. He reviewed the situation and decided that since this was specifically a maintenance question I could send this guy the information he was asking for as maintenance information was one of the exclusions for passing on technical information.
So think about this for a minute. This guy was working for the military of a country that is a U.S. ally. He was asking for something as mundane as how to replace a lamp in a searchlight on a helicopter. It was not an infrared searchlight, so it was a essentially identical to the ones used on civilian helicopters, such as police and ambulance helicopters. The only things that made in military was that the light was installed on a military helicopter and had a military part number.
About 10 years later I remember reading something about changes in how the company would comply with ITAR regulations. One of the changes was that even questions about maintenance issues now required export licenses. So, if that same guy had asked me the same question 10 years later I would’ve had to refuse to answer because of ITAR regulations.
Even more stupid is how stuff gets classified as commercial or military. I had some dealings with the new 767 tanker before I retired. Since the tanker is based on a commercial jetliner they wanted to use the same spares stream so that anyone offering the tanker could get spare parts very easily. That makes sense. However, they wanted to use the commercials spares distribution system for the entire aircraft; even for things like the refueling boom. I pity the fool that had to get the commercial certification for a refueling boom. I know my FAA guys would have told me were I could stick that refueling boom when I requested commercials certification for it.
patelldp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2009
- Messages
- 5,647
- Reaction score
- 101
Xrain
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 282
- Reaction score
- 30
ITAR is definitely up there as one of my least favorite things. A great example I personally ran into was working on my universities CubeSat. We had purchased a power control board from a company in the UK (https://www.clyde-space.com/). We had it for a year before it was discovered that the board had a design mistake. So normally you would put the rather expensive board back into the fancy pelican case it came in, and ship it back to the manufacturer to be repaired. But we couldn't because of ITAR. Even though the board was originally manufactured and designed in the UK, and we had in no way modified it. We would have had to apply for an export license to send it to them for them to fix it.
From what I have come to understand is that ITAR is generally not enforced. Except when it is, and they make an example of whoever it was that made the violation. There have been a few university professors that I have heard of that have been fined, with one going to jail for a pretty significant amount of time for giving access to graduate students working with them at US universities that happened to be foreign nationals. The standard private company stance on ITAR when they are not large enough to have a ITAR compliance person on staff is to just blanket everything that might possibly be controlled, with an ITAR restriction.
So personally I like that the research section is restricted the way it is, mostly because it makes it a lot more comfortable to post about this sort of stuff.
From what I have come to understand is that ITAR is generally not enforced. Except when it is, and they make an example of whoever it was that made the violation. There have been a few university professors that I have heard of that have been fined, with one going to jail for a pretty significant amount of time for giving access to graduate students working with them at US universities that happened to be foreign nationals. The standard private company stance on ITAR when they are not large enough to have a ITAR compliance person on staff is to just blanket everything that might possibly be controlled, with an ITAR restriction.
So personally I like that the research section is restricted the way it is, mostly because it makes it a lot more comfortable to post about this sort of stuff.
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
A choice made by the forum owners. It is probably common sense and to be honest, the folks who enforce the Export Laws and AECA (ITAR) probably don't give a rats backside on the material we use as it is already splattered all over the web. Personally, I find TRF's rules (as ITAR applies) on the matter inane, however trying to change the moderator's opinions here is a pointless gesture. It would take a scorchingly long reach for someone really doing something where ITAR comes into play to have what is on a hobby forum matter. If a user here came under that scrutiny, they were probably playing fast and loose with things that are watched far more seriously.
BTW, I did export compliance (CCL) for two years as a large part of my job.
OTOH, I am not sure of my position on the age/certification access requirements.
tmacklin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,215
- Reaction score
- 18
I cannot imagine what topics might be discussed under the cover of "[Restricted]Research" in a hobby rocketry forum that would in any way jeopardize homeland security or the ITAR laws. And the more I think about it, who cares! :2:
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
