TLP AIM-7F Sparrow Build Thread

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bclark989

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Hi all,

I have a TLP AIM-7F under construction and thought I would dump all my photos on here. I'm about halfway through, so the first couple of posts will come pretty quickly, and then hopefully having a build thread will motivate me to get it done sooner than later despite a few other enticing projects I have waiting in the wings.

As for this rocket, "I've made a few modifications myself":

1. With a few parts from a Sunward MMT kit, I've upped it to a 29mm with ply centering rings. In light of that, I acquired some birch ply to cut fins from in place of the balsa.
2. I wasn't sure the paper nose cone would handle the push of some of the 29mm motors, so I've opted for a plastic ogive nosecone.
3. I considered doing some lightweight fiberglass on the boat tail, but instead have just a combination of some blank white shipping label stock and a lot of thin CA.

I'll try to get the first round of pictures up tonight!

BC
 
Awesome!
Can't wait to see what you come up with.:pop:

The world of building techniques and skills benefit greatly by folks building TLP Kits.
 
A properly built paper witches hat can stand up to the mighty H 410 VMAX. it can pierce right through a papered balsa fin with no damage. Do not be scared away by the witches hat!

Disclaimer: I have not mentioned any other TLP component in the same manner.
 
Hi again. Sorry I didn't post these last night after all. I got busy watching my Blazers crush the Bucks!

So here is the artwork from the kit. This is my first TLP kit. I won it in an A motor altitude contest last September. Before then, I hadn't even heard of TLP, but I have loved working on this kit, so I'm sure more are in my future!
IMG_20151101_181150.jpg

One more item of note on this build...I have no idea if I did everything in the same order as the instructions call for. I started with the motor mount since I was going to have to modify it so much. I am reading through each section for I attack to make sure I don't do anything so out of order that I ruin it...just wanted to point out that my photos might not follow the instructions in perfect chronological order.

Here is the paper boat tail curing. I am using Titebond II for any of the paper/wood joints on this build. I did dry fits for each tube in the boat tail and found it needed a little more room than the line indicated:
IMG_20151101_181130.jpg

The other thing I knocked out the first night was setting the motor retainer up to cure. In case it isn't obvious, this is the Estes 29mm retainer, which fit the Sunward MMT tube like a glove. Bonded using hobby shop 5 minute epoxy:
IMG_20151101_181139.jpg

Next, I needed to knock down one of the Sunward CRs to fit in the smaller body tube at the back of the boat tail. I used the 24mm CR that came with the kit as a stencil:
IMG_20151101_181219.jpg

Here it is with the line drawn (It took a few tries to get it centered. Someone with more shop experience probably has a cool trick for this but I just eyeballed it until I had the concentricity to within a millimeter or so):
IMG_20151101_181223.jpg

And finally, after an initial pass on the bandsaw with a jigsaw blade and some sanding, here are my centering rings:
IMG_20151101_181230.jpg

Once the boat tail had cured, I test fit it to each tube again. Everything seemed to check out:
IMG_20151101_181415.jpg

IMG_20151101_181338.jpg

So after all that, I had my MMT kit! The forward most centering ring is straight from the Sunward kit (2.6" to 29mm). The black ring on the smaller tube came with the TLP kit (2.6" to 2"). Finally, my custom CR in the aft end to hold the motor tube into the 2" body tube (2" to 29mm). This is all dryfit at this point with the exception of the motor retainer male threads:
IMG_20151101_181537.jpg

And last but not least, an assembled dry fit. Everything fit perfectly!:
IMG_20151101_181812.jpg
 
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A properly built paper witches hat can stand up to the mighty H 410 VMAX. it can pierce right through a papered balsa fin with no damage. Do not be scared away by the witches hat!

Disclaimer: I have not mentioned any other TLP component in the same manner.

I believe you. Many people (myself included) always seem to lean towards feeling the need to overbuild everything, as if the original designer hadn't considered the fact that someone may actually launch one of their rockets into the sky at hundreds of miles per hour. Go figure. That being said, I wasn't sure what kind of safety factor TLP had built into the design of these rockets, and since I knew I wanted to do 29mm, I figured I would go the uber safe route.

By the way, is someone in these TLP threads officially associated with TLP somehow? I am pretty new, and don't use the forums as much as I would like to. Following NZM305's thread on his Hellfire would suggest there is some rocket royalty hanging around, haha! Just wondering who is who =)

Cheers,

BC
 
...
By the way, is someone in these TLP threads officially associated with TLP somehow? I am pretty new, and don't use the forums as much as I would like to. Following NZM305's thread on his Hellfire would suggest there is some rocket royalty hanging around, haha! Just wondering who is who =)

Cheers,

BC

Nice build so far. Charles Barndt owns The Launch Pad but I don't know if he has a presence here (https://www.the-launch-pad.com/#!form__map/c24vq). There are many fine build threads of various TLP kits here and you can get alot of tips and ideas from them. I'll just put my 2 cents in to single out sodmeister. He builds museum quality models then has the audacity to actually take them out and fly them ! Crazy Canadian, I think. :wink:

Looking at his build threads is time well spent IMO.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/search.php?searchid=4269485
 
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This kit uses a 2" tube to step down from the body tube, then to the MMT? Just asking because this is on my list. Never seen that before with the different rings, looks cool.
 
This kit uses a 2" tube to step down from the body tube, then to the MMT? Just asking because this is on my list. Never seen that before with the different rings, looks cool.

Once it is assembled, you just see the one step down with the paper boat tail as the transition. Since the motor tube is smaller than 2" though, you need centering rings that fit in the smaller tube and hold the motor tube. In my case, with the motor tube being longer that the 2" tube (and therefore protruding further into the main 2.5" body tube), I needed 3 different centering ring sizes as listed above.

Hope that made sense. In the second to last picture, the parts are actually aligned horizontally in the same way they are spaced once assembled.

BC
 
Got it the last ring centers and sits flush at the end of the boattail.

Yessir!

Here are the next few photos I got. I glued the CR's all in place, then glued the motor tube into the 2" tube. You'll notice I actually switched back and forth between the wood glue and epoxy here. I think this was because my 4 year old wanted to help, but I didn't really want him handling or inhaling fumes from epoxy. I usually epoxy anything MMT related, but knew that wood glue was fine in this instance, and he wanted to help, so there you go...

I inserted this sub-assembly into the main 2.5" tube while it cured to ensure everything was aligned properly:

IMG_20151109_160004.jpg

IMG_20151207_150256.jpg

After that all dried, I took the MMT back out and installed an eye bolt on the forward CR:
IMG_20151111_161345.jpg
 
Per my original post, I picked up some birch plywood to replace the balsa included in the kit to use as fin stock.

IMG_20151119_083104.jpg

IMG_20151125_164357.jpg

After getting them all drawn, I added fin tabs. The aft fins' tabs were measured to 0.25" so they can glue into the 2" tube through the 2.5" tube. The upper fins' tabs are also about 0.25", but those were less critical as they aren't gluing to anything, they will just give me a place to do fillets along the ID of the body tube.

IMG_20151119_083135.jpg

Next, all 8 were cut out on the band saw.

IMG_20151207_151643.jpg

IMG_20151207_151319.jpg

Next, I laid one of the aft fins on the air frame to mark where the slot for the fin tab needed to go.

IMG_20160123_094111.jpg

After getting the slots all drawn, they were cut out using an Xacto knife.

IMG_20160123_094350.jpg

IMG_20160123_095046.jpg

After getting everything cut out, they were test fit. Everything's comin' up Millhouse!

IMG_20160123_095524.jpg

EDIT: At some point, I glued the boat tail on and didn't get a picture. The process is pretty straight forward: Stick it exactly where it is going to go and apply thin CA liberally. I started to coat the whole thing and then stopped to give my nose a break, which is why the coverage looks a little weird in that picture.
 
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I believe you. Many people (myself included) always seem to lean towards feeling the need to overbuild everything, as if the original designer hadn't considered the fact that someone may actually launch one of their rockets into the sky at hundreds of miles per hour. Go figure. That being said, I wasn't sure what kind of safety factor TLP had built into the design of these rockets, and since I knew I wanted to do 29mm, I figured I would go the uber safe route.

By the way, is someone in these TLP threads officially associated with TLP somehow? I am pretty new, and don't use the forums as much as I would like to. Following NZM305's thread on his Hellfire would suggest there is some rocket royalty hanging around, haha! Just wondering who is who =)

Cheers,

BC


If you read the reviews on Rocketreviews.com of folks that have built TLP Kits per the instructions, you'll quickly realize why most folks either "overbuild" them in the first place, or end up having to repair/rebuild them after the first flight.
That's one of the things that dissuades a lot of folks from TLP. They get one, fly it stock, then cry about it on Rocketreviews and go back to other kits that don't require any thought.
The results and experiences shared there are pretty consistent in that regard.
 
That's interesting. I was being sarcastic, assuming that really, rocket kits are built to fly. I knew this TLP kit seemed dainty, but figured it would be fine if I hadn't wanted to go up to 29mm G and H motors. I'll have to go read some rocket reviews about them. I haven't been on that site much other than to grab sim files occasionally.
 
That's interesting. I was being sarcastic, assuming that really, rocket kits are built to fly. I knew this TLP kit seemed dainty, but figured it would be fine if I hadn't wanted to go up to 29mm G and H motors. I'll have to go read some rocket reviews about them. I haven't been on that site much other than to grab sim files occasionally.

I got my inspiration to build TLP stuff from Sodmiester, and he was kind enough to share some of his wisdom with me. Others here too have guided me in the way of the TLP, and among one of the most helpful pieces of advice I received was to listen to folks that had actually flown them, and more than once.
The best place to source this info I found was the Rocketreviews site. It showed me why a lot of folks only build and fly one TLP kit, and how not to be one of those folks.
A lot of the problems come from trying desperately to build the rocket as light as possible and doing things like actually using the mylar parachute and string or following the directions to the letter.
You'll enjoy reading Rocketreviews!! Matter of fact, I think I'll go read some TLP reviews right now as a reminder.
I have extensively tried to find all the information possible about TLP kits.
Hopefully, in the process, and through sharing my experiences, I can contribute to the enjoyment of their kits in a positive fashion.



TLP Reviews: https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews-3889.html
 
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I got my inspiration to build TLP stuff from Sodmiester, and he was kind enough to share some of his wisdom with me. Others here too have guided me in the way of the TLP, and among one of the most helpful pieces of advice I received was to listen to folks that had actually flown them, and more than once.
The best place to source this info I found was the Rocketreviews site. It showed me why a lot of folks only build and fly one TLP kit, and how not to be one of those folks.
A lot of the problems come from trying desperately to build the rocket as light as possible and doing things like actually using the mylar parachute and string or following the directions to the letter.
You'll enjoy reading Rocketreviews!! Matter of fact, I think I'll go read some TLP reviews right now as a reminder.
I have extensively tried to find all the information possible about TLP kits.
Hopefully, in the process, and through sharing my experiences, I can contribute to the enjoyment of their kits in a positive fashion.



TLP Reviews: https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews-3889.html

Very cool. Thanks for sharing and passing along that wisdom. I will go check it out.

And yeah, as soon as I opened the kit, I was surprised to see a string and Mylar parachute. Before I had even decided to go to 29mm, I knew I would be replacing that =P

Cheers,

BC
 
I just traded in my Amraam kit for this one. This is next up for me. Question, does anyone make plastic/fg boattail cones to replace the paper one?

Mad Cow makes a 2.6" Boat Tail cone that works well on the TLP Kits.
I used it on my TLP Gabriel III/AS with good results.
I updogged that one to 29mm.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ns-And-Build-Thread&highlight=TLP+Gabriel+III


Here's what I had to say about the FG Tail Cone from Mad Cow after using it, so you don't have to look at the thread:

"Do to the nice results I've gotten with the Mad Cow Fiberglass Tail cone, I take back what I said about it earlier, and infact would not hesitate to use another on a future Build.
I just had to feel my way through it, since I could'nt find anything using Search here on the Forum. I think I've got it licked.
After sanding to blend it with the Body of the Rocket, using a Strip of 120 Grit SP, and a "Shoe Shine" Sanding Method, the Pattern that was visible through the Paint layer on the Tail Cone Dissapeared.
Kudos to Mad Cow for a good Product.
"
 
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Sorry for the delay in uploads... Home improvement projects getting in the way of the construction projects that really matter!

Here is the last round of photos of work I had already done:

I trimmed the excess material at the leading edge of the paper tail cone and went a little overboard:
IMG_20160130_085827.jpg

I have a big roll of 4" x 6" label stock (Similar to a FedEx or UPS label). I Cut a strip of it about 1.5" wide to roll around the seam:
IMG_20160130_085903.jpg

IMG_20160130_090042.jpg

Next, I attacked the overlapping area with scissors to be able to fold it down onto the tail cone:
IMG_20160130_090402.jpg

I folded every other tab up, pressed the adjacent tabs down, then pressed the middle tab back down to get them all pressed down in a semi-organized fashion:
IMG_20160130_090451.jpg
IMG_20160130_090505.jpg

After everything was in place, CA flowed freely to create a nice little shell:
IMG_20160130_091127.jpg

I have been sanding everything this past week and will have a few more photos soon. Then its on to final assembly!

BC
 
Some of the old TLP reviews are very amusing. TLP kits are "sports" scale kits designed in the prior century to fly on BP D motors and lowly SU composite motors. Basically "high end" low power, built with low power components. Those were the days of radicals flying Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships on HIGH POWER 29mm G motors! It seems many would take a lowly TLP kit and upgrade to fly with more manly motors and components. The problem is in all that manliness they forgot the basic rules of model rocketry. Some TLP kits built stock can have small stability margins even with their swamp mud nose weight. Upgrade it by putting a lot of reinforcement/new materials and bigger motor in the hind end and what happens? The macho-macho man is not going to use any more no good, stinking, performance robbing nose weight, that would reduce the awesome performance he is looking for from the bigger motor! The real problem occurred when they would take out these modified monsters, show them off and fly them in front of their buddies. The resulting unstable crash with a powerful motor was a huge blow to the ego. The only thing to do was to spout off against the kit itself! Blame the manufacturer for not publicizing the CP locations! Criticize the components, lack of decals, suspect simulations of heavily modified rockets. All very amusing showing they had no idea of what they were doing but gosh darn they were cool.

So you need some base Jedi experience to really modify a TLP kit properly, keeping your mind on where you are at and what you are doing. Modified TLP kits can bite even experienced flyers, some are just nasty. Is it stable? Are the the fins perfectly aligned for that fast burning and powerful motor? Are the launch conditions good? Are the modified components a good fit or will a weak link exist? Should I have just scratch built with decent mid-high power components? All questions to ask.

Whatever you do, do NOT let your buddies know you are desperate for no good, stinking, performance robbing nose weight, so uncool. Just pack it in, secure it and use a bigger motor. No one needs to know your machismo has been reduced by weight up front (except for a quiet and private whisper to the trusted RSO). Then let the TLP mods rip off the pad. Be a TLP lover!
 
Some of the old TLP reviews are very amusing. TLP kits are "sports" scale kits designed in the prior century to fly on BP D motors and lowly SU composite motors. Basically "high end" low power, built with low power components. Those were the days of radicals flying Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships on HIGH POWER 29mm G motors! It seems many would take a lowly TLP kit and upgrade to fly with more manly motors and components. The problem is in all that manliness they forgot the basic rules of model rocketry. Some TLP kits built stock can have small stability margins even with their swamp mud nose weight. Upgrade it by putting a lot of reinforcement/new materials and bigger motor in the hind end and what happens? The macho-macho man is not going to use any more no good, stinking, performance robbing nose weight, that would reduce the awesome performance he is looking for from the bigger motor! The real problem occurred when they would take out these modified monsters, show them off and fly them in front of their buddies. The resulting unstable crash with a powerful motor was a huge blow to the ego. The only thing to do was to spout off against the kit itself! Blame the manufacturer for not publicizing the CP locations! Criticize the components, lack of decals, suspect simulations of heavily modified rockets. All very amusing showing they had no idea of what they were doing but gosh darn they were cool.

So you need some base Jedi experience to really modify a TLP kit properly, keeping your mind on where you are at and what you are doing. Modified TLP kits can bite even experienced flyers, some are just nasty. Is it stable? Are the the fins perfectly aligned for that fast burning and powerful motor? Are the launch conditions good? Are the modified components a good fit or will a weak link exist? Should I have just scratch built with decent mid-high power components? All questions to ask.

Whatever you do, do NOT let your buddies know you are desperate for no good, stinking, performance robbing nose weight, so uncool. Just pack it in, secure it and use a bigger motor. No one needs to know your machismo has been reduced by weight up front (except for a quiet and private whisper to the trusted RSO). Then let the TLP mods rip off the pad. Be a TLP lover!



I'm proud of having to add nose weight.:wink:

Knowing how to use Openrocket to be sure of stability margins and off the rail velocities goes a long way too.

Here's the Martel, one of their kits that people sometimes complain about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFeGZLoORE
 
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Back to the Sparrow, here is a nice little read about it, to include mention of the proposed nuclear tipped variant.

"The designation XAAM-N-9 Sparrow X was allocated to a proposed nuclear-armed Sparrow derivative in 1958 with a low-yield W-42 fission warhead. However, this proposal was short-lived and the Sparrow X was cancelled early in the design stage."

https://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-7.html
 
I started to post an update last week and got sidetracked. I'll try again!

I have been able to put a bit more time in on this guy. I left off with the air frame basically complete. Time to install the fins.

On a 4 fin rocket, you use a piece of angled something (I'm using the Estes body tube marking guide) and clamp two opposing fins to it while it rests on the aft end of the body tube. It forces the fins into a parallel alignment. I learned this trick from Crazy Jim's Wildman V2 build thread. It works great...if your fin slots are perfectly aligned. Here is the method in action:
IMG_20160220_151647.jpg

(You can also see in the photo that I had the angle clamped to two pieces of wood (other fins) and then clamped those in turn to the fins I was installing. This is unnecessary if the fins you are installing extend beyond the bottom of the rocket (V2, Big Daddy, Big Bertha, etc.). The fins in those cases can be clamped straight to the angle.)

Unfortunately, my fin slots must not have been perfectly aligned, so I ended up with the fins slightly out of parallel. It isn't so bad that I'm going to break them loose and start over, but if you look at it from the bottom, you can tell.

Anyhow, here is the bottom with the fins all glued in place:
IMG_20160222_175254.jpg

Next, it was time to make the little brackets that go on either side of these fins. I thought the drawing in the instructions was going to be 1:1 scale, but it wasn't. Broke out the dial calipers and got them cut out pretty quick:
IMG_20160224_172002.jpg

Here is a view of two of them glued onto one fin.
IMG_20160224_172850.jpg

They don't sit down perfectly flush, but the gaps are easily blended with wood glue:
IMG_20160227_133403.jpg

I have started on installation of the wings, but will wait until that's all done before posting photos. I also decided to make another modification in the middle where those fins are going, so I will share the details of that in the next post as well.

Happy Monday!,

BC
 
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The wings are on! It was pretty straight forward with these. Wood glue behind and in front of the fin tab, aligned with the rear fin, and taped in place to dry. I did this with the forward air frame dry fitted for spacing. I didn't get a picture of the tape somehow, but here is a fin curing. I put glue along the joint as well once it was in.
IMG_20160227_133132.jpg

After they were all set up, the forward body tube piece was removed.
IMG_20160227_132300.jpg

Here is a view of the inside.
IMG_20160302_192342.jpg

Next I mixed up a generous pool of 5 minute epoxy and doused the fin tabs using a 2 foot long piece of 1/4" dowel. Neatness was not a process requirement here.
IMG_20160302_194007.jpg

Next, I added the remaining unused 24mm ID centering ring that came with the kit to act as a baffle to prevent recovery from falling too far during acceleration. I simply scuffed up both sides and used more wood glue.
IMG_20160302_195151.jpg

IMG_20160302_195212.jpg

IMG_20160302_195224.jpg

Ultimately, I didn't end up with much glue on top of the baffle to work as a fillet where it joins to the upper body tube, so I may go back and add another messy round of epoxy down there later.

Next, it was finally time to install the upper body tube.
IMG_20160302_195523.jpg

IMG_20160302_195827.jpg

After cleaning that joint up and letting it cure, I cutout and test fit the first wing bracket. Fits perfect and looks awesome!
IMG_20160302_200511.jpg

I should have these all cutout and installed this weekend, which I plan to do with a combination of wood glue and thin CA.

Cheers,

BC
 
The wings are on! It was pretty straight forward with these. Wood glue behind and in front of the fin tab, aligned with the rear fin, and taped in place to dry. I did this with the forward air frame dry fitted for spacing. I didn't get a picture of the tape somehow, but here is a fin curing. I put glue along the joint as well once it was in.
View attachment 283936

After they were all set up, the forward body tube piece was removed.
View attachment 283935

Here is a view of the inside.
View attachment 283926

Next I mixed up a generous pool of 5 minute epoxy and doused the fin tabs using a 2 foot long piece of 1/4" dowel. Neatness was not a process requirement here.
View attachment 283928

Next, I added the remaining unused 24mm ID centering ring that came with the kit to act as a baffle to prevent recovery from falling too far during acceleration. I simply scuffed up both sides and used more wood glue.
View attachment 283929

View attachment 283930

View attachment 283931

Ultimately, I didn't end up with much glue on top of the baffle to work as a fillet where it joins to the upper body tube, so I may go back and add another messy round of epoxy down there later.

Next, it was finally time to install the upper body tube.
View attachment 283932

View attachment 283933

After cleaning that joint up and letting it cure, I cutout and test fit the first wing bracket. Fits perfect and looks awesome!
View attachment 283934

I should have these all cutout and installed this weekend, which I plan to do with a combination of wood glue and thin CA.

Cheers,

BC



Those Wing Brackets do look sweet!


Thanks for the Email too.
 
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