Any one else notice a change to LOCs couplers in the last year or so?

The 4” LOC couplers (3.90”/98mm) I ordered recently from Apogee are NOT as rigid as the ones I ordered in 2014 . The color is slightly darker too, which suggest a change in who or how they are manufactured.

jahall4 said:

The 4” LOC couplers (3.90”/98mm) I ordered recently from Apogee are NOT as rigid as the ones I ordered in 2014 . The color is slightly darker too, which suggest a change in who or how they are manufactured.

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The only thing I noticed about the 5.5" couplers I ordered were that they are 11" long now and the website says they are 9" long.

Edit: My 4" inch couplers don't seem any different than ones in the past, but its been a year since my last 4" coupler was ordered.

Maybe you originally got the "stiffy" thicker walled couplers?
Rather than the normal thin. That would also account for color difference.

I asked LOC about this a couple years ago when I had bought both 3" and 4" couplers (the 3" have thicker walls). Barry assured me that nothing had changed on the 4" coupler for over a decade. I subsequently found some old, new stock I had squirreled away from Al's Hobby Shop (now defunct in Elmhurst, IL) and low-and-behold, same exact 4" coupler.

They are clearly different, so either something has changed within the last couple of years or Apogee shipped something else. Don't the Stiffies go inside the coupler? (https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=422&categoryId=-1) So that can't be what I got before.

jahall4 said:

They are clearly different, so either something has changed within the last couple of years or Apogee shipped something else. Don't the Stiffies go inside the coupler? (https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=422&categoryId=-1) So that can't be what I got before.

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I thought you were speaking about 4" couplers, not 5.5"? Each diameter has slightly differing material thicknesses.

I was asking about the 4" couplers.

Maybe I should x-post to Mid-power? Who do you think uses more 4" mid or high?

jahall4 said:

I was asking about the 4" couplers.

Maybe I should x-post to Mid-power? Who do you think uses more 4" mid or high?

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HPR as most 4" rockets are on the heavy side for MPR.

Ok... what is the issue you are having?

Not stiff enough for your application or just wondering what's going on?
Don't fit ?

blackjack2564 said:

Ok... what is the issue you are having?
...just wondering what's going on?

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Exactly, why the change? The weight and cost savings are negligible so why make/sell a weaker coupler?

But first I was hoping to confirm that there had indeed been a change before I contact Apogee and/or LOC.

jahall4 said:

Exactly, why the change? The weight and cost savings are negligible so why make/sell a weaker coupler?

But first I was hoping to confirm that there had indeed been a change before I contact Apogee and/or LOC.

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See post #4. LOC-Precision denies any changes. Coupler that is 15 years old matches coupler that is two years old. Maybe what you are comparing aren't two LOC couplers? A post of a comparison picture or a couple of micrometer measurements would be useful.

Well thisI know....

Euclid made tubes for them, been around for 40-50 yrs or more. Last year or so, they were bought out/merged with Coburn.
Most of the personal from Euclid has taken retirement,since this deal. There are only 1-2 key people left from Euclid, & every week there are more major changes. I would not be surprised if this may effect the products. A call to Barry at LOC would be best bet for answer. Loc is only an hour from Coburn.
In Nov. I had this discussion with one of those guys still left. He's been working there 42 yrs!

This is common these days, one company buys out another for the customer base.

blackjack2564 said:

Well thisI know....

Euclid made tubes for them, been around for 40-50 yrs or more. Last year or so, they were bought out/merged with Coburn.
Most of the personal from Euclid has taken retirement,since this deal. There are only 1-2 key people left from Euclid, & every week there are more major changes. I would not be surprised if this may effect the products. A call to Barry at LOC would be best bet for answer. Loc is only an hour from Coburn.
In Nov. I had this discussion with one of those guys still left. He's been working there 42 yrs!

This is common these days, one company buys out another for the customer base.

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This is an enlightening post. Recently we got a whole shipment from them and the quality was suspect and they had to replace it. Gloria retired just before that order was placed. Are you referring to Coburn the company that makes optical machinery? I've been using their equipment for about 30 years.

dixontj93060 said:

See post #4. LOC-Precision denies any changes. Coupler that is 15 years old matches coupler that is two years old. Maybe what you are comparing aren't two LOC couplers? A post of a comparison picture or a couple of micrometer measurements would be useful.

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Nope, If you will read my posts more carefully you'll see that all the couplers I'm comparing are LESS than 2 years old. So post #4 may or may not be applicable. Jim Hendricksen's post about the change in manufacture is the right time frame "last year". Thx Jim, that's just what I was hoping for! Unfortunate that Coburn can't or won't make the product to the same specs. I'll give Apogee a call first since they may not be aware of the change. Barry if you are following... I'd gladly pay a little extra on something like tubes to make sure I get the same thing.

BTW, and this is the cynic in me... If one makes the standard coupler weaker it sort of forces more folks to buy the Stiffy does it not?

Anyone else noticed the change?

jahall4 said:

Nope, If you will read my posts more carefully you'll see that all the couplers I'm comparing are LESS than 2 years old. So post #4 may or may not be applicable. Jim Hendricksen's post about the change in manufacture is the right time frame "last year". Thx Jim, that's just what I was hoping for! Unfortunate that Coburn can't or won't make the product to the same specs. I'll give Apogee a call first since they may not be aware of the change. Barry if you are following... I'd gladly pay a little extra on something like tubes to make sure I get the same thing.

Anyone else noticed the change?

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Jeez, now we're starting more rumors regarding "derelict suppliers." Before this thread goes down that rathole, take a micrometer out and measure the thickness of your couplers. I was surprised that the 4" coupler is substantially thinner than 3" or 5.5" and it says that right on LOC's spec sheet. If it is in fact out of spec then give Barry a call, but don't start spreading rumors that his supply chain is screwed up.

Call or Email Barry, I would almost guarantee that he wouldn't sell a inferior/out of spec product.

dixontj93060 said:

Jeez, now we're starting more rumors regarding "derelict suppliers." Before this thread goes down that rathole, take a micrometer out and measure the thickness of your couplers. I was surprised that the 4" coupler is substantially thinner than 3" or 5.5" and it says that right on LOC's spec sheet. If it is in fact out of spec then give Barry a call, but don't start spreading rumors that his supply chain is screwed up.

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It's not a "rumor" in that the couplers are different. They clearly are. I noticed a difference just unpacking the latest shipment and only then decided to compare them. It is a disappointment to think you are purchasing one thing, but then receive something that is not quite as good.

No one mentioned anything about "derelict suppliers" and a "screwed up" "supply chain" except YOU. So, if we have started down a rathole you dug it. ;-)

rharshberger said:

Call or Email Barry, I would almost guarantee that he wouldn't sell a inferior/out of spec product.

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Rich, I don't know that I would consider it "inferior" in the way the word is typically used. The coupler is noticeably less rigid. Is there a published LOC spec for rigidity or stiffness? I guess it could be measured as deflection or compression of the coupler?

jahall4 said:

Rich, I don't know that I would consider it "inferior" in the way the word is typically used. The coupler is noticeably less rigid. Is there a published LOC spec for rigidity or stiffness? I guess it could be measured as deflection or compression of the coupler?

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I doubt there is a published spec for it, but if Loc starts getting failures related to it they won't be happy. Personally I double/stiffy or fiberglass the insides of my couplers so the starting point is not as important to me. The other thing is that the change in materials/appearnce may have no effect if it is equivalent to the preceeding product. Best thing is to ask these questions of Barry he will know the answers.

jahall4 said:

It's not a "rumor" in that the couplers are different. They clearly are. I noticed a difference just unpacking the latest shipment and only then decided to compare them. It is a disappointment to think you are purchasing one thing, but then receive something that is not quite as good.

No one mentioned anything about "derelict suppliers" and a "screwed up" "supply chain" except YOU. So, if we have started down a rathole you dug it. ;-)

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You clearly are dinging the supply chain by this comment: "Unfortunate that Coburn can't or won't make the product to the same specs." BTW, you have no way of knowing this, so clearly a rumor.

Derelict suppliers refers to a recent extended bout between TRF members and a certain supplier. The thread went on for pages and pages without most getting in contact with the supplier. My point is call the vendor directly and solve the problem without spreading negativity.

Below are the LOC-Precision coupler specs. As shown the 4" coupler is around a couple thousands thinner than the 3" and 5.5".

Binder Design said:

This is an enlightening post. Recently we got a whole shipment from them and the quality was suspect and they had to replace it. Gloria retired just before that order was placed. Are you referring to Coburn the company that makes optical machinery? I've been using their equipment for about 30 years.

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If you remember Gloria....then you may have had contact with Mark. He's the only one with full knowledge, left out of original crew. I was at Amherst Ohio, launch in Dec when we talked about the takeover. I would contact him for the scoop.
I've known Mark for years. Last spring when I called "Euclid" and asked to speak with him, Gloria was gone & the person had no idea who Mark was.[at that time] This all came about when I asked if he was still there & told him about my call. Then he explained what & why, he didn't get it. They had moved him & since put him back where he was.

We did NOT discuss quality or change of product manufacture, just the current status and recent changes. I have no idea if any changes in production have been made. He did mention the new owners main office was in Indiana.

dixontj93060 said:

...you have no way of knowing this, so clearly a rumor.

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Sure I do, I have multiples of both "versions" in-hand, the later set is clearly not as rigid.

dixontj93060 said:

Derelict suppliers refers to a recent extended bout between TRF members and a certain supplier. The thread went on for pages and pages without most getting in contact with the supplier. My point is call the vendor directly and solve the problem without spreading negativity.

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Why would you make a veiled reference to another post about another vendor that has nothing to do with this issue and then say I'm being negative. Its you that has done that. You used those words. Why are you being so negative?

dixontj93060 said:

Below are the LOC-Precision coupler specs. As shown the 4" coupler is around a couple thousands thinner than the 3" and 5.5".

View attachment 281170

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Why do you keep bring up other size couplers?

And finally the is no rigidity or stiffness spec in the table, wall thickness is not the only variable determining the rigidity of a tube. Why do you keep bring it up?

The only issue I've had is when they packed up the wrong sled size with the HyperLoc 835, which they quickly resolved with one phone call. Barry is a star.

Crash-n-burn's post suggests Simply Complex has hijacked this thread and taken it down his "Rat hole". This post is NOT about bashing Barry or LOC. This was a simple question asking if any one else has noticed a change in the 4" coupler. Jim has been kind enough to comment on what he knows about a change in ownership of LOC's manf. which may be the reason the couplers have changed.

If anyone is interested in a comparison of specs I'll see if I can determine if the tube material is less dense? I suspect it is.

jahall4 said:

Sure I do, I have multiples of both "versions" in-hand, the later set is clearly not as rigid.

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You took this out of context. The rumor I was referring to (the one you know nothing about), is whether LOC's supposed supplier actually cannot or will not meet their spec. I quoted this clearly in my post so I was in no way speaking about couplers in your possession as you mistakenly reference. In fact, earlier I suggested you post a picture of the couplers in question so we can compare them to the half dozen we all likely have sitting around and get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

jahall4 said:

Why would you make a veiled reference to another post about another vendor that has nothing to do with this issue and then say I'm being negative. Its you that has done that. You used those words. Why are you being so negative?

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Because that "well known" thread was detrimental to TRF and to the vendor's reputation. Most of the damage in that thread was done before the majority of TRF members participating made their first call to said vendor. I saw this thread going exactly the same way. This is why I suggested you, 1) provide data evidence so we could help diagnose the problem, 2) refrain from negative comments about the vendor and/or their supply/supply chain, and 3) simply call the vendor with your issue.

jahall4 said:

Why do you keep bring up other size couplers?

And finally the is no rigidity or stiffness spec in the table, wall thickness is not the only variable determining the rigidity of a tube. Why do you keep bring it up?

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I bring up other size couplers because when you compare the 4" dia. to any other LOC coupler, it seems soft and weak. The dominate reason it is "soft and weak" is due to wall thickness. This is because all LOC tubes are made of the same material, Kraft paper, a laminate of paper and adhesive. Kraft paper has basic strength specs (tensile, compressive, flexural, etc.) that are consistent and change very little. This is especially the case with couplers that don't add an outer waxed layer like an airframe. So, with all other material attributes being equal, in the end thickness is the primary factor in perceived stiffness/strength/rigidity.

dixontj93060 said:

?...from Al's Hobby Shop (now defunct in Elmhurst, IL) and low-and-behold, same exact 4" coupler.

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Al's Hobby Shop. Now that is a blast from the past. Last time I was in Al's was 1972 when it was on 1st Street. Used to sell little bottles of KNO3 for chemistry sets that were very popular among us kids in the neighborhood. Probably no way a 13 year old gets his hands on that stuff these days. Sorry to hear it is gone, but thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Are you sure that your original 2014 couplers are LOC? They may just be LOC compatible. Especially if ordered through a 3rd party where they may have upgraded you without your knowledge.

dixontj93060 said:

You took this out of context. The rumor I was referring to (the one you know nothing about), is whether LOC's supposed supplier actually cannot or will not meet their spec. I quoted this clearly in my post so I was in no way speaking about couplers in your possession as you mistakenly reference. In fact, earlier I suggested you post a picture of the couplers in question so we can compare them to the half dozen we all likely have sitting around and get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

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Now you are just trying to walk this back. I didn't take anything out of context, you injected something into the context of this post that was not relevant. And BTW I never said anything about "Meeting their spec" I said the "same" spec clearly the couplers don't have the same specs.

I saw this thread going exactly the same way.

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You did huh? Self appointed moderator? BTW.... I said I would contact Apogee (the "Vendor") apparently you missed that,

I bring up other size couplers because when you compare the 4" dia. to any other LOC coupler, it seems soft and weak. The dominate reason it is "soft and weak" is due to wall thickness. This is because all LOC tubes are made of the same material, Kraft paper, a laminate of paper and adhesive.

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Again, what's with you and other sizes of couplers? I WAS NOT COMPARING OTHER SIZE COUPLERS!

Kraft paper has basic strength specs (tensile, compressive, flexural, etc.) that are consistent and change very little. This is especially the case with couplers that don't add an outer waxed layer like an airframe. So, with all other material attributes being equal, in the end thickness is the primary factor in perceived stiffness/strength/rigidity.

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BS, simply not the case and this very coupler issue proves it as both versions of have nearly the same thickness, but weigh different: Old = 37g, New = 30g Delta of over 20%. So the specs are not the same.

Binder Design said:

Are you sure that your original 2014 couplers are LOC? They may just be LOC compatible. Especially if ordered through a 3rd party where they may have upgraded you without your knowledge.

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That's a good question, and why I'm calling Apogee first. Both orders say "3.90" (98mm) LOC Coupler". I checked before I posted to TRF. If the original couplers were not LOC then that's bad, but I don't think Tim sells two different types of kraft 4" couplers.

jahall4 said:

Now you are just trying to walk this back. I didn't take anything out of context, you injected something into the context of this post that was not relevant. And BTW I never said anything about "Meeting their spec" I said the "same" spec clearly the couplers don't have the same specs.



You did huh? Self appointed moderator? BTW.... I said I would contact Apogee (the "Vendor") apparently you missed that,



Again, what's with you and other sizes of couplers? I WAS NOT COMPARING OTHER SIZE COUPLERS!



BS, simply not the case and this very coupler issue proves it as both versions of have nearly the same thickness, but weigh different: Old = 37g, New = 30g Delta of over 20%. So the specs are not the same.

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Circular and idiotic reasoning. First rule of life: "Don't let others impress their insanity on you", thus I give up. Blow your horn, beat your drum, drag others down, whatever you want. I'll put you on ignore and you can go on your merry way.