NAR vs Tripoli; which and when should I join?

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ActingLikeAKid

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I hope this doesn't launch a flamewar....

I just had a quick look at the NAR and Tripoli pages; looks like membership is $60-70 a year. I get that I need a membership to get HPR certified (though I'm quite certain that having fun with MPR will last me for some time).

...Apart from the certification opportunities, the magazine, and the liability insurance (which, if I'm launching with a local club, I should be covered, I think) .... is there a reason for someone noodling around with LPR and MPR to get a membership? If so, which one?
 
I think the clubs will require membership in one or the other..
Even the clubs that are independent and have their own insurance
require membership in one or the other...
Being content for the moment with medium power is fine, ,
we've all been there...lol...
I'd think either will suit your purpose. ...

Teddy
 
and the liability insurance (which, if I'm launching with a local club, I should be covered, I think) ....

No, they are covered, not you.

Join the organization that bet fits with your club membership (if you plan on certifying HPR).
 
Either one will get you the insurance you need, and you're welcome at any sanctioned launch regardless of whether the club is NAR or TRA affiliated. Some clubs have both affiliations. The primary difference is that NAR conducts competitions and promotes educational activities (such as TARC), while TRA is all about HPR and they allow research launches (i.e. making your own motors, within reason). There's room for having both, if your interests are wide enough (and you have a lot of time on your hands!)
 
I hope this doesn't launch a flamewar....

I just had a quick look at the NAR and Tripoli pages; looks like membership is $60-70 a year. I get that I need a membership to get HPR certified (though I'm quite certain that having fun with MPR will last me for some time).

...Apart from the certification opportunities, the magazine, and the liability insurance (which, if I'm launching with a local club, I should be covered, I think) .... is there a reason for someone noodling around with LPR and MPR to get a membership? If so, which one?

Both! For the cost of a J motor you join and support and second great club.
 
No, they are covered, not you.

Join the organization that bet fits with your club membership (if you plan on certifying HPR).

Actually, for Tripoli launches, "they" are not covered either. From the Tripoli insurance FAQ:

Who is liable if an uninsured flier causes and incident?
The launch organizers may be held liable if they chose to allow uninsured Adult fliers to participate. This includes both model rocket and high power fliers.

Jim
 
The main factor in choosing generally comes down to the affiliation of your local club/launches. If the launches that you will typically fly at are affiliated with one but not the other, then there's your decision (ie: go with that one).
This will be important when it comes to things like getting your certifications and such. If you are NAR yourself, but your club doesn't have any NAR members that can sign off on your cert flights, administer tests, etc., then you are out of luck. The same goes with TRA prefects.

That said, many clubs are affiliated with both. And you can fly as a NAR member at TRA launches, or as a TRA member at NAR launches, so it's not critical. It IS a good to be a member of at least one (and required in many instances). Either is great, and both will serve your purposes. They both "cross over" on most every aspect. You can fly any commercial motor, from A to O impulse, at NAR or TRA events. Both serve the sport in MANY ways including advocacy, outreach, securing launch sites, managing safety, INSURANCE coverage, HPR certifications, and more.

So how do you choose when the choice is not so obvious? NAR is generally more focused on LPR/MPR than TRA is. NAR is definitely more focused on competition stuff (especially when it comes to LPR/MPR). TRA allows "research" motors, which is for much more advanced flyers. NAR is more of the "nice guys", and TRA is more of the "hardcore outlaw".

These are NOT hard and fast rules, and like I said there is plenty of crossover but.....
--If you are new to the sport, generally flying "smaller" motors, are interested in competition flying, than NAR is probably your choice.
--If you are only interested in bigger HPR, want to cook and fly your own propellant, than you should probably go with TRA
--If you don't fit exactly into either of the two categories above, either NAR or TRA will do just fine. Or perhaps even both!

I belong to both.
s6
 
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I am happy to support both. But S6 nailed it: TRA has experimental motors and a mentorship program; NAR has competitions and a junior cert program. I find NAR's rules for certifying to be slightly easier than TRA's.
 
I think nice guys and outlaws is far more a factor of your local clubs than the national organization.
 
Perhaps he is referring to Tripoli's origins. Back when NAR was the only game in town and tried to keep motors limited to D and under. Tripoli and LDRS paved the way for HPR, much to NAR's objections. Once TRA took off, then NAR added HPR to its resume.
 
Don't read too much into it. It's really not that much of "a thing".

It's just that in my experience, it seems like compared to each other many of NAR folks/clubs I've been around have been more of the clean-cut/nice-guy/by-the-books/upstanding-citizen types, while many of the TRA folks/clubs have been outlaw/cowboy/rough-and-tumble/play-hard-&-fast types.

Or you could look at it this way: NAR is more Tim VanMilligan/Apogee, and TRA is more Tim Lehr/Wildman.

But really, it's NOT something to be all that concerned with, or to put much focus on. It was more of a joke really.

s6
 
Don't read too much into it. It's really not that much of "a thing".

It's just that in my experience, it seems like compared to each other many of NAR folks/clubs I've been around have been more of the clean-cut/nice-guy/by-the-books/upstanding-citizen types, while many of the TRA folks/clubs have been outlaw/cowboy/rough-and-tumble/play-hard-&-fast types.

Or you could look at it this way: NAR is more Tim VanMilligan/Apogee, and TRA is more Tim Lehr/Wildman.

But really, it's NOT something to be all that concerned with, or to put much focus on. It was more of a joke really.

s6

hahahahahaha,,
man did I get a chuckle off of that one....
Thank you man...
Great analogy....

Teddy
 
As J motors aren't under the slightest consideration for me due to cost, I don't think that's a very good way to put it. And anyone considering a J has probably already been a member anyway.

I've enjoyed doing some low-end HPR (actually G skids are making it worthwhile) but don't know I would have ever joined without my main club forcing my hand. One membership is almost 20% of my rocketry budget, if I was even poorer I'd have a choice between joining and flying.
 
I hope this doesn't launch a flamewar....

I just had a quick look at the NAR and Tripoli pages; looks like membership is $60-70 a year. I get that I need a membership to get HPR certified (though I'm quite certain that having fun with MPR will last me for some time).

...Apart from the certification opportunities, the magazine, and the liability insurance (which, if I'm launching with a local club, I should be covered, I think) .... is there a reason for someone noodling around with LPR and MPR to get a membership? If so, which one?
I belong to both. Your membership will be a small fraction of what you spend in a year and the benefits far exceeds the costs.

Only NAR or TRA members have personal liability coverage at either groups launches. You as a flyer have none, and in the worst case scenario you still could be sued individually if you were a launch participant (launched a rocket) and all launch participants were sued, even though you had nothing to do with the property damage or injury. For personal protection you could add an umbrella polity to you house and car insurance, but you will have to maximize those policies first and then pay an additional several hundred dollars to get a $2M umbrella policy....which is going to be at least 5 times the cost of NAR or TRA dues......

TRA Prefectures have no insurance coverage for uninsured participants so if you have an accident so they should require you to have either TRA or NAR membership.

NAR Sections are protected if a person who is not a member of NAR or TRA launch a model rocket that causes damage. If it was a high power rocket, it would be a violation of the NAR safety code which requires high power certification which is only valid if you are a member of NAR or TRA.

Both NAR and TRA offer a $5,000,000 primary liability insurance policy for they members. The NAR pays about $50K-S60K for their insurance policy. With ~6,000 members, that's about $10 per member, or about 16% of the NAR dues (the magazine and other publications accounts for slightly more than 50% or ~$32 per member. TRA pays ~$110K for their insurance policy. With ~3,800 members, that's about $30 per member, or about half of the $60 annual dues. (Numbers are complied from a number of sources without going back and verifying them for currency.)

TRA insurance covers your minor children, NAR's does not. TRA insurance is world-wide, NAR covers you activities in the US and Canada.

The bottom line is that it is to your advantage to join whichever organization that you local club is affiliated with. $60 which is about $1.20 per week is a cheap premium for a $5,000,000 liability policy.

Bob
 
As a member of both I'm just trying to think of differences that have not been pointed out yet.

If you have young people who are interested in delving into high power the NAR has it's Junior cert program for 14-17 year olds while Tripoli has it's mentoring program for those who are 12-17.

The two organizations are more alike than they are different but there are several subtle differences that make one or the other more inviting. By taking advantage of membership in both you have the best of both worlds.
 
As J motors aren't under the slightest consideration for me due to cost, I don't think that's a very good way to put it. And anyone considering a J has probably already been a member anyway.

I've enjoyed doing some low-end HPR (actually G skids are making it worthwhile) but don't know I would have ever joined without my main club forcing my hand. One membership is almost 20% of my rocketry budget, if I was even poorer I'd have a choice between joining and flying.

This. If I were flying a couple of HPR rockets once a month, plus some MPR and a handful of LPR? HECK YES $70 would be a small percentage of what I'm spending on rocketry. And when I see the guys with literally a couple grand in reload cases burn through a few hundred dollars in motors in a day? YES, absolutely, $70 is a drop in the bucket.

But for me? I just got into MPR, I think it's cool. I might spend $200 or $300 on the hobby this year, so joining both clubs would be a significant chunk on what I'm spending on flying.

That said, the liability insurance is probably the best argument I've seen in this thread.
 
NAR is probably more recognized. It is a larger and older organization. And its name, "National Association of Rocketry," sounds very official. I would venture to guess that most people will discover the NAR before they ever hear of TRA. But when the Mythbusters needed rocket motor experts for their jato car episode, whom did they call? TRA.
 
I find the Tripoli certification program easier. Plus pretty much steers away from friends certifying friends like is possible in NAR
 
I also prefer Tripoli certification to NAR, although it does seem a little heavy handed for L1. Numerous times we have needed to scramble for TAPs or prefects at a launch and at least once had some confusion that resulted in a rejected certification despite successful flight. There was some recent noise about letting anyone L3 sign off on L1 attempts, which would be nice but I have not heard any results.
 
TRA insurance covers your minor children, NAR's does not. TRA insurance is world-wide, NAR covers you activities in the US and Canada.



Bob

Bob, it is my belief that if a minor is not a member of NAR, then both the TRA and NAR insurance provide protection for the club from suits brought by the minor or a third party. However, it is not clear to me what the coverage is to the minor (liability or medical if injured). The TRA insurance information is silent on the subject, and I know the BOD is considering this, and the NAR information suggests that the minor does not have this coverage. Therefore, it is the (evolving) position of our club to require parent/guardian permission for any minor that is not a NAR member (when launching under either set of rules) or a TRA "named insured" (if launching under NAR rules). I'd be interested in your comments on this topic.

Jim

PS - I belong to both organizations so that I can do certifications for both. I don't really see much difference in the process for TRA or NAR for L1/L2 from my perspective as an L3/TAP.
 
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Being a member of both off and on for decades I can contribute that they are NOT the same in fundamental ways. I have my membership numbers but in these older days for me (now almost sixty years old and disabled) having cash for membership dues is HARD to find. I have been with Tripoli from its early days, before insurance. And in those days the NAR board did not take kindly to Tripoli doings and considered them a threat to hobby rocketry. Then I was "confirmed" as a Tripoli member. To this day there is a truth about TRA that many/most members do not care much about model rockets though they certainly support the hobby. I have experienced dozens of examples of rocket flyers moving rapidly up the ladder into high power and not looking back. The learning curve can be steep and rapid with many (Ricki Rocket's "Go Straight to L" model as an example) for those folks and they usually no longer show up to the NAR launches where they started their rocketry journeys. One could say that this happened to ME way back when. I was a far Northern California rocket guy and had little opportunity to fly with a NAR section as I do today because of my rural wilderness home base. When I found high power rocketry, I took the bit and ran with it! Having to drive 250 miles one way for club meetings (I was a club founding member of our Tripoli club) and 400 miles one way to our launch field (Black Rock) went right along with the cost of models and motors. After tens of thousands of dollars and dozens of launches I burnt out from HPR. The desert sun burnt me too. I tamped down my involvement as I aged and as I moved farther into my NAR activities. I still do both but at a recent Airfest I was confronted with the weird example of being asked by the LCO to walk out 800 ft away to K pads to fly a sub 80 newton second eight Estes BP motor cluster that was RSO'ed at the table. I had flown the same model at the NARAM sport launch range from 100 ft which was more manageable and logical. I raised a fuss about this, and declined to do as they asked. I then flew it at out club launch from 50ft a month later. This defines the difference, I think. Having a flyer walk 800 ft to fly seven C and one D motors in a simple cluster was such overkill that I can't forget it and really believe that the divide between the NAR and the TRA was to blame here. I say join both but expect a difficult time integrating the two, occasionally. Our NAR club had a membership schism about the time I joined which revolved around high power, with some members forming an HPR club somewhere in Kansas, never to be heard from again. The bitterness from that time remains with several of our members. Many members who were involved as volunteers with our NAR club have severed their involvement with our NAR club in spite of the NAR high power program because they were more interested in bigger projects and bigger models. Just my opinion.

David Bucher "California Dave"
TRA 829
NAR 47674
 
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Perhaps he is referring to Tripoli's origins. Back when NAR was the only game in town and tried to keep motors limited to D and under. Tripoli and LDRS paved the way for HPR, much to NAR's objections. Once TRA took off, then NAR added HPR to its resume.

Correction: F and under
 
If you are not involved with any local clubs, and you must choose one over the other, then consider what aspects of your hobby give you the most pleasure.

Some people get the most enjoyment from the "build". If you enjoy creating your own designs, or builds that showcase detail and precision (e.g. scale), or if the idea of alternate recovery systems (e.g. "helicopter", or gliders), and the idea of the flight is to validate your design, then I recommend the NAR

If what blows your skirt up is the smoke, and the roar of the motor, and the altitude, and as far as you are concerned, the rocket itself is merely the vehicle to experience the power of the motor, then go with Tripoli.
 
This is still a mostly free country so pursue your happiness as you choose. NAR, Tripoli or Lone Wolf...all, some or none. It's your choice.
 
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