ESTES Mid Power strategy 2016 Are they in or out ?

Any folks here have the inside scoop on what the real deal is with ESTES and Mid-Power
Rockets? There have been many rumors and opinions expressed.
Personally I would hate to see them get out of it. Obviously the more choices we have
as rocketeers the better. And some of their Mid-Power rockets were really cool, Der Red Max, Nike Smoke,
the Leviathan a favorite.

BTW Happy New Year everyone...May your launches this year be the best you ever had.

Only the most powerful, beautiful and elite have that kind of access to the Ivory Tower world of Estes. Big time corporate boardroom stuff, secret meetings in the Caribbean, private jets and water skiing behind yachts. Keep the teaming masses in the dark and deeply addicted to massive motor usage.

Daddyisabar said:

Only the most powerful, beautiful and elite have that kind of access to the Ivory Tower world of Estes. Big time corporate boardroom stuff, secret meetings in the Caribbean, private jets and water skiing behind yachts. Keep the teaming masses in the dark and deeply addicted to massive motor usage.

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Or just keep'en in the dark and feed'em @#$%!

I love Estes products, and it would definitely be nice to know I we will be able to get any parts for the PSII kits that they appear to be dropping, so we can continue building our own.

I expect we might get a clue about Estes' direction concerning mid-power when the 2016 catalog becomes available.

I did contact Estes about the 2016 catalog several days ago and I was told it is not ready yet and there is no ETA.

it looks like they are dropping the original PS II kits in favor of the smaller, lighter kits that can fly on their E16 and F15 black powder motors. The Leviathan has been discontinued and they regularly offer the original Pro Series II kits with deeply cut pricing in an attempt to clear out inventory. They appear to still be offering a selection of certain parts. The Aerotech made composite propellant engines seem like they are harder to come by. You can always order the comparable Aerotech engines.

Rocketron

I just got an order from them yesterday and it still came with the 2015 catalog. The good news appears to be with the new "two tube" DIY PSII kits that they are still using all the same wings/tubes/motor mount/rings. So parts for the "three tubers" should stay available.

I doubt that Estes is going to divulge what the "real deal" is, but look at what is going on. Isn't it obvious?

I agree with Rocketron's observation that Estes is phasing out the "high power lite" type of model rockets and going with "large model rockets." I'm thinking here of Centuri Mini-Max versus LOC Precision type rockets. Estes strength is in being able to manufacture and market black powder model rocket motors. Lots of black powder motors. No one else can touch them in that department. The decision to develop and bring to market those 29mm E and F motors leverages a strength rather than try to shore up a weakness. Isn't the profit in the motor sales, and not the kits? So I'd say Estes is "in" rather than "out" just not in a way that some might want to see. My guess....

swatkat said:

I just got an order from them yesterday and it still came with the 2015 catalog. The good news appears to be with the new "two tube" DIY PSII kits that they are still using all the same wings/tubes/motor mount/rings. So parts for the "three tubers" should stay available.

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The Panavia and Sahara are SPEV's, just like the Scion. Spare Parts Elimination Vehicles, some parts have already been dropped like the nose cone for the Leviathan/Scion/Big Daddy. Kits like the Scion and most likely Panavia and Sahara are shipped without the colored graphic cards just a bunch of parts in a bag with a sheet of instructions. This is indicative of using up inventory of extra parts. The new PSII Estes is releasing for 2016 is 1.6" diameter and unless its double tubed or a new tubing it's standard BT-60.

Ahh, thought the Panavia, etc. were here to stay. They can go up on the BP motors.

rharshberger said:

The new PSII Estes is releasing for 2016 is 1.6" diameter and unless its double tubed or a new tubing it's standard BT-60.

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The designer of the Star Orbiter kit has informed me that the body tube is standard BT-60.

Initiator001 said:

The designer of the Star Orbiter kit has informed me that the body tube is standard BT-60.

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That's what I figured, now I can double tube it an treat it just like any other PSII.

swatkat said:

Ahh, thought the Panavia, etc. were here to stay. They can go up on the BP motors.

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They might just be what you think, I hope so as I would hate to see the loss of the parts more than anything. The Estes 3" nose cone is one of my favorite. Since I have not acquired a Panavia or Sahara I am not sure if they have a hang tag (color card of rocket or whatever its called) in the bag, I know my Scion was just a bag o' parts with instructions.

My Panavia was a bag of parts too...

Who's the Estes guy always posting on here? I can't recall his name right now. I know he does some of the designing.

Kruegon said:

Who's the Estes guy always posting on here? I can't recall his name right now. I know he does some of the designing.

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John Boren I think is whom you speak of...
Goes by JumpJet

That's the one. I need to send him an email. If Estes really wants to drop the 2"+ PSII series, then they need to just outright say it. Those of us who have spent a hundreds to thousands of dollars this year deserve honesty.

And if they are going to only do BT-60 lots, they're going to lose out a significant amount. They should make BT-80 kits also. And the BT-70 begs for 29mm BP motors. A few nice new nose cones for that would go a long way.

And if they flat out announce they are ditching the current PSII line, remaining stock will go poof in no time. We'll all snatch it up.

They've had the PSII line on sale for cheap and still have some left, why would they make more? If you think people would snatch it all up after an official statement, why do you want them to do that? It's pretty obvious what's happening.

The Star Orbiter kit looks to me progress in the right direction for the 29 mm BP motors becoming permanent in their line: comes with 29 mm so you don't have to convert it yourself, rather than 24 mm models screaming for composite motors. They need to convert more of their larger 24 mm rockets.

Kruegon said:

And if they flat out announce they are ditching the current PSII line, remaining stock will go poof in no time. We'll all snatch it up.

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When I asked the same question in a thread about 3 months ago, everyone about cut my gonads off for daring to ask, never mind suggest that Estes wasn't committed to anything other than Estes BP capable mid power rockets. Mr. Estes replied something to the effect that if you like what you see now, buy it now, as there is no guarantee that they'll continue the model or the line.

I think that the simple fact that they've put out so many SPEVs and no substantive additions to the line speaks for itself. Shame, as I own 2 of each of their builder series, and they're my go to flyers (just not on Estes BP motors).

They must have made a truly huge number of PSII Builder parts and kits, it's not like people didn't buy them (especially at anything less than full price).

+1 on Estes leveraging their BT70 and 80 if that's the direction they're heading.

I wonder what John B. would think of designing a 29mm BT80-based sci-fi model?

bill_s said:

They must have made a truly huge number of PSII Builder parts and kits, it's not like people didn't buy them (especially at anything less than full price).

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Yup, I've seen Estes having them on sale for close to 2 years now (I ordered some on sale on March 2014 - oldest record I have). I thought that at those prices they would've cleared out inventory more quickly. However it seemed that with the Leviathan, it would go OOS for a while and then suddenly in stock for a short time...as if they were producing them in small lots from time to time...or perhaps getting inventory back from wholesalers/distributors?

Several of them have been witnessed to go out of stock and then come back a little while later. My own thinking is that was more a factor of inventory quantity input into the shopping cart portion of their website. I know ours worked that way. The quantity input into the website was not the actual quantity on hand. Rather, say, they actually had 4247 in the warehouse, but the person that populates the store inventory input that there was 500 for whatever reason. Eventually 500 are sold, it shows OOS, and the web guy then enters another 500 and it comes back as available. I can't say if that is what is happening, but I have seen the phenomena occur for Partizon, Argent, Leviathan, Cosmic Interceptor, Asteroid Hunter, Super Neon XL, etc.

I am not inclined to think at this point that Estes is doing away with the PSII line in general. But they are paring out the models that will not fly on 29mm BP motors. I'd bet (only a small amount) that they intend to stick with producing 29mm BP, and have decided that their PSII line should focus on designs that use them. There is no real motivation for them to continue to produce kits that only use composite motors. Obviously, the partnership with AT has ended, and they're back to the core business - making BP motors. So they will now make kits that use them. As to whether or not the 2 or 2.5" tubes will go away and they'll move back to traditional sizes, maybe. Or maybe the larger, heavier sizes will phase out but they'll keep the 2" - which they used for a number of non PSII kits as well as all the PSII E2X kits. There's a lot more motivation for them to retain that size rather than the others...

Personally, I'm not that interested in BT60 rockets for E16 or F15. I'm sure some people will like them, but it sounds to me like something I would just lose. The PSII E2X kits go pretty high on those motors, and they are heavier than any BT60 and balsa rocket. The 2-inch tubes are more durable too, which I like.

If they want to get away from heavier rockets that need composite motrs and get back to their original thin-wall tubes, I would be interested in more large rockets built around BT80 and BT70. Large but lightweight rockets built for E16 and F15 would be fun. I like large draggy rockets that don't go too high. A new design that flies like a MAIII, Mega Mosquito, upscaled Bertha, or BT80-based Red Max would be nice. The F15 has a great long burn, and it would be nice to have a rocket that would fly slowly for that whole burn.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Personally, I'm not that interested in BT60 rockets for E16 or F15. I'm sure some people will like them, but it sounds to me like something I would just lose. The PSII E2X kits go pretty high on those motors, and they are heavier than any BT60 and balsa rocket. The 2-inch tubes are more durable too, which I like.

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I did that. I had cobbled together a tallish BT-60 rocket from two dead Estes rockets and some extra parts. I flew a Ventris on a G and a Majestic on an F15. Both recovered half way through our field. The BT-60 rocket went out of the field and over the far trees. Needed a streamer.

I think the signs are pretty clear that Estes is liquidating out the larger PSII series given that selling directly to the consumer at wholesale prices (or prices significantly lower than your retailers) is not the best business practice unless your sellers aren't buying it any longer/you're not selling it to them any longer and you plan on closing the line. My :2:

EXPjawa said:

Several of them have been witnessed to go out of stock and then come back a little while later. My own thinking is that was more a factor of inventory quantity input into the shopping cart portion of their website. I know ours worked that way. The quantity input into the website was not the actual quantity on hand. Rather, say, they actually had 4247 in the warehouse, but the person that populates the store inventory input that there was 500 for whatever reason. Eventually 500 are sold, it shows OOS, and the web guy then enters another 500 and it comes back as available. I can't say if that is what is happening, but I have seen the phenomena occur for Partizon, Argent, Leviathan, Cosmic Interceptor, Asteroid Hunter, Super Neon XL, etc.

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That seems to be how the website inventory works - I went to order a 4" MDRM nose cone a couple years ago which was always showing out of stock. I emailed Christine, and she said the that she would let shipping know that they were out. Within an hour, they were back in stock.

Chris

At the clearance prices on these PSII builder kits, I kind of wish I had a need or desire for them. I'm in a purge mode right now, getting rid of all kinds of things throughout the house that I don't want or need. That includes some rocket stuff. I got rid of all my repair pile, except for the nose cones. I decided to just work through fresh kits instead of fix crashed ones. I still have a decent pile of PSII builder kits (an Argent, MDRM, and two Ventrises). I have a warrantee claim in to Estes right now because an Estes G40 catoed and destroyed my Leviathan. They told me the Leviathan is no longer available and told me I could pick a different rocket. I thought about a Partizon, but decided on an Ascender. The smaller rocket will be easier to store, and if I feel the need to build another MPR for composite F and G motors, I can build the Argent or Ventris.

Not sure exactly why I launched into this subject in this thread... I guess the point is if you do want or need a PSII builder kit, now is probably the time to get it. Any other time, I'd jump at these prices, and it seems like they will probably all disappear in not too long.

rocketron1948 said:

it looks like they are dropping the original PS II kits in favor of the smaller, lighter kits that can fly on their E16 and F15 black powder motors. The Leviathan has been discontinued and they regularly offer the original Pro Series II kits with deeply cut pricing in an attempt to clear out inventory. They appear to still be offering a selection of certain parts. The Aerotech made composite propellant engines seem like they are harder to come by. You can always order the comparable Aerotech engines.

Rocketron

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I thought it hilarious that they felt the need to call their rebranded Aerotech motors, engines.

I think kits built around the 2" & 2.5" tubes is the way to go. Throw in a few upscale nose cones and build larger kits that fly well on 29mm BP. Bring back some classic kits in a bigger design. 2" AMRAAM, 2.5" Alpha V. They should use the Cosmic Explorer nose cone to build some 29mm powered versions of the old sci-fi kits.

Cabernut said:

+1 on Estes leveraging their BT70 and 80 if that's the direction they're heading.

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+2 on that. Scratch build around a BT70 flew very nicely on an F15. I have no space for flying a Star Orbiter. BT70 is about Sub Orbital.