Why is the [Restricted]Research thread only allowed to US members?
Why is the [Restricted]Research thread only allowed to US members?
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Just a guess, but ITAR and export restrictions come to mind.
ITAR is exactly right. There are legal restrictions on how technology can be transferred from the US to other countries. The only way that we can reasonably comply is to restrict this US citizens.
dave carver
....what hump?
Exactly. A law so goofy that things that are in print and online could cause you a problem if published by you. I have said, many times, I know no secrets, all that I know is commonly available for free online.
....some big secrets.... :eyeroll:
To get into that section you have to be NAR or TRA 2nd level certified. That's due to the restrictions placed on research by Tripoli limiting research to 2nd level and above. So there's stuff in there but the peons like you and me are excluded, only the exaulted may peruse the section.
We have had a lot of folks ask to join from Egypt, Palestine, Russia, etc. it is a means to avoid contributing to violating US and international law. You can always ask for an exception to "Admin" but be prepared to show how it is legal in your area.
Most of the posters are us citizens and we know our laws and not yours. ITAR is the legal limitation.
What are the rules in Canada?
We have had a lot of folks ask to join from Egypt, Palestine, Russia, etc. it is a means to avoid contributing to violating US and international law. You can always ask for an exception to "Admin" but be prepared to show how it is legal in your area.
Most of the posters are us citizens and we know our laws and not yours. ITAR is the legal limitation.
What are the rules in Canada?
Minor correction. According to the posted rules, L1 or greater is sufficient.
TRF now hosts a restricted forum related to Research Motors. Requirements for access are:
1) NAR or TRA senior member
2) US Person (US Citizen or US Permanent Resident (Green Card Holder))
3) High Power Certification (Level 1, 2 or 3)
TRF now hosts a restricted forum related to Research Motors. Requirements for access are:
1) NAR or TRA senior member
2) US Person (US Citizen or US Permanent Resident (Green Card Holder))
3) High Power Certification (Level 1, 2 or 3)
I was suspecting that government regulations, laws may be the justification. If this is the reason I wonder if this is an industry interpretation of the rules and regs or a "just to be on the safe side" approach, which I get. As others posted it is a bit naive considering what can easily be gleaned from the internet and also considering CTI is Canadian.
Truthfully I have no plans on making my own research motors at this stage it is more just an interest in furthering my knowledge on the subject.
Truthfully I have no plans on making my own research motors at this stage it is more just an interest in furthering my knowledge on the subject.
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Technically an exception would require the forum company to be a registered exporter, and the member would need an ID a letter stating they are the end user, and a government run background checkand approval.
mkadams001
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This forum always walks on the safe side of the street and rarely if ever venture into areas that might create a problem real or imagined. I don't know if any government secrets are being shared in the research section. However, I do wonder why the restriction to L1 and above. I have little interest in doing research but, I do have an interest to learn about the subject.
McKailas Dad
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I tend to agree that this is a relatively 'safe' forum, and I'm ok with that. I am also interested in some of the research / ex motors, but if I wanted to know badly enough, I'm quite positive a quick Google search could find any information I wanted.
It would not surprise me if all the serious rocketry propulsion stuff was easier to find than information on hobby rocketry research motors!
When I posted this I was thinking gov regs/legislation, but also I was wondering if the industry itself played a role in trying to keep trade secrets. This being a US based forum would make sense to protect the interests of it's US based companies.
Then I thought well we have CTI in Canada, so the cat is already out of the bag.
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Zeus-cat
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The ITAR rules are very strict and carry severe penalties for violation. As silly as it seems to many people I don't blame the owner and admins from blocking this area from non U.S. citizens. All risk an no gain if something is released.
Sooner Boomer
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GB wanted to give us Canada after one of out little wars with them. We turned them down because there's nothing up there but cold.
(some of the nicest folks I've met have been from Canada.)
"nothing but cold"...don't forget, we gave you Justin Bieber.
I thought about posting the technical aspects of ITAR, but realized it would take more time than I have to post and respond... :eyeroll:
markkoelsch
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We forgive you Beiber as you also have us Rush, Triumph, and Saga.
McKailas Dad
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Now that's just silly...The Triumph was made in England, not Canada.
Yes...i know..I'll behave now
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I looked it up, not a light read. If anyone knows, it would be nice to know the specific points in the ITAR that apply to the discussion?
dave carver
....what hump?
chrisudy
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I can't give you specific points, but we have to deal with ITAR and EAR at work all the time.
EAR is Export Administration Regulations under the Department of Commerce and covers commercial items that could have a dual use for military applications
ITAR is International Traffic in Arms Regulations under the Department of State and covers military items
Any "item" that is covered by EAR or ITAR requires an export license. The item can be a physical item, Software, technical data on that item, or process information on how to make the item
The license has to specify specifically which entities in which countries will be the final destination for that item. So it can't be I sent the data to Canada (since we seem to be picking on them), but if we know they may send the data on to England, then England would be considered the final destination and both Canada and England would have to be approved on license. And it would not be ALL of Canada/England - it would need to specify the individuals/company/organization that would have access to the data/item.
Note that Propellants and constituent materials have an EAR classification of 1C111
Another critical point is to ensure data is NOT made available to a sanctioned destination, a sanctioned entity, a denied person, or a prohibited end user and the item will not be used for specific end use (say a missile). This would be difficult if not impossible with an open web
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Yes
As I stated, an export covers the physical item itself, Software for the items, technical data on that item (such as drawings, specs, instructions, or process information on how to make the item.
So if the section covers what chemicals to use, what temperature/pressures need to be used, how to mix the chemicals, etc it contains process information on how to make it and/or technical data on the propellant. Therefore that data requires an export license.
Also as a quick note - if you as a buddy on the field (say of an URRG launch) share this type of info with someone attending a launch to a non-US citizen (say someone from Canada), you are still doing an export and could be held accountable (fines/jail) if you do so without an export license
As I stated, an export covers the physical item itself, Software for the items, technical data on that item (such as drawings, specs, instructions, or process information on how to make the item.
So if the section covers what chemicals to use, what temperature/pressures need to be used, how to mix the chemicals, etc it contains process information on how to make it and/or technical data on the propellant. Therefore that data requires an export license.
Also as a quick note - if you as a buddy on the field (say of an URRG launch) share this type of info with someone attending a launch to a non-US citizen (say someone from Canada), you are still doing an export and could be held accountable (fines/jail) if you do so without an export license
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markkoelsch
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Yes, but the awesomeness that was Rush crushes all that evil.
Technically correct... However, enforcement against the discussion of openly known technology, on an open forum or in private conversation, is not practical... To my knowledge, there are no known enforcement actions, (including warnings our citations, criminal or civil), on the books for such non commercial activities associated with our hobby... Could be wrong, but don't believe that to be the case...
There are very few people in Canada actually pursuing research motor making anyway. As far as ITAR concerns, didn't TRA have research flights In Canada at LDRS24? I wasn't there unfortunately.
As far as I am aware, CAR currently has no research support. I think the reason is that there simply aren't enough people interested and willing to jump through the regulatory hoops. The regulations are sufficiently difficult to stop most people. The Explosives Regulatory Division of Natural Resources Canada oversees this. It is time consuming and costly to meet the criteria needed to make research motors. Since CAR doesn't actively support it, a person is on their own to get authorizations to launch the motors. I only am aware of one person in Canada who has done all of this and did make APCP motors. I am not sure if he is currently active. He has obtained authorizations to launch in the past as well. There is a well known Canadian sugar propellant evangelist. I am not certain that his work happens in Canada. I've known of a few people who did make sugar motors in Canada but I am not aware of the legality of their pursuits. They did this a long time ago.
I don't believe that any manufacturers held back research motor making. In fact, RCS Rocket Motor Components is a part of Aerotech.
AP isn't easy to get in Canada. We have our own version of the Department of State. Running afoul of the Canadian Controlled Goods Regulations can get someone into really nasty trouble here.
I don't have the proper location to pursue research motor making. I would love to do so. I've purchased several books on the topic, including Experimental Composite Propellant. I understand that it makes sense to restrict the research section to U.S. persons. It at least has the appearance of controlling the information flow.
As far as I am aware, CAR currently has no research support. I think the reason is that there simply aren't enough people interested and willing to jump through the regulatory hoops. The regulations are sufficiently difficult to stop most people. The Explosives Regulatory Division of Natural Resources Canada oversees this. It is time consuming and costly to meet the criteria needed to make research motors. Since CAR doesn't actively support it, a person is on their own to get authorizations to launch the motors. I only am aware of one person in Canada who has done all of this and did make APCP motors. I am not sure if he is currently active. He has obtained authorizations to launch in the past as well. There is a well known Canadian sugar propellant evangelist. I am not certain that his work happens in Canada. I've known of a few people who did make sugar motors in Canada but I am not aware of the legality of their pursuits. They did this a long time ago.
I don't believe that any manufacturers held back research motor making. In fact, RCS Rocket Motor Components is a part of Aerotech.
AP isn't easy to get in Canada. We have our own version of the Department of State. Running afoul of the Canadian Controlled Goods Regulations can get someone into really nasty trouble here.
I don't have the proper location to pursue research motor making. I would love to do so. I've purchased several books on the topic, including Experimental Composite Propellant. I understand that it makes sense to restrict the research section to U.S. persons. It at least has the appearance of controlling the information flow.
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Beyond CTI I am not aware of anyone active at this stage, in APCP commercial motors, likely for the reasons you mentioned. However as per my initial post I have no plans on making any propellant now or in the foreseeable future, my desire for the knowledge is strictly in the interest of furthering my knowledge in the hobby. I realize there are books on the topic however I prefer a live experiential forum for learning such topics.
From a practical point, as I make more friends in the hobby, a lot of them on the US side, it would be nice to be able to participate in any EX conversations around the prep table or over the post launch beer.
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