TLP Hellfire AGM114A

Hi all,
Got my first rocket kit for xmas (after ordering it online and telling the girlfriend she was paying :lol.
I loved the idea of a scale version of something real.
This will be my first rocket build as my only previous rocket experience is an Estes Alpha kit from about 25yrs ago, so looking for any tips or tricks (I'm looking at you Sodmeister and TopRamen:smile
Thanks in advance,
Phil

Welcome. You are really jumping in with both feet by starting out with a TLP kit. Best advice I can give is don't be in a hurry, and don't worry about making it absolutely perfect.

I like to change out balsa for basswood in these kits. Papering the fins can also add a great deal of strength and not much weight.

Also, make copies of the templates before you start. Don't ask me how I learned to do that.

Thanks, as you said patience will be the key.
And yeah i think i will paper the fins. And might have to visit one of the big model shops round here to see if they have basswood.

Hobby Lobby and Michael's typically stock basswood also. As I hate repairing rockets more than about anything I tend to avoid large balsa fins, small fins ok, but big ones either get papered balsa or basswood. You can also paper basswood, but I don't know how much that would add strength wise. I have done it, but that is because finishing papered fins is easier in my opinion.

Unfortunately Cl(VII) I'm about 7000 miles to your south west so Hobby Lobby might be a bit of a trek.
Model rocketry just doesn't seem to be that well supported down here in New Zealand.

Do you have access to the Aerotech or RMS motors listed on the kit? These motors have more thrust than the Estes D12 motors and will work better with this rocket.

If the only motors you have access to are the Estes D12-3 motors, you need to keep the weight of the rocket as close as you can to the specs. Extra weight is generally very bad for the 2.6 inch diameter Launch Pad kits that are flown on D12 motors. I have not built this particular kit, but I have built other 2.6 inch diameter Launch Pad kits and I do not fly them on D12 motors as the flights are just to heavy. Swapping out your balsa for basswood will make a more durable rocket, but could add too much weight for a D12 flight. People who have actually built this kit would be better able to tell you their experience with these modifications.

However, if D12s are what you have, then there are several things you can do to improve the probability of a successful flight:
1) Use a long launch rod. 4 feet is good, 6 feet is better, but you don't want a rod that has much whip to it. They state you need a 3/16 inch launch rod, but a 1/4 inch rod would be better (you would need a larger launch lug too).
2) Make sure the rocket slides easily on the launch rod. Even a little binding during the launch could be disastrous as you need all the power you can get out of the motor.
3) Fly it only in low wind, or better yet, dead calm.
4) Fly with a club if there is one near you.

Good luck and have fun.

Here is a link to a review of the kit and some launch reports: https://www.rocketreviews.com/launch-pad-the-hellfire-agm-114a--by-orion-samoiloff.html

I've built and launched the TLP Maverick several times, which is close to this kit in size/dimensions.

I agree with CI(VII) that this is a big jump from an Estes Alpha kit and unless you're a very good craftsman/model builder, I'd recommend saving this one until you get a few more under your belt...or take your time and build this one slowly one step at a time while finishing and launching other rockets in the meantime. Reason being is that TLP kits are really more "builder's kits" where you are expected to do more of the work rather than having stuff laser cut and everything clearly laid out for you (ex. they don't even provide suggestions on launch lug placement...they even have plan packs where you roll your own body tubes!).

I consider TLP kits to be very different from most other kits and they often seem misunderstood given this. Here's a quote from their website (https://www.the-launch-pad.com/):
"Kits from The Launch Pad are designed with several things in mind: Light weight, reasonable pricing, and awesome performance." I would add that light weight also tends to be at opposing sides of durable (like heavy wall cardboard or fiberglass). IMHO my TLP kits are among the most fragile kits I have and while I think they're fine for the motors suggested, transporting them to the launch site requires more care than my other rockets.

Additionally, I agree with Zeus-cat...missile designs are often unstable by nature and any rockets with forward fins are more sensitive to winds...given this combined with the light weight nature, I don't launch any TLP with forward fins if it is even a bit windy. YMMV

With all that wet blanket stuff put aside, I love the Hellfire kit (been itching to build it!) and I love that TLP offers it reasonably priced and able to fly off D12 motors. I would suggest using self-adhesive label paper to strengthen the fin stock and adding mini or micro rail buttons.

Good luck with the build and let us know how it goes or if you have any questions!

Thanks for the input KenECoyote.
There are another couple of kits that i can get hold of that take my fancy, the Estes Patriot 1/10th Model and the Quest Tomahawk Cruise Missile. Any thoughts on those?

And thanks Zeus-cat, i can get aerotech cases and reloads but what sort of hoping just to keep it simple with the d12-3's to begin with.
And i like the idea of running the linear rail lugs with a rail.......... just to keep that missile look going

NZM305 said:

Thanks for the input KenECoyote.
There are another couple of kits that i can get hold of that take my fancy, the Estes Patriot 1/10th Model and the Quest Tomahawk Cruise Missile. Any thoughts on those?

And thanks Zeus-cat, i can get aerotech cases and reloads but what sort of hoping just to keep it simple with the d12-3's to begin with.
And i like the idea of running the linear rail lugs with a rail.......... just to keep that missile look going

Click to expand...

The new Estes HoJo is a sweet kit... Those fins'll take some work. Someone here (or on YORF) had a build thread where they did the fins much the same way as the old MaxiBrute HoJo, with nice results.


I'm wishing that I'd have carried my unassembled kit with me when I flew to China. I'm here without a kit to build, no TV, Radio, and little ¥¥¥¥ since I lost my cell phone, and decided to pack my bike. Nighttime is boring here right now.

So, when I get the scratch together to get over to NZ or Australia, how hard will it be to score my L2 there?

NZM305 said:

Thanks for the input KenECoyote.
There are another couple of kits that i can get hold of that take my fancy, the Estes Patriot 1/10th Model and the Quest Tomahawk Cruise Missile. Any thoughts on those?

And thanks Zeus-cat, i can get aerotech cases and reloads but what sort of hoping just to keep it simple with the d12-3's to begin with.
And i like the idea of running the linear rail lugs with a rail.......... just to keep that missile look going

Click to expand...

NP! The Estes Patriot is an excellent first missile build IMHO and I would definitely recommend it. Not a difficult build, simple decals, eye-popping scheme, traditional rocket design; still available, uses smaller & cheaper Estes B-C motors (launch on the smaller B first to see how it does in your launch site before almost sending it twice higher on the C) and if you want, you can take your time and really make it look great (ex. fill spirals, good paint, etc.).

IMHO the Quest Tomahawk Cruise Missile is more of an advanced builder and flier (having spent a LOT of time building and decalling this one). I would say the Quest TCM is a Level 4-4.5 out of 5 when I think of all the rockets I've built...the decals are probably one of the toughest decal jobs you'll encounter and good luck finding a match for the red decal! Additionally, the scoop and middle fins can quickly send it horizontal after coming off the rod (the president of my rocket club predicted that after seeing the scoop and sure enough, that's what happened; however despite the long walk for recovery, it was quite a cool sight!). One recent build I saw had the scoop angled closer to the body tube (almost flush) and I think this is a good idea; less big scoops sticking out of one side of a rocket = more straight up. Additionally, I'm planning upscales of the Quest TCM (in 2.6" ala TLP scale as well as 4" possibly fiberglass) and I'm considering ideas to counter the scoop drag such as: nose weight set off-center; forward fins with leading edges angled in one direction; adjustable angle foward fins; removable/retractable scoop.

BTW - I suggested the rail guides for TLP rockets since you already have the forward fins, more "custom" construction and light weight as possible factors affecting the flight performance, so you should try to minimize/eliminate the rod whip factor otherwise you may not be fully sure why the rocket flew off at an angle without a lot more flights. My :2:

The Estes 1/10 Patriot is a great sport scale kit. It's one of my all-time favorites.

Thanks for all the advise guys, I think I will get the Patriot kit early in the new year.
Decided I would start on what i consider the easier parts of the hellfire kit, so put together the motor mount and tailcone, also started gluing the shockcord into I guess what you might call its envelope.
Here's a picture of the motor mount, I'll add a bead of epoxy around the motor tube/rings before i consider it finished.

I like it, go for it. What do you have to lose really. As a way to save weight, wood glue (I would recomend Titebond II here in the US, but I have no idea what brands you have in NZ) is excellent for wood, paper, cardboard kits. If you get a good yellow glue the tube or wood will fail before the joint does.

You will also want to toughen up the tailcone some. Soaking in some thin CA once formed and attached is a light weight way to add some strength. Expanding foam is another trick, but it would require some CR holes and can be really tricky/messy/destructive stuff.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks CI, I've formed the tailcone and got it glued with the rings on the tail tube, with some white woodworking glue(i have some aluminum tape to line it with). I also have a small pottle of CA with a brush to harden the tailcone.
Would you normally harden then fill? or opposite way round?
Think i need to go to my local model store and see if i can find some different cure time epoxies as I've only been able to get 5min stuff so far (good for fins, not so good for doing motor mount to tube I suspect).

Nice work! I didn't realize it had a tiny tailcone! So cute! :grin:

I don't think you need epoxy...for fg (fiberglass) rockets, sure, but for cardboard & wood, carpenter's glue may actually be stronger, plus as CI said, it's lighter. Adding extra weight to the back end on a lightweight rocket isn't such a great idea.

Note that the expanding foam CI is referring to is likely the ones made for rocketry...if you use the ones for home use, it may expand too much or not enough and create a real mess. Personally, I wouldn't bother with that in this case since the cone is so small that I'm not sure if it will make much difference or be worth the extra work and risk (however I may use it on TLP kits with bigger tail cones). It may be simpler/easier to add another layer of card stock (in addition to the CA coating) if you're concerned about a tail landing on a hard surface.

I prefer to assume the rocket manufacturer knows more about building the rocket than I do (not always the case, but a very good bet) and I first build it according to their directions with maybe a bit of personal mods that don't change the rocket significantly. I'll then fly it a few times and if I'm not satisfied, I'll then try some mods or build another one modded the way I want. Otherwise if I mod from the start and the rocket is a dog, I'm not sure if it was my mods or the rocket. YMMV

Also I think 5min epoxy is fine IMHO for anything Low/Mid-power.

Something tells me that this is going to be a very high quality build thread...

Please, keep it up! :clap:

I usually harden with CA, Polish with high grit sandpaper, fill with either water thinned Elmer's Wood Filler or Bondo Spot and Glazing Putty, then sand with high grit and see where I am at. Usually I end up coming over the entire thing again with CA after I am happy that the joint is smooth, or at least smooth enough. If it just doesn't look like it will ever be quite perfect I make sure to allign the seam on the launch lug line...you never see it when it's loaded to go that way.

Looks good so far. Paper transitions are one of those things that look great, but definitely have some technique and learning associated with them...definately a weak point in my building. Most imperfections are nothing enough cycles of filler primer and sanding can't fix later though.

Thanks K'Tesh, I'm hoping to document the build well so others can learn along with me. Plus I have enjoyed alot of the other threads with good photos.
I think that will be the way I go Cl, will try and pick up some filler this week, I'm also debating in my head whether to make the steering fins separate from the main fin as they are in real life (yes I Know not as strong) or to leave them one piece as per the instructions.

NZM305 said:

I'm also debating in my head whether to make the steering fins separate from the main fin as they are in real life (yes I Know not as strong) or to leave them one piece as per the instructions.

Click to expand...

Pending how you make them you can creat a lot of illusions with cardstock or label paper, and keep them one fin. For instance, you could paper the fin except for a thin strip where the joint between the two aft fins in the real missile. Also, a thin raised portion will break it up for the eye and make it look separate. For a small raised line after painting it is often difficult to tell without close examination if it is raised or indented.

Because the aft steering fins would be so small compared to the model size, and being that they would be the most likely to take some of the force on landing, I would think very seriously about "cheating" and making them just look like two discrete fins.

All of my single fin advocacy should be viewed through my utter hatred of fixing busted rockets. I love to build and fly, but hate to repair. This leads to building methods centered more around strength than astetic or scale concerns. In the end it is your rocket, so build it to your desire.

NZM305 said:

I'm also debating in my head whether to make the steering fins separate from the main fin as they are in real life (yes I Know not as strong) or to leave them one piece as per the instructions.

Click to expand...

You could just score the fin or even draw a line with a sharpie along the hinge line after painting to make it look like a separate piece rather than actually separate them. I agree with CI that separating them will probably just lead to breakages and isn't worth the trouble.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, some food for thought.

Here's where we are up to today,

Parachute ring in


and........ Motor mount in



I've also CA'd the tail cone. It will definitely need filling, one portion appears to have gone a bit concave. I think this is due to the cone being a fraction tight and when I've put the tail tube in its stretched it slightly.
Nothing a little bit of filler can't fix.

I don't have any experience with a TLP rocket, but one thing that I've found with Estes (and other similar brands of rocket's body tubes)... If you use too thick of an application of white glue for gluing in the motor mount or CR, it can shrink, and cause the body tube to form a waist. Dunno what kind of glue you've got there, but just wanted to make sure that you don't end up with that problem.

Happy New Year!
Jim

Thanks Jim, we'll see what happens
Happy New Year to you to, only about 4 hrs to go here.

So tail cone lined and glued in, adds a little weight but not much and will compensate in the nose.

And fins marked out for cutting, going to paper them to strengthen them.

NZM305 said:

And fins marked out for cutting, going to paper them to strengthen them.

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Those lower fins sure have an odd grain angle to them... Isn't there a better way of arranging things to keep the grain aligned in a more "normal" manner?

TLP's instructions seem to indicate that they want the grain to run parallel with the leading edge, not parallel with the root edge, i assume to stop the fin snapping lengthways. This seemed to be the only way I could lay them out and not have the grain running lengthways......... But I Haven't cut them yet

I'd figure out some other way to orient the grain. Perhaps getting a new sheet of balsa. First time you land on a fin, you're going to take the tip right off of it. The grain should come "out" of the root edge and run 45º or so downward. Like these from Apogee: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Building-Supplies/Rocket-Fins/Stand-up-Shape-Laser-cut-Fins-set-of-3

Thanks for that Tonimus, I thought thats how they want the grain, but there is no way to do it with the piece supplied. Might make a trip to the hobby shop
I might just cut them out as is and paper them, and see how they feel. If they don't seem right I'll make a new set.

NZM305 said:

Thanks for that Tonimus, I thought thats how they want the grain, but there is no way to do it with the piece supplied. Might make a trip to the hobby shop
I might just cut them out as is and paper them, and see how they feel. If they don't seem right I'll make a new set.

Click to expand...

Are you sure it won't fit? It looks like the main ones just need to be flipped around. Take a look at the bottom long fin...just put the angled edge on top and flat edge on the bottom and that gets the grain almost parallel, so I think they can fit. TLP kits usually figure out the balsa so you have just enough with a bit to spare. Just take your time and rearrange. If you want, wait a day or two and I'll take a look at my kit and see if I can help with it laid out.

Also Happy New Year! :wave: