Indiana MAC Performance FIRESTICK XL BF build - info always appreciated

Hiya Nick,,
I'm sorry I hadn't checked out this thread before...
Are you a bit tight on that harness fitting ???
It's late now,, I'm on my phone,, I'll shoot you an email tomorrow, ,,
We'll jive it out.....

Teddy

onebadhawk said:

Hiya Nick,,
I'm sorry I hadn't checked out this thread before...
Are you a bit tight on that harness fitting ???
It's late now,, I'm on my phone,, I'll shoot you an email tomorrow, ,,
We'll jive it out.....

Teddy

Click to expand...

I think I'm good Teddy, It fits unless a cram a big motor in there and no where around here would I have that kind of waiver.
I bought a couple more harnesses from you and could use those as well and save these for a bigger project that I will no doubt build. No worries. The harnesses are great, I just really didn't think about space. I've heard of people have to hold it all together with shear pins and I'm not to that point as long as I pack it well.

Nick,,
Packin it well,,
I have always found that the more attention to detail when prepping a rocket directly translates into a higher successful flight rate..
When I'm in a rush or distracted or just say screw it,, it'll be OK,, that's when I have a flight anomaly..
Also,, I have always found that each rocket you have is 2 different rockets to set up for flight..
When flying with a small to medium motor the rocket is much easier to prep...
When you find yourself at that launch you've been waiting anxiously to get to all year with the crazy high waiver
and you get the biggest baddest load you can get for the MOTOR MOUNT,,,
you suddenly find yourself awfully tight OVER the motor mount...
This is one area where "packin it well",, neatly,, can help a great deal in saving space,, and those Z folds I saw in a pick of yours are very important and helpful...

Nick,,
It's very important to me that you LOVE your harnesses,,,
If it'll help,, would you like me to cut them down just a skoootch.....
Also,,
Please look at the 9/16" Tubular Kevlar on my site...
Super small,, thin,, light,, packs like butter...
Last year at Airfest in Kansas someone had a 3 loop harness of that material in a 2.6" fiberglass rocket...
The apogee separation event occurred at motor burnout,,, dats bad....
The harness tore a slot in the glass tube about 4" long,, and the harness looked great after the flight...
Even I was quite surprised......
Take a look at that material,, it may suit your purpose .....

Anything I can do for ya man,,,,

Teddy

yesterday warmed up - so I took advantage of some painting weather and painted the base coat on the booster....and promptly dropped it on the garage floor for the nice first ding and it rolled around in all the dog hair...awesome. Just like a new truck - first thing to do, put a scratch on it, no you wont worry as much .

I was able to finish my NC bulkhead so I can get everything packed together. I shoved a 54mm - 6 gr in it to see how everything will fit together







Next, I brought it inside and packed everything together. Put a third loop in like the picture to attach the parachute - however I didn't care for the way the loops worked out, this would've had harness packed on both sides of the parachute and that just looked like a potential tangle at deploy of the main. So I decided to undo the third loop and hook the chute directly to the NC. Now the swivel for the payload harness is down on the AV Bay with no swivel on the NC.

QUESTION:
Thinking this would be OK since from all the videos I see the booster fins really spin the rocket during the drogue decent. And the main coming out at 600', one swivel on the AV side will be fine. However, if the main came out at apogee for any reason - would this allow enough spin so the main wouldn't wrap up? If so I could put a second swivel on the Chute attachment at the NC.


This is not my paint scheme - by the time I painted the booster last night the temp dropped enough that I couldn't put the base coat on the NC and payload section.





about ready for ground testing.

This is the paint scheme that is running through my head, simple and not to challenging. Not sure if this will be the final - it will be white and black - but the yellow may change since i have some real pretty metallic bright red in Automotive paint, I also like bright blue or fluorescent orange or fluorescent pink. I have a V2 that the Fluorescent Yellow turned out pretty well if I don't keep coating it.

Was able to shoot some more primer and the base coat today and started on the black.
Dupli-color Black Pearl and Brilliant white.

I'm really jealous of how
clean and neat your garage is Nick.....

Teddy

with a small window of warmer weather i tried to rush the paint and well things didn't go as planned on the paint job - I cleared over the masking tape to seal the edges - painted my black over the flourescent yellow - and when I removed the tape 30 minutes late - it pulled up areas of the black stripe AND some of the base coat...arrgghh. Looks good at 50' but i'm going to redo this.



next on to completing the AV bay -
Wired the rotary switch to the Main Alt RRC3 and will do a wire twist on the backup alt RRC2. Also set the RRC3 to deploy main at 600 ft since the RRc2 is already set for a backup deployment at 500 '



On to the deploy charges - i have pictures of my technique which has been 100% successful - however I have not done a redundant setup so I am not sure if my technique will be ok with 2 charges - so I will ground test for the primary charge and see if it will blow the backup charge ... see video

- Set the primary at 1.5 grams of FFFFG and the backup at 1.8 gr on both drogue and main. ( I was recommended by MAC that 1.5gr is what they use so I know this works fine) but always want to test and see for myself to learn)
- Checked all my Crazy Jim igniters and they were all 0.9~1.1 Ohms.
- Loaded the charge, used Dog barf and packed it with pencil and taped over the charge using 2 pieces of masking tape.
- tested using the same LIPO that I use on all my altimeters listed in the previous posts.

More pics

[video=youtube;dNiZOnM8QMU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNiZOnM8QMU[/video]

THIS DIDN'T WORK the charge blew fine and separated fine - although I would like to see more of the loops broken - only one loop broke but the video looks pretty good to me.

QUESTIONS:
1. what technique do you use so the charges are isolated from one blowing the other charge?
2. Separation look ok to you in the video?

...

Also today opened a YOUTUBE channel - and am working on some videos since I am behind the times, but this should be a nice way to share video like you all do. Can now post my own videos.

First Flight is planned for Saturday at ThreeOaks MI - however since I am starting a big project on friday with work I may not be able to attend - plus right now here in IN wind is 35mph and freaking cold - if I can make it cold won't bother me - but wind not liking that prospect.

Nick,,
I'm a bit confused with your questions..

1st,,
On a redundant set up there are 2 unrelated charge canisters on each bulkhead,,
I do nothing to isolate them from each other,,
I do nothing to isolate the secondary canister from the primary canisters charge.....
I have never had one affect the other in any way,,
I do separate mine by 300 ft or so and can hear distinctly when the secondary goes off,,
so it definitely wasn't affected when the primary went off...

I think that was a question...

2nd,,
I think you are "Z" folding your harnesses,, restraining each fold with masking tape,, and only one popped / broke / opened up on the ground test...
"Z" folding is a very good thing to do.. It makes for a softer more controlled lay out of the harness on deployment,
but for me the more important reason to "Z" fold is for the great reduction of the chance of entanglement on the deployment..
I had one rocket torture me with entanglement on the harness below the piston in the payload section,
"Z" folding really neatly stopped this entanglement completely..
So I am a big advocate of "Z" folding now,,
but like everything if it isn't done right it won't work and can actually be detrimental..
When you make a "Z" fold the restraint must be all the way to one side,, and that side must have both ends of the harness going to the anchor point or the next "Z" fold... This makes it super easy / likely that the force of the harness laying out on deployment will pop the restraint.....

Lastly,,
I have stopped using masking tape for the restraint just because I am tired of picking the little stuck pieces of tape off of the harness after the flight...
The small rubber bands that are sold for kids braces work exactly the same but leave no residue on the harness.....

Hope this helps Nick,,,,

Teddy

Yes that helps Teddy - especially about the Z fold arranged so they wont tangle and lead to the next Z-fold if you will. Thanks for the kids brace rubber bands - yes, the masking tape makes a mess after awhile.

AHHH its good to smell burnt deployment charges again!

For Question 1: The isolation I spoke of is simply to not allow the first primary charge to ignite the backup charge when the primary goes off. The flame from the primary burnt to the point that it ignited the backup charge even though i had the backup covered with masking tape (isolated may have been a poor choice of words).

Drogue charge pictures - the primary ignited the backup charge during the test



The below video - I tested the MAIN primary charge - also had the backup charge packed - but this time I covered with 2 pieces electrical tape. (The nose cone has a sock on it for protection as it slides across the snow) The primary charge DID NOT affect the backup charge so the back up charge stayed intact. So NOTE TO SELF - masking tape is not enough for redundant unless you really tape the crap out of it.

The Main charge test - used electrical tape on the backup charge and the primary DID NOT burn the backup. However, I have not tested the backup charge to see if the electrical tape affects the POP of the backup charge, but i doubt it would cause an issue.



[video]https://youtu.be/VNlPvgDZqoU[/video]

Thanks for your help Teddy as always.
Time to fix some paint - install some stickers and clear coat. Not sure if first flight will happen this weekend since the conditions not looking good for Three oaks MI. Cloudy, snow and 16 mph winds. QCRS shows partly cloudy, so i'll make the call saturday morning.

1---
I like the way you worded it Nick,,
one "Z" fold should neatly lead to the next,,
but it's extremely important that the restraint is all the way to one end and that end has both tag ends....
This will make the restraint pop with the very first tiny bit of tension as the harness is laying out on deployment...

2--
Isolation,,
I like Doghouses's charge wells,, I use their regular ones,, I use their all in ones w/ terminal screws like you have there,,
and I also make my own out of plumbing copper and pipe caps sweated / soldered on...
I always have enough room in the well for the powder and barf,, the least barf I've ever had was 1/4" to 3/8" packed..
I pack the barf down quite tightly the and lay of masking tape across the top,, then another lay of masking tape 90 degrees to the first,,
then a wrap of masking tape around the well to hold all the other tape on.. When I'm done the well is packed rather tightly in the hope of holding the burn together until ALL of the powder has a chance to ignite,, rather then get blown away and not igniting....
With this method I have never had a charge going off ignite the charge next to it....... Ever.....

Something's up there Nick........

Teddy

Use a high quality aluminum tape to cap your charge wells--you will get no cross firing.

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate your help - I'll tighten up my pack and tape technique.

repaired the paint - still have some little black touch up, CP and CG stickers and clear - but here is pretty much the finished product.

can't wait to fly it.

Interesting notes about cross firing. Hadn't heard of that before. How many times do you go over the top with masking tape? I use the method Teddy taught me, over the top in an "x"fashion, back and forth and back and forth a bunch of times, maybe 5 or 6, and haven't seen this kind of failure.

Awesome looking paint by the way!
Nate

Measured and marked for actual CG with the J330 - 38-6gr I plan on flying on Saturday at QCRS. Epoxied the rail button backer nut and added some epoxy to the NC bulkhead mount. Then sprayed the first several coats of clear, drilled motor delay for extra backup. Prepped all the charges with mucho tape this time - I'll pack the laundry tomorrow night for Sat first flight. OR says 3900' @ 420mph with a 12.8 sec delay.

Nick,

Your FireStick XL looks awesome! We've enjoyed watching your build and Thank you. I hope the weather cooperates for you this weekend, and good luck on your flight.

Mike Crupe
MAC Performance Rocketry
www.macperformancerocketry.com

FLY CANVAS!

That looks really, really nice. Have a great flight!

Thanks Mike and John, its been a really fun build. maybe the next will be a 4" with a 75mm.

all loaded up - flying in 20 degree weather is ? crazy, addicted, obsessive, worth it, great. Like being able for a racer to smell burning methanol in the winter



also received my blankets from Teddy @ one bad hawk today - just in time, thanks Teddy
Tomorrow have a package coming from Crazy Jim - will be stocked up on igniters.

First flight happened this weekend at QCRS, not to be a drama king, but something was telling me I shouldn't go. Started before light - driving in ice, so many cars crashed and off the road, behind salt trucks driving 20 mph for miles, running late, etc. Cloudy, snowy at the start but as we approached northern IL the skys cleared right up and the land was flat - good to to fly rockets

At i think 17 degrees for my first flight of the day - I flew my trusty Super batray aaaaand killed it. COupler stuck - came in ballistic from 1400' - I saw both charges go off - but not enough to push out the laundry. I packed the rocket the night before, never flying in extreme cold, i think I got in a hurry trying to get the motor loaded and to the pad. Killed my tracker and my trusty L1 rocket that had 14 flights on it - electronics and everything else is salvageable.

So I checked my NC and AV couplers for fit and they were no different from in the garage. So loaded up the J330 - estimated at 3900 and 400 mph. Put the rocket on the pad - armed both altimeter circuits. The rocket shot off the pad just fine - long coast (13 sec). Drogue deployed at apogee perfectly (drogueless). Looking good unfortunately had and issue with the main chute charge so the main didn't deploy and the rocket smacked down pretty hard at 70 ft per sec. Probably would've been ok but the ground was frozen hunks of harvested field so a little damage to a fin and the payload section of airframe. Mike has already got me one coming so I can repair it and get it back in the air.
Both altimeters beeped the altitude - RRC3 - 3616ft, RRC2 - 3558 ft. 375 mph

the video is just the up part and at the end you can see the apogee charge and separation (Sorry for the crapped video quality - trying to follow with an Iphone). All in all it was good to finally go to a QCRS launch which i've wanted to do for a couple years now. Good to meet the QCRS guys and a great place to launch.



[video=youtube;hcDc-XWR6bc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcDc-XWR6bc[/video]

Thanks for watching the build thread. I'lll post again once I can send it up on the K445 and K515 that i have slated for it early spring or late winter. Maybe Three Oaks MI launch in March.

Sorry to hear. Did you figure out why the main didn't pop?

Oh man Nick,,,
I'm really sorry to hear that. ...
That's OK though. ..
You'll get it back right again and it'll be in the air in no time. .....

Teddy

Been awhile on this flight so an update.

The flight (up part was fine), about 3600' I could see the smoke trail and distinctly saw apogee charge puff and the backup charge puff. Could see fluttering ... Good. Very windy that day, as its fluttering down (coming right towards us) - 600' PUFF goes the main charge... But no chute ...we see something ... Then PUFF backup, no chute and pieces start fluttering down. We thought not enough charge. I was in discussions with Mike at MAC and CJ in trying to figure out why, what happened. In hind site here is what happen.

... Ejection charge at 600' cracked the payload airframe, the backup charge at 500' blew the cracked part of the airframe away... So couldn't develop the pressure to push the laundry out. At first I thought maybe issue with the airframe, then not enough charge, but Mike figured out what it was. In building this rocket you can tell the canvas is tough so what happened. First, Mike really took care of me. I shipped the airframe back to him since he said over 150 rockets and I'm the first. We both wanted to know why. Well this ended up being my fault and this is how...

Back story:
I originally tested my ejection charges with both primary and backup loaded and during testing the primary went off fine and test looked great, but the primary actually burned the backup.

Thinking I didn't have enough tape / or dog barf insulating the charge. So what I did was pack my charges too tight. I really shoved too much barf , too tight in the plastic charge well, then taped the crap out of it and what this caused as Mike figured out was a mini pipe bomb, and literally blew the charge well apart. I noticed the was a broken Charge well, being disgusted with my day, 2 flights and 2 broken rockets I just threw it all in a pile to sort out later....oh wait, what side was that broken charge well... Payload side hmm that didn't come from hitting the ground.

So I'm in rebuild mode and will change to the glove technique. Live and learn, after all we all want to learn why, so maybe you learned alittle from this as well... DONT pack your charges too tight. CJ shared his glove charge technique in his 3" punisher build.

Anyway the rocket is mostly back together and painting today and I've ordered another camera and it is here, also my Landru camera shrouds are here.

I will test again once I do the glove charges to make sure I'm doing it properly and have planned the redemption flight in March at QCRS or the 2 day Michiana Launch in April.
I'll keep it low again to watch and have charges ready to for a second flight.

Really glad that Mike figured this out, sorry for his airframe which he sent me everything at his cost, very generous. I also have my LOC Magnum charges done the same way, after the 2 broken rockets I decided not to fly the 3rd and it was a good thing, most likely would have been 0 for 3.

Pics to come later

Geez Nick,,
I'm really sorry man..
I know I told you to pack em tight but I guess if the charge wells were blown apart they were too tight..
I'm sorry man..
I pack mine tight but not crazy tight...
I am sorry Nick...

Teddy

It's all good, tight is a perspective, jamming in with a pencil eraser is a lil too tight . It was my fault - glad I now know. A bullet casing would
Have held it, but not crazy about that sharp edge on the igniters.

Now my next question is a basic one.

My AV bay is riveted to the payload section, this is next to the ejection charge. Now it is making more sense to rivet the nose cone side and shear pin the AV bay / payload connection. Otherwise the ejection charge could require compressing the laundry prior to popping the cone off.

Advice? Thoughts?

Was able to make some progress today. Replaced the plastic charge wells with Copper 1/2" caps. Epoxied the existing hole shut and insulated the outside of the caps (I am using the knurled 4-40 nuts for the igniter and wanted to eliminate any possibility of shorting on the copper cap.





Today was to wet outside to test my first run at the glove tip method

So this is the new payload airframe and nose cone - clearcoated those today

Good luck Nick,,,
Looks gorgeous man...
Everything's going to work perfectly...

Teddy

Good luck on your "new" maiden flight!