Loki Research 2016

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Sorry Scott,,
I'm not a facebook user yet...
This is a no brainer for me...
Everyone knows I am a big proponent of "The Best"....
I don't believe "The Best" even costs very much more then lesser because of how much longer it lasts...
And then for the entire time you own / use something if it's "The Best" it's a pleasure to use because it works better then it's lesser counterpart.....
I'm not sure but I think we spoke briefly of this when you decided to forgo the Type 3 hardcoat for cost concerns...

I believe Loki Research hardware is "The Best" hardware around...
That's one of the things that drew me to Loki Research....
But without the Type 3 hardcoat,, though I still think it's the best snap ring hardware out there,,, it isn't all it could be.....

1 vote for Type 3 hardcoat..........

( and that's how I would like the 76 / 8000 case I have on order )

Teddy
 
Hi Every One,

Just a note about LOKI cases and hardware. I am the reason Scott is out of hardware. I have had a lot of things go on in my life that has caused this delay.
Please know I'm doing the best I can to get this stuff on my machines. If all goes well I'll have the bulkheads running next week. I've had 54mm tubing on the floor since July of last year.
I worked 2 days of Christmas vacation just to get the blanks saw cut. Thank you for your understanding.
 
Teddy wants it Long and Hard. I'm locking my tent at URRF...... :)


Eric- thanks for the update

All's fair Dave....
The next time I see you in Potter
I'm going to hang that case from the corner of your
EZ up like a Xmas ornament just so I can watch you drool......lol...

Teddy
 
hahaha I do believe you will! And drool I will.... and then hide some onions under your carseats :)
 
I flew my Minie Magg today in Waco on a Loki I405 for a fast hike to about 2900'.

[YOUTUBE]TflCHaW5oIg[/YOUTUBE]
 
Super cool flight Jarrett. ....
I sure hope you're enjoying Texas....lol...

Teddy
 
Great flight Jarrett. :)

Any news on when the 98mm hardware may be available?

Sorry for overlooking this.

If I had 10 people or so lined up with deposits for 98mm hardware made from custom drawn tubing, I would say it can be ready in a few to several months. However, with the yearly fire sales each fall, healthy, or even normal profits are extremely hard to come by if they are existent at all, especially this time of year, 3 months after the fires. But that's what people seem to want, so that's what they keep getting. However, people who want a reloads that don't have CATO's or lot # recalls..... they buy a Loki reload. If people want new products from one end of the market to evolve and/or develop, they should change their buying habits and make purchases from that end.

What little excess profits I have made have gone towards 10 new reloads and one new case. (54/4000 which is far more affordable since I have to purchase that size tubing anyway) More reloads are being sent into TMT later this month. Even then, these new reloads have taken a long time mainly because the lack of decent profits due to the low ball prices of others. That brings the perceived value of everything down, way down. Yea sure, business is doing okay, the bills are getting paid and there is product on the shelves, but it could be a lot better. Being forced to give 30% discounts just to compete for new business is not at all conducive to being able to drop mid 4 figures for a small run of 98mm hardware without a line of paying customers waiting at your door. Sorry,.... but that's the situation I've been put in.

Put simply, buy a lot more of the smaller stuff and encourage others to do the same, and the bigger & better products will then follow at some point down the line. Aside from that, find me 9 more people who have money in hand up front for 40" to ~60" 98mm hardware and the ball will roll. I won't mess with making shorter cases because most people don't want them and I'd need smaller internal nozzle dimensions to accommodate them as well. More nozzles = more $$$$ in inventory sitting on the shelf.

Anyone for lower pressure, thin wall 98mm hardware with pinned closures instead of the heavy .162" to .188" wall snap ring cases?
<.125" wall but with = or > than .120" wall liners? I'm likely asking in the wrong place. :-(
 
The DAT tool made by CTI is what Loki 38mm reloads were designed to work with. MAKE SURE that you accurately measure the drill bit with the butt end of a good pair of dial calipers. If you don't know what that means (Chris) please ask. From the tip of the drill bit to the plastic base that it is molded into, the drill bit length should measure .925" long. Each delay step is something like .075" and each setting is 2 to 3 seconds difference, depending on which setting is used. So if your tool is off by only .025" it will change the time by about 1 second.

I have seen far too many CTI DAT's (delay adjustment tools) that had the drill bit sticking out too far. It will result in early ejection times, or worst case, using the shortest delay setting often results in a forward end blow by or ejection right at burnout that zippers the body tube. I heard about one of these just this past weekend with an I-430 LB. The DAT's drill measures 1.025, a whole tenth of an inch off! It was set to the shorty delay and it blew the ejection charge right at burnout.

I first learned about this the first week I went to work for JT at Loki back in 2009 and it still seems to be an issue. Double check your tools everyone. Let us know here if yours is off.
 
The DAT tool made by CTI is what Loki 38mm reloads were designed to work with. MAKE SURE that you accurately measure the drill bit with the butt end of a good pair of dial calipers. If you don't know what that means (Chris) please ask. From the tip of the drill bit to the plastic base that it is molded into, the drill bit length should measure .925" long. Each delay step is something like .075" and each setting is 2 to 3 seconds difference, depending on which setting is used. So if your tool is off by only .025" it will change the time by about 1 second.

I have seen far too many CTI DAT's (delay adjustment tools) that had the drill bit sticking out too far. It will result in early ejection times, or worst case, using the shortest delay setting often results in a forward end blow by or ejection right at burnout that zippers the body tube. I heard about one of these just this past weekend with an I-430 LB. The DAT's drill measures 1.025, a whole tenth of an inch off! It was set to the shorty delay and it blew the ejection charge right at burnout.

I first learned about this the first week I went to work for JT at Loki back in 2009 and it still seems to be an issue. Double check your tools everyone. Let us know here if yours is off.

Scott,
I had one of those too long drills. I couldn't figure out why I kept having early deployments. The I got a second drill tool when I purchased another set of casings. I for some reason put the two tools next to each other and noticed the difference. A few emails back and forth with Jeroen to figure out which one was a keeper and the other tool was
warrantied by my CTI dealer.

Adrian
 
The DAT tool made by CTI is what Loki 38mm reloads were designed to work with. MAKE SURE that you accurately measure the drill bit with the butt end of a good pair of dial calipers. If you don't know what that means (Chris) please ask. From the tip of the drill bit to the plastic base that it is molded into, the drill bit length should measure .925" long. Each delay step is something like .075" and each setting is 2 to 3 seconds difference, depending on which setting is used. So if your tool is off by only .025" it will change the time by about 1 second.

I have seen far too many CTI DAT's (delay adjustment tools) that had the drill bit sticking out too far. It will result in early ejection times, or worst case, using the shortest delay setting often results in a forward end blow by or ejection right at burnout that zippers the body tube. I heard about one of these just this past weekend with an I-430 LB. The DAT's drill measures 1.025, a whole tenth of an inch off! It was set to the shorty delay and it blew the ejection charge right at burnout.

I first learned about this the first week I went to work for JT at Loki back in 2009 and it still seems to be an issue. Double check your tools everyone. Let us know here if yours is off.


OK, now I'm all confused. I have a Pro Dat tool (like the one pictured here)
Pro-Dat_tool.jpg
that I purchased this past summer that's .975 exposed length and was consistently about a second off from where I calculated it should be, so I contacted CTI. According to Jeron on a PM I got just this week: "&#8203;The nominal length is around .940" exposed. The 0.035" difference will make the delays about 0.9s shorter."

That makes each second adjustment calculate to about .038.

WTF? As a BAR just getting into AP reloads, it's a confusing mess. Was it always called a Pro Dat? If not, was there a bit size/length change between DAT and Pro Dat?

Edit:

I just measured my tool steps

-3=.104 making each second .035
-5=.185 making each second .037
-7=.267 making each second .038
-9=.345 making each second .038

Not too bad for a plastic molded tool, I'd say, and right on where Jeron's info puts it.

Bottom line question:
Am I using the right tool for Loki 38mm delays?

 
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OK, now I'm all confused. I have a Pro Dat tool (like the one pictured here)
Pro-Dat_tool.jpg
that I purchased this past summer that's .975 exposed length and was consistently about a second off from where I calculated it should be, so I contacted CTI. According to Jeron on a PM I got just this week: "&#8203;The nominal length is around .940" exposed. The 0.035" difference will make the delays about 0.9s shorter."

That makes each second adjustment calculate to about .038.

WTF? As a BAR just getting into AP reloads, it's a confusing mess. Was it always called a Pro Dat? If not, was there a bit size/length change between DAT and Pro Dat?

Edit:

I just measured my tool steps

-3=.104 making each second .035
-5=.185 making each second .037
-7=.267 making each second .038
-9=.345 making each second .038

Not too bad for a plastic molded tool, I'd say, and right on where Jeron's info puts it.

Bottom line question:
Am I using the right tool for Loki 38mm delays?


Afaik the PRO-DAT has always been called that, on the issue of the bit, if its off length for Loki delays then its off for CTI delays.
 
Afaik the PRO-DAT has always been called that, on the issue of the bit, if its off length for Loki delays then its off for CTI delays.

OK, that clears that up, but:

* Scott says .925 with 1 second steps being .025
* Jeron says .940 with 1 second steps being .038

Who's zooming who? :)

If Scott is right, that would make my tool WAY off, as the drill bit is too long and the steps are WAY TOO LARGE.
At that rate, on my tool (which a phone call to my buddy just confirmed is consistent in measurement on the steps with his tool)
-3 is a -4
-5 is -7.4
-7 is -10.7
-9 is -14
This would be INCONSISTENT with how my tool is performing.

My drill bit measures .975. For .035 I'll take a dremel to it and adjust it, but for .050 I'm getting it warrantied.
 
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OK, that clears that up, but:

Scott says .925 with 1 second steps being .025 (making my tool WAY off, as the drill bit is too long and the steps are WAY TOO LARGE)
Jeron says .940 with 1 second steps being .038

Who's zooming who? :)

My tool measures .975. For .035 I'll take a dremel to it and adjust it, but for .050 I'm getting it warrantied.

Are you both measuring by the same method? Thats the real question.
 
Hi Tom, the length that I am measuring is the bit length itself, shown below. Every time I get a dozen or so in stock, they always seem to vary. As for the name, that is probably just me leaving out the word Pro. No worries there. I'm sure it's the same tool.

This image is the one that Jeff use to have up on the Loki Website back when I went to work for him in 2009. He bought his tools direct from CTI and he had many tools on an office shelf to be sent back for warranty at that time. I am sure CTI will do this without an problem for customers, just like Adrian mentioned above. Myself, I have found it easier and more cost effective to simply check each tool I receive and the ones I find that are too long get carefully ground down on a bench grinder. The image below is based off of what he was instructed by CTI at that time and this is what I have always used. If anything has changed since then, I am unaware of it. BTW, I have no idea how the 1.675" measurement on the left effects anything.

DAT_handle.gif


* Scott says .925 with 1 second steps being .025
* Jeron says .940 with 1 second steps being .038

Please remember that CTI and Loki delays have different burn rates. And Loki even has 2 different delay types. My mention of changing delay times by "about" a second for each .025" is more of a generalization, based on Loki delays, not CTI delays. So everything I talk about is going to be in reference to Loki delays. Everything Jeron talks about is going to be in reference to CTI delays. Please do not confuse the two.

People have to remember that delays are not completely accurate in the least. Close, yes. Always accurate, no. Temperature for one plays a big part in the burn rate of APCP. Temperature changes pressure, and pressure will change the burn rate of a delay.

The problem with having a delay too short is that the delay is the only thing holing back the pressure from the ejection charge. If the delay is drilled too short, too much delay material is taken away and as the motor reaches burn out, if there isn't enough delay material left covering the touch hole, the chamber pressure in the motor will extrude the delay through the touch hole and light the charge. Worse yet is when this happens well before the motor is done burning and then you've got flames coming out of both ends. So if you're using the shortest delays on your flights, make sure you are checking the drill depth of your tools. If you see an early deployment at burn outor a forward blow by, ask the flier what delay setting they were using and what their tool bit measured, assuming they used a CTI Pro-DAT.

I hope this clears it up a bit. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here. I'm just trying to prevent lost boosters and hardware.
 
Hi Tom, the length that I am measuring is the bit length itself, shown below. Every time I get a dozen or so in stock, they always seem to vary. As for the name, that is probably just me leaving out the word Pro. No worries there. I'm sure it's the same tool.
- Thank you for clearing that up. Sometimes when suffixes or prefixes get dropped, like the PRO, it sends us new guys into a tail spin. :)

This image is the one that Jeff use to have up on the Loki Website back when I went to work for him in 2009. He bought his tools direct from CTI and he had many tools on an office shelf to be sent back for warranty at that time. I am sure CTI will do this without an problem for customers, just like Adrian mentioned above. Myself, I have found it easier and more cost effective to simply check each tool I receive and the ones I find that are too long get carefully ground down on a bench grinder. The image below is based off of what he was instructed by CTI at that time and this is what I have always used. If anything has changed since then, I am unaware of it. BTW, I have no idea how the 1.675" measurement on the left effects anything.
*******This is how I was instructed to measure my drill bit, and Jeron's response is that it should be .940 nominal. Perhaps a further conversation with him would be advantageous? I'm not sure I would know the right questions to ask, but this is surely different than what he told me that all Pro Dat tools should measure.*******

DAT_handle.gif




Please remember that CTI and Loki delays have different burn rates. And Loki even has 2 different delay types. My mention of changing delay times by "about" a second for each .025" is more of a generalization, based on Loki delays, not CTI delays. So everything I talk about is going to be in reference to Loki delays. Everything Jeron talks about is going to be in reference to CTI delays. Please do not confuse the two.
- That actually dawned on me just before reading this paragraph. Noted, with thanks. So, based on the measurements of the steps on my tool, that would make this true (length of drill notwithstanding):
CTI to LOKI
-3 is a -4
-5 is a -7.4
-7 is a -10.7
-9 is a -14


People have to remember that delays are not completely accurate in the least. Close, yes. Always accurate, no. Temperature for one plays a big part in the burn rate of APCP. Temperature changes pressure, and pressure will change the burn rate of a delay.

The problem with having a delay too short is that the delay is the only thing holing back the pressure from the ejection charge. If the delay is drilled too short, too much delay material is taken away and as the motor reaches burn out, if there isn't enough delay material left covering the touch hole, the chamber pressure in the motor will extrude the delay through the touch hole and light the charge. Worse yet is when this happens well before the motor is done burning and then you've got flames coming out of both ends. So if you're using the shortest delays on your flights, make sure you are checking the drill depth of your tools. If you see an early deployment at burn outor a forward blow by, ask the flier what delay setting they were using and what their tool bit measured, assuming they used a CTI Pro-DAT.

I hope this clears it up a bit. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here. I'm just trying to prevent lost boosters and hardware.
- No feathers ruffled at all, thanks for helping clear this up, although I'm not sure we're to the bottom of it, a definitive answer from CTI is in order, as it appears that the tool spec may have changed. In fact, I'm about to order a few more reloads while they're in stock! Awaiting follow up from CTI!

Noted in RED above.
 
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I just send Jeron a PM asking if he would comment to us all here. Stay tuned.
 
I've got an old PM from Jeroen somewhere that stated the drill length was .925"
Here it is:<![CDATA[Adrian, The correct exposed drill length is 0.925". If yours is longer than 1", you can exchange it at the dealer you purchased it from (just the drill part only, not the base). Jeroen]]>

Adrian
 
I've got an old PM from Jeroen somewhere that stated the drill length was .925"
Here it is:<=!=[=C=D=A=T=A=[Adrian, The correct exposed drill length is 0.925". If yours is longer than 1", you can exchange it at the dealer you purchased it from (just the drill part only, not the base). Jeroen]=]=>

Adrian

Not to discount that, and perhaps to add to the problems, my PM from him was only 2 days ago! I asked because mine was .975 and triggering the ejection about 1 sec (based on altimeter data and observation) too soon.

Jeroen_at_CTI said:
Tom,

The nominal length is around .940" exposed. The 0.035" difference will make the delays about 0.9s shorter.

You can account for the difference, or your dealer can exchange it for you. I'm making sure that staff is aware of this issue. Was it a recent purchase?

Jeroen.
 
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Just because I'm always "that guy" This is why I love altimeters :)
 
So am I the only one that just measures the drill bit and puts a piece of tape on the bit where I want to drill to?

It's a great way to do it because then it doesn't matter whether or not I grab the AT drill or the CTI drill.
 
So am I the only one that just measures the drill bit and puts a piece of tape on the bit where I want to drill to?

It's a great way to do it because then it doesn't matter whether or not I grab the AT drill or the CTI drill.

I did that until I blew early a time or two. Considering the cost and effort of rockets, the delay tools are a cheap investment. (granted the AT ones require a decoder ring to figure out, but they do work)
 
So am I the only one that just measures the drill bit and puts a piece of tape on the bit where I want to drill to?

It's a great way to do it because then it doesn't matter whether or not I grab the AT drill or the CTI drill.

+1.
 
Am I the only one that doesn't fly with delays? ;)

No you aren't, I am in the process to converting all my MPR and HPR rockets to be almost exclusively electronics, and just plug the charge wells with dog barf so I get the tracking smoke.
 

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