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You WILL need to taper your fins. YOu will increase stability, but not achieve a safe altitude if you eave them square.

Wut. You lost me there. It's a 10" rocket with massive frontal area and low velocity...beveling the 3/8" fins will be entirely negligible.

ONce you go to L2...don't putz around. Put a 3-grain L in it. Use a CTI L820 skidmark.

A skidmark is the epitome of putzing around. "Not putzing around" for an L2 would be an L1115 Classic from CTI as it's the largest L around.
 
A skidmark is the epitome of putzing around. "Not putzing around" for an L2 would be an L1115 Classic from CTI as it's the largest L around.

Have you never met the AT L2200G? Its a 97% L The L1115 is 92%.
 
I was just thinking that the L820 would put on a spectacular show...Short rockets. Big flames. But so would a L3200, an L1720, or an L1350.

Stability is increased lightly with square-faced fins because they add more resistance aft. Problem is that it severely cuts back on altitude because of the length of the leading edges. Go to Open Rocket and sim it. Although I used 1/2" fins not 3/8". I thought the 10" Goblin used 1/2".
 
Weighing in on this a little late...but these are my thoughts. For the L1 portion make it single deploy, but do so with electronics...not motor ejection because the high impulse I's don't burn that long. An AT I-600, which is a 38mm motor, is probably your best bet because it is a 100% I.

I quickly threw a sim together on what I thought would be a goblin (based on memory). The rocket is a typical short rocket in that stability is a challenge. Probably a .4 cal. at best. With the I-motor you have no choice. You cannot add weight. 600 avg. NS is equal to 135 ft. lbs./sec. To achieve a stable 5:1 Thrust-Weight ratio, the rocket can therefore weigh NO MORE than 27 lbs. on the I-600.

You really only have 4 motors that can do the job at the L-1 level. My preference would be the AT I-600, other choices are the Aerotech I-1299, Cesaroni I-800, and the Aerotech I-599 (the only one that is a 54mm motor - the others are 38mm).

Once you go to L2...don't putz around. Put a 3-grain L in it. Use a CTI L820 skidmark.




In general this thread is breaking my head. Everyone is all upset about something that is totally possible.

The I's don't burn long? the I600R, which I agree is the best motor for this, burns for 1.1s. plenty long.

If an RSO doesn't understand base drag, he shouldn't be an RSO.

L820skid? why not use a more efficient propellant and really kick it off that pad?



aside from the above comments, the replies here are filled with misinformation, elitism, and jealousy.

If you're TRA, and you wanna pop 1-2-3 on a single airframe.... no reason not to. It's possible, and legal. everything else is just people being idiots.
 
Stability is increased lightly with square-faced fins because they add more resistance aft. Problem is that it severely cuts back on altitude because of the length of the leading edges. Go to Open Rocket and sim it. Although I used 1/2" fins not 3/8". I thought the 10" Goblin used 1/2".

On a tank like this.... beveling or not beveling fins is not going to affect flight performance to a level that matters...and certainly not make a flight "unsafe"
 
On a tank like this.... beveling or not beveling fins is not going to affect flight performance to a level that matters...and certainly not make a flight "unsafe"

The only thing it really will do is shave a couple of ounces, and in this case thats good,IMO.
 
My 10" Goblin weighed 42 lb on the pad with a 75/6000 M745 for my L3 cert. Don't forget about the recovery gear, electronics, and the motor casing & propellant weight. Without motor I believe mine weighs around 29 lb.
 
My 10" Goblin weighed 42 lb on the pad with a 75/6000 M745 for my L3 cert. Don't forget about the recovery gear, electronics, and the motor casing & propellant weight. Without motor I believe mine weighs around 29 lb.

Keep in mind an I-600 weighs 21.5 oz. not 14 pounds.

The way to save te remaining weight is to step up what you need. You don't need all the increased weight of an AV bay, etc. at the L1 level. As long has you have good internal fillets and the fins glued to the airframe, you don't really need the externals if you fly with an I. We're talking about a top speed of 90-120 MPH, depending on motors. My Subaru can go faster. Whether you mount your electronics in the fincan or the nosecone, all you really need at the L1 level is to place the altimeter in a place where the bay does not also have to bear the load of the rocket. That way you keep your overall altimeter bay weight in the 6-8 ounce-range instead of the 3-4 pound range. Build the rocket in such a way that the additional components can be added later when they are needed. Add the additional fillets after the L1 flight, go to a more robist recovery system, etc.

Base drag aside. I am attaching the very quick, based on memory design of the goblin, just adding in a mass component to factor in additional weight. Weight is close to 26 lbs. with an I-600. If the fins are square the stability is .56 ca. If the fins are airfoiled, stability is .605 ca...so yes, there is a difference, but it's the other way that what I had though earlier. Mea culpa. With fins square, altitude is simmed to 371'. Airfoiled..411'. Not much but on a low altitude flight ever foot is precious. All the way around, airfoiling the fins will help. Plus when you put a REAL motor behind it, they will contribute a lot more.

Motors included in the sim are the I-600, the L2200, and an M1830, a good fun motor that will give it a kick, is relatively inexpensive, and will not take it into transonic speeds.

I say do it. The math works out, and it would be fun to see this thing sputter into the sky on an I. What you should do is film it at 60 FPS so you can watch it in slo-mo.

Oh, and Dave...you're a photographer. Think of how spectacular the shot would be if this launched with an L820. Yes there are motors that will take it higher and faster, but there aren't many other L's that can do it with more style and louder. A deafening slow launch on a skid with this thing would look ands sound awesome.


Good luck.

View attachment I-Goblin.ork
 
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In general this thread is breaking my head. Everyone is all upset about something that is totally possible.

At the pad the rocket will weigh about 30 pounds depending on the equipment. I'm no forensic molecular materials scientist, but I highly suspect a I600 won't take 30 pound hunk of mass into the air at a high enough altitude, and bring it back safely. That aside, I don't look to start a "misinformed" argument out of my pure "jealousy," so I'm just going to wait and if the rocket goes up, and comes back down safely kudos to you, but if it goes "wwooosh! pop! crash!" you walked into my kitchen and you're gonna take the heat buddy. When you're dropping 350 bucks on a kit + motor you shouldn't be thinking too optimistically, especially when it's your L1 cert, and when you're telling the newcomer that it's going to be all fine and peachy, that's when I start loosing my marbles.
 
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I600R at 30 pounds is 4.4:1 thrust to weight. peak altitude of 258 feet. Now, while not ideal, that'll fly. Personally I'd be shaving weight anywhere....and I wouldn't go for it. I'd pop an easy L1 on something 3" and light on an H133, then go two three with the gob....but thats me..... not this guy.




But it is possible. In my kitchen we can do basic math.



If you manage the listed weight of 25 pounds it jumps to 5.2:1 and 350'
 
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Once again.....CTI I-800 is a better choice than I-600 as I mentioned back on page 1.
It has 210lbs of thrust vs 182.
That will give a 7-1 thrust ratio.
You can get a 5 grain case & 1 spacer to do both I's & J's
 
Once again.....CTI I-800 is a better choice than I-600 as I mentioned back on page 1.
It has 210lbs of thrust vs 182.
That will give a 7-1 thrust ratio.
You can get a 5 grain case & 1 spacer to do both I's & J's

and at 30 pounds, 120 foot flight. 170' at 25 pounds. I'm all for pushing it...but that's REALLY pushing it.
 
Kinda fishy there...something doesn't add up if you got 258 with the I-600.
More thrust should = more altitude, with virtually same burn time.

What do you suppose is going on?
 
The I600 is simply a re worked J420 redline . The cores were opened up till it was a full I . The motor was built specificly for the 8 pound bowling ball class . Out of a tube launcher , I would get over 2000 feet with the I600. This is by far the best load lifting I . The CTI I540 would get just under 2000 in the same rocket . I will suggest using a altimeter and a timer . Program the timer to pop the cone while it is still traveling up . It will work , just use a LONG rail .

Eric
 
Thanks guys... I was in left field on that one..LOl

Should have compared total Ns. Guess the sometimerz has advanced to partimerz.
 
I-800 has good oomph, but it shuts down in 0.4 seconds. IN my rough estimates, 170'-180' up. I think it needs to go higher. While the I-600 doesn't have as high average thrust, it burns for 1.1 seconds, and it peaks at 800 NS, and stays above 700 NS for 0.3 sec. Build it so that extra parts can be added later. Don't even paint it because that's an extra 4-6 oz. This will work.
 
Here's another thought....

A cluster of 3 29mm motors will fit inside the 75mm motor tube. Cluster 3x Aerotech H210's or 3 CTI H410's.
 
A couple of clarifications, since I'm seeing weight estimates fly all over the place:
  • I think this would be even sillier on the original fins ( AKA templates )
  • Start with slightly thinner ply, bevel edges, lightening holes, foam fill, carbon fiber
  • Similar composite construction for the centering rings
  • As several have mentioned, no fancy surplus hardware; no huge fillets; no heavy paint
  • Ultra rough simming comes in at ( assuming -33% wt. of built-up fins & rings )
    • 38/720 | i600r | 18lb | 600ft
    • 38/720 | j500g | 18lb | 750ft
    • 75/6400 | m650w | 28lb | 5,500ft
Questions I'm still muddling through:
  • Somebody mentioned long rails; what are some good rules of thumb, formulas, references?
  • Related, looking for discussions on safe off-the-rail speeds and margins
  • I see crazy estimates all over the web for shroud line & shock cord; what's up?
  • Can anyone point to actual science / references for any of the above? A lot of threads I'm reading are "I use this a lot so it's all good" but I'm looking for test data, theory, etc.
  • Does someone have a reference floating out there of RMS -weights-, specific impulses?
Thanks again everyone who's been encouraging, entertaining, or either!

Finally, apropos of nothing: for some reason my family is thinking about rockets a lot. Like everything else, it's probably not my fault / a total mystery.
kidrocket.jpg
 
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A couple of clarifications, since I'm seeing weight estimates fly all over the place:
  • I think this would be even sillier on the original fins ( AKA templates )
  • Start with slightly thinner ply, bevel edges, lightening holes, foam fill, carbon fiber
  • Similar composite construction for the centering rings
  • As several have mentioned, no fancy surplus hardware; no huge fillets; no heavy paint
  • Ultra rough simming comes in at ( assuming -33% wt. of built-up fins & rings )
    • 38/720 | i600r | 18lb | 600ft
    • 38/720 | j500g | 18lb | 750ft
    • 75/6400 | m650w | 28lb | 5,500ft
Questions I'm still muddling through:
  • Somebody mentioned long rails; what are some good rules of thumb, formulas, references?
  • Related, looking for discussions on safe off-the-rail speeds and margins
  • I see crazy estimates all over the web for shroud line & shock cord; what's up?
  • Can anyone point to actual science / references for any of the above? A lot of threads I'm reading are "I use this a lot so it's all good" but I'm looking for test data, theory, etc.
  • Does someone have a reference floating out there of RMS -weights-, specific impulses?
Thanks again everyone who's been encouraging, entertaining, or either!

Finally, apropos of nothing: for some reason my family is thinking about rockets a lot. Like everything else, it's probably not my fault / a total mystery.
View attachment 282156

Do you know how much of the kit's weight is made up by the fins and centering rings? It might be worth it to weigh them. It seems to me that it would be difficult to lighten them by seven pounds - not knowing what they weigh to begin with, I could be wrong...

I'm not in with the "no way" crowd, but there is no doubt that it will be interesting!
 
I just roughly weighed the nosecone ( 4.5lbs ), body tube ( 4.5lbs ), fins+rings ( 7.5lbs ). I'm starting to suspect the quoted 25 pound weight is if-you-build-it-this-way-with-lots-of-epoxy-and-paint, as I can't get the raw parts anywhere near that heavy. When I get access to a better scale / long before I'm ready to modify anything, I'll take more precise measurements of each piece to tune my .ork and publish it here: it's the least I can do for all the helpful thoughts so far.
While playing around with motor sims, it occurred to me to look: an AT N1000

  • wouldn't break 10G accel
  • would be >1 calibre stable
  • would weigh about 45lbs
  • would top out at ~500 mph
  • could maybe go too high: waiver is 10,000' MSL, ~600' local elevation
HMMM, interesting....
 
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A followup musing: I've heard elliptical fins are a better choice at these not-even-transsonic speeds: as long as I'm thinking about building new fins, might make sense to eliminate some of those easily broken pointy bits.
 
This is my humble opinion but, you trying to fit a Big peg in a small hole. Why go thru all this aggravation when your goal is to CERTIFY, Right? No L1, then No L2 or L3. Do what you want but I would make it easy on myself and just buy a suitable L1 rocket for less than a hundred bucks. Now I'm talking about an all fiberglass rocket here. Fiberglass rockets are your friend, especially when you're going for your cert. Screw up the recovery and most likely just walk out and pick it up. Does anyone disagree it's the RECOVERY that we usually worry about. Now I LOVE that AT I600 and I have flown them a BUNCH. If you only put that big A** 10" rocket up 600' on an I-something, who wants to take bets on your recovery??? Your margin for error is really slim and I doubt you can do it without electronics. Do you really want to add that to the equation? You can easily do your L1 and L2 on a 3" fiberglass rocket, and still have your big rocket in the corner, after you successfully achieve your L2.
 
This is my humble opinion but, you trying to fit a Big peg in a small hole. Why go thru all this aggravation when your goal is to CERTIFY, Right? No L1, then No L2 or L3. Do what you want but I would make it easy on myself and just buy a suitable L1 rocket for less than a hundred bucks. Now I'm talking about an all fiberglass rocket here. Fiberglass rockets are your friend, especially when you're going for your cert. Screw up the recovery and most likely just walk out and pick it up. Does anyone disagree it's the RECOVERY that we usually worry about. Now I LOVE that AT I600 and I have flown them a BUNCH. If you only put that big A** 10" rocket up 600' on an I-something, who wants to take bets on your recovery??? Your margin for error is really slim and I doubt you can do it without electronics. Do you really want to add that to the equation? You can easily do your L1 and L2 on a 3" fiberglass rocket, and still have your big rocket in the corner, after you successfully achieve your L2.

Asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest, Sir Edmund Hillary responded..."Because it's there." This would be a very unique challenge. You can always be boring and pick up a "safe kit" and Cert L1 pretty easily. It takes some enlarged testicles to do it this way.
 
A followup musing: I've heard elliptical fins are a better choice at these not-even-transsonic speeds: as long as I'm thinking about building new fins, might make sense to eliminate some of those easily broken pointy bits.

I like the idea - it would end up looking like a little bit like an upscaled Binder Design Dragonfly. We are working on a 12.75" (4.9x) version with 23"x10" elliptical fins. It should weigh in under 50 pounds on the pad. We are hoping to fly on K-L and possibly a small slow-burning M.

Is the body tube already slotted?
 

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