Puffy Lipo?

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Exactimator

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Camera battery.jpg

One of my 808 cams wasn't holding charge so I opened it up. When I got the second screw out, something inside pushed the cover off. The battery looked like a pillow. It's a bit squishy. I opened another for comparison and there's no puffiness. I would assume the puffiness isn't good.

Can someone tell me what happened and what might have caused it? Is there any Lipo technique to restore it? Or do I just dispose of it? Any problem swapping batteries between cameras? The pillow one is one of the good ones from Bayou Rat. The other is a cheap Chinese special.
 
Shorted battery. Do not attempt to charge or use--fire may result (google LiPo fires; it's not pretty). Replace battery and dispose of the puffy one.


Later!

--Coop
 
Puffy lipo is very bad. Do NOT attempt to charge or use.
Dispose of (in some place that can't catch fire, such as the trash bin under your sink)

s6
 
Shorted battery. Do not attempt to charge or use--fire may result (google LiPo fires; it's not pretty). Replace battery and dispose of the puffy one.


Later!

--Coop

If the battery was truly shorted, it would have done more than that. I have seen lipos that were shorted out for just a few seconds do this, (on their way to thermal runaway before going critical, but shorting stopped in time), but I do not think the lipo shorted out in the camera.

I own well over 100 lipos of all sizes from 60 mAh single cells to 6 cell 5000 mAh packs. I fly a lot of electric RC aircraft.

The puff is created by O2 gas chemically generated in the pack. It means that the battery has experienced one of the following:

1. It was left fully charged for a long period of time.
2. The battery has aged out after several years.
3. The battery was discharged at a high rate beyond its capabilities.
4. The battery was over discharged below optimum storage voltage of around 3.7-3.8 bolts per cell.
5. The battery was stored in an area with high temps...over room temp to 100 plus degrees, like a garage or a car in the summer.
6. Defects from the factory that reduce normal life.

It is not uncommon for cheap lipos with high internal resistance to puff in a short life of normal use. One common issue that appears to affect this is poor QC at the factory and poor environmental control at the factory.

I have never seen a puffed lipo self destruct just because it was puffed. The vast majority of lipo fires come from impact damage causing internal shorts, overcharging and extended shorting of the leads of more than a moment or two.

I personally have numerous hundreds of flights on slightly puffed lipos. As long as you monitor them for temp after discharge and treat them a little more gently than a normal pack, they are good for many more cycles at slightly less of a discharge rate.

Thoroughly puffed lipos need to be disposed of and not used again.

This battery looks to be pretty thoroughly puffed and should be discharged to zero and disposed of.

Should not be hard to replace the lipo in the camera.
 
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Thanks guys. I didn't realize lipos were so temperamental. I swapped out batteries and the good camera's alive again.
 
Thanks guys. I didn't realize lipos were so temperamental. I swapped out batteries and the good camera's alive again.
They are indeed. When I purchased an RC plane for my son at Christmas, the shop told me "if you have animals, keep these things away". One bite could be very bad!
 
View attachment 280053

One of my 808 cams wasn't holding charge so I opened it up. When I got the second screw out, something inside pushed the cover off. The battery looked like a pillow. It's a bit squishy. I opened another for comparison and there's no puffiness. I would assume the puffiness isn't good.

Can someone tell me what happened and what might have caused it? Is there any Lipo technique to restore it? Or do I just dispose of it? Any problem swapping batteries between cameras? The pillow one is one of the good ones from Bayou Rat. The other is a cheap Chinese special.
The battery is finished. Do not attempt to charge it.

Are you using a LiPo battery charger, and if you are, is the charger working properly. It looks like the battery may have been charged to 5 volts by a defective USB charger for an extended period of time. True LiPo chargers have a microcontroller inside that determines the condition of the battery before the charge is started. If the battery voltage is too low, most will not attempt to recharge the battery. Most LiPo chargers charge at a constant current to a fixed voltage, then finish charging to a fixed voltage, then charge at a very low current for a short period of time and then disconnect the charging circuit. https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

LiPo batteries should never be charged above 4.2 volts per cell, nor discharged below 3.0 volts per cell because irreversible changes occur inside the battery, however your batteries will actually last a lot longer if you only charge to 4.0 volts and never discharge below 3.3 volts. The 2 plots below show a slightly more different adaptation of this long life technique which is for batteries with a nominal labeling of 1200 mah. (Ignore-and what a battery gas gauge figures is the capacity of the battery.)

discharge_curves.jpg AMPD14_DischargeCurve.jpgEdit: Ignore this second plot. It is obviously wrong.

The chemistry of LiPo batteries is complex. While you can charge a LiPo battery to 4.2 volts, it will rapidly self discharge within 48 hours to 4.0 volts and then stabilize. If you do not plan to use a LiPo for an extended period of time, it should be charged or discharge to ~3.7 volts.

Do not discharge the battery either, and as they are considered hazardous material, you should not throw them in the trash. Recycle your batteries at you local recycling center.

Bob
 
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All the keychain cams I've seen are charged by plugging into a USB port. There is no charge protection circuit and leaving plugged in too long *will* kill the battery. That's one reason they are so cheap.
 
All the keychain cams I've seen are charged by plugging into a USB port. There is no charge protection circuit and leaving plugged in too long *will* kill the battery. That's one reason they are so cheap.

I have a couple of small cameras that charge through a USB port, plus a small video screen unit with built in 5.8 GHz RX, plus about a dozen small quads and multi rotor models that charge the same way. All one cell chargers.

The USB chargers that have an LED indicator typically do reasonably well at stopping the charge at around 4.2. The ones that came with my cameras stopped at around the correct voltage. I have found one or two that are not calibrated correctly and allow the cell to be charged as high as 4.4-4.5 volts. Those I discard.

The other issue sometimes seen with the cheap USB charge cords is charge rate. This can vary from around 1c to as high as 3-5c. Charging low C lipos at high C typically kills them off early.

On the subject of lipo minimum voltage, the RC world is quite set on not discharging any lipo below 3.7v (stabilized minimum after resting after discharge). To continually discharge lower reduces the life span.
 
There are numerous online sites showing how to discharge LIPO batteries prior to disposal using a salt water bath.
 
That's impressive. I've had a few puffy lipo's but nothing like the fat boy you have!!! Head the advice and dispose of the battery. Lipo's are great. I use them all the time but cheap batteries and cheap chargers can be problematic!!
 
I've also heard of people using 12V tail light bulbs to do this also.

In other words, like the others have noted, a puffed lipo is usually shot in most cases. It MAY still work depending on how much it is puffed but more than likely the total capacity and discharge ratings would be reduced significantly.

I personally wouldn't chance it. Replacing a lipo is cheap compared to having to potentially replace your house and everything in it should the battery decide to self-destruct. A regular fire extinguisher will NOT extinguish these as it is a chemical reaction. IIRC, the only fire extinguisher that will extinguish lipo fires is a Class D which are VERY expensive.

I also run several electric boats, helis and now a small 2S powered Eflite UMX Pitts S1-S. I have several myself ranging in size from little 1S 150 mAh ones to a 3S 5,000 mAh pack that I use in my boats.

Want to see a MAJOR fire, look up 6S lipo fire on Youtube and you'll see what I mean.
 
Okay, so if I understand everyone correctly, I should hook the lipo up to a car battery, hold it between my teeth, and stab it with a pitchfork to relieve the pressure before I throw it on my pile of oily rags. I'll wear safety glasses while I do it. Because safety first.

I probably overcharged the battery, since I only have simple USB chargers. Does anyone know about how long I should charge? Is overnight too long?
 
with my fancy charger it normally takes about an hr to charge a lipo that has been taken down to 20% charge, based on the charger I got with my micro heli...about 20 minutes should suffice(or less. depends on the battery rating, a 110mah takes about 20 min.), overnight is a no-no in many regards mainly the untended charging.
Rex
 
with my fancy charger it normally takes about an hr to charge a lipo that has been taken down to 20% charge, based on the charger I got with my micro heli...about 20 minutes should suffice(or less. depends on the battery rating, a 110mah takes about 20 min.), overnight is a no-no in many regards mainly the untended charging.
Rex

There's my problem right there. I was charging for a few hours at a time. Plus I was using a simple charger to do it. Thanks for the schooling, everyone.
 
There's my problem right there. I was charging for a few hours at a time. Plus I was using a simple charger to do it.
No, I don't think this explains it. I don't recommend overnight charging, of course, but even the simple 1-cell USB chargers have charge shutoff so if they're working correctly you can't overcharge. I think it's likely that your cell was just bad upon arrival, or your USB charger is defective.
 
A standard USB port sources 5 Vdc @ 0.5 amps. A USB 3 port sources 5 Vdc @ 2 amps. USB chargers are all over the place with common ones supplying 5 Vdc @ 0.5, 1 or 2 amps. If the charging regulator is working properly, it should shut off when the battery is fully charged, however if the charging regulator is defective, or the battery is defective, bad things can happen.

The instructions with your charger should provide you with the approximate charging time for your battery if you know the mah rating of the battery. If you look at your single cell LiPo you should see a mah rating. If the rating was 200 mah, then the recharge time for this battery with a 0.5 amp charger is potentially as short as 0.2/0.5 = 0.4 hr = 24 minutes maximum if the regulator is broken and the battery fully discharged, and it would be charging at .5/.2 = 2.5 C. If you used a 2 amp charger, if the regulator was broken, the maximum charge time is potentially as short as 0.2/2 = 0.1 hours = 6 minutes at a 2/0.2 = 10 C charge rate if the battery is fully discharged, and a 10C charge is way too fast for a small camera battery.

A properly functioning charger may take 2 or 3 times longer to charge the battery than the above minimum times if it follows the 4 part charging methods I mention in one of the above posts, but not all USB chargers are smart chargers so thus a concern.

A good charger should have either red/green leds to indicate a charging or charged battery, or better yet a volt meter or lcd display with more info. Monitor the charging of these small batteries for time to full charge. Once the battery is charged, it's best to disconnect it just incase the charging regulator isn't working properly.

Bob
 
That lipo is HUGE! be careful with it. cells can also puff up from physical damage. something rockets are good at. I've had lipos puff when trying to charge after a crash (RC plane) even when using a good charger.
 
toss that battery and please please spend about $24.00+ for a real battery charger...
Normally the battery is inside the camera and can be charged by attaching the camera to a USB port. It'd be a bit of a PITA to constantly open the camera up just to charge it. In my experience the built-in charger is perfectly adequate. I had one 808 that came with a bad battery, and I think that's what's happened here, or perhaps the charge circuit is defective. Chinese QA is often not great, but the sellers will often replace bad units.
 
Normally the battery is inside the camera and can be charged by attaching the camera to a USB port. It'd be a bit of a PITA to constantly open the camera up just to charge it. In my experience the built-in charger is perfectly adequate. I had one 808 that came with a bad battery, and I think that's what's happened here, or perhaps the charge circuit is defective. Chinese QA is often not great, but the sellers will often replace bad units.

Agreed. I have checked the final charge state of various 1S lipos after hours of being connected on various USB chargers and I think I found just one, perhaps two that were taking the lipo to too high of a voltage. The vast majority are working as designed.

Realistically, in the case of this tiny camera lipo, it was likely defective from the factory and simply failed into puff mode early.
 
I agree with both of you. I believe the charge regulator is usually on the camera board so you really should not have a charger issue unless the on-board regulator is bad.

New LiPos are either good or bad. A good manufacturer should cycle the batteries a few times to weed out the bad ones, but I'll guess that many small Chinese manufacturers don't. Batteries should be charged to 3.7 volts for shipping and if that is the only thing done before shipping, you will discover the bad battery after one or two charges.

I'd contact the camera supplier and see what they will do. They might just send a battery or another camera.

Bob
 
All the keychain cams I've seen are charged by plugging into a USB port. There is no charge protection circuit and leaving plugged in too long *will* kill the battery. That's one reason they are so cheap.

All the 808 cameras we sell have charge protection circuitry. We test the camera and the charge circuits before shipping. Yes they are cheap but safe. :cool:
 
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There's my problem right there. I was charging for a few hours at a time. Plus I was using a simple charger to do it. Thanks for the schooling, everyone.

All BayouRat Rocketry 808 cameras have charge protection circuitry built into the camera. We test this functionality in each camera before shipping. However if the battery is damaged in anyway we do not recommend attempting to charge it.
Never charge unattended and never charge for more then 1.5 hours. Also a maintenance charge every three months is recommended. This is a simple single cell LiPo and it should give you years of use. No fancy multi cell charger needed.
 
I agree with both of you. I believe the charge regulator is usually on the camera board so you really should not have a charger issue unless the on-board regulator is bad.

New LiPos are either good or bad. A good manufacturer should cycle the batteries a few times to weed out the bad ones, but I'll guess that many small Chinese manufacturers don't. Batteries should be charged to 3.7 volts for shipping and if that is the only thing done before shipping, you will discover the bad battery after one or two charges.

I'd contact the camera supplier and see what they will do. They might just send a battery or another camera.

Bob

I am offering a replacement camera and battery at no cost to the customer. Even with it being two years since he purchased it. We have a 100% customer satisfaction policy. We love our customers and appreciate there business.
 
I am offering a replacement camera and battery at no cost to the customer. Even with it being two years since he purchased it. We have a 100% customer satisfaction policy. We love our customers and appreciate there business.

I got your e-mail, Whitney. Thanks for replacing despite the age and me not following best lipo practices.
 
I am offering a replacement camera and battery at no cost to the customer. Even with it being two years since he purchased it. We have a 100% customer satisfaction policy. We love our customers and appreciate there business.
You have a stellar reputation Whitney. I hope the folks here understand this and buy their 808 cams from you. That way they will know they are getting a good product and not one of the cheap knockoffs.

Bob
 
I am offering a replacement camera and battery at no cost to the customer. Even with it being two years since he purchased it. We have a 100% customer satisfaction policy. We love our customers and appreciate there business.

Now, that is outstanding service above and beyond the call of duty!
 
I have a different Lipo than what is discussed above. However, it has got puffy although it may be hard to see in the photo's. The good battery has a velcro strip on it. I found an internet post that says to dissolve 1/2 cup of salt in cold water and let the lipo soak for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks remove the battery wrap it in newspaper and dispose as regular trash.
IMG_3589.jpg IMG_3590.jpg IMG_3591.jpg
 
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Puffy Lipos is generally a result of contamination during the manufacturing of the battery. The battery normally wont puff untill after up to 10 charge discharge cycles. I am not that well versed of the chemistry as to why it puffs, but what actually is inflating the battery is the solvent that the electrodes are soaked in.

That salt water method as shown does not make the battery safe for general disposal. Yes it does reduce the charge state to near zero, but that is not a safe condition to throw that battery into the trash. Discharging the battery does reduce the total energy in it, but it still has the chemistry available to catch fire. When you see a lipo fire, most of the fire you see comes from the burning solvent as well as some hydrogen, the heat came from the reacting lithium. Another way to cause a lithium battery to go up in flames it to reverse the polarity of the battery. Which can happen at a near 0 charge state. The proper way to dispose of a lithium battery is to call your local waste disposal facility and ask about their lithium disposal procedre.

If no one will accept the battery for disposal, a method that can work is to put the battery in a 5 gallon bucket of water and perforate it. The large volume of water will prevent fires while it reacts. Don't do this inside you home, or near flammible objects. This will complete possible reactions which wouldn't make it a fire hazard to throw away.

Don't always take people's word for it on forums, that includes my word. Even if the top 20 google results all tell you this. The only sure way to know how to properly dispose of something is to ask your local waste management authority, as they will know the local regulations for disposal.
 
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