70cm Beeline GPS - 16mW vs. 100mW

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AlnessW

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I am planning on getting my HAM Technician license soon (but we all know that's a relative term) and purchasing a 70cm Beeline GPS transmitter to use alongside my existing BRB900 setup.

Currently debating the 16mW vs. 100mW versions - according to Greg, the ranges of both are 60K and 250K, respectively. I've inquired with a few friends of mine and the general consensus so far is to go with the higher-power 100mW.

Then for a receiver, the Kenwood TH-D72 seems like a good choice, though a bit spendy, as it has a built-in TNC decoder. (Also recommended to me by Greg.)

Now soliciting feedback...
 
If memory serves, you can adjust the transmit power. So, as a polite user of bandwidth, you don't have to run 100mW on every launch.

I really like that Kenwood rig. Everything in one piece to give you a bearing to your rocket.

And with a decent gain antenna you can still DF.
 
If memory serves, you can adjust the transmit power. So, as a polite user of bandwidth, you don't have to run 100mW on every launch.

I really like that Kenwood rig. Everything in one piece to give you a bearing to your rocket.

And with a decent gain antenna you can still DF.
Thanks - didn't realize it was adjustable...
"DF?"
 
Sorry, direction finding based upon signal strength. True, you want a slower packet rate with an APRS system which can make DF a pain. But it can probably get you close enough that packets will start decoding again.
 
Sorry, direction finding based upon signal strength. True, you want a slower packet rate with an APRS system which can make DF a pain. But it can probably get you close enough that packets will start decoding again.
Got it - thanks! Greg told me not to mess with a directional antenna (since you don't know where the rocket is anyways) but good to know regardless.

Wilson, your PM box is full.
Empty it and get in touch with me on this.

s6
Just cleared some messages - try again now or drop me an email at [email protected].
 
I am planning on getting my HAM Technician license soon (but we all know that's a relative term) and purchasing a 70cm Beeline GPS transmitter to use alongside my existing BRB900 setup.

Currently debating the 16mW vs. 100mW versions - according to Greg, the ranges of both are 60K and 250K, respectively. I've inquired with a few friends of mine and the general consensus so far is to go with the higher-power 100mW.

Then for a receiver, the Kenwood TH-D72 seems like a good choice, though a bit spendy, as it has a built-in TNC decoder. (Also recommended to me by Greg.)

Now soliciting feedback...

How far do you expect your rockets to fly and where are you going to mount the tracker?

As far as being courteous on the bands, if 70cm is busy in your area then by all means you could dial back but
I don't find it an issue whatsoever. I've been bit by Rf messing with deployment altimeters and witnessed others
who had the same problems.

If you're a sport flier, 100mW is overkill but it will give you a larger ground footprint once your rocket is down.
It's the last received packet above the ground that's going to get you to the general area and you'll likely get a
position packet as you approach the "ground footprint" of the tracker. You expect your rocket to land more than
a mile and a half from you with a lot of rocket eating ground vegetation? Higher power and an onboard beeper is
suggested or you could use the Yagi for the tracking and descent. Kinda of a pain to be swinging a Yagi but for my
rockets, I've used low power and a duck antenna on my D72 and have had no problems with the rockets that land within 2 miles of me. Talk to Greg Clark and he'll tell you he just uses a duck antenna with GPS tracking. I have yet to fly my 100mW BLGPS yet because I haven't had the need to or the flight profile that would necessitate it.

16mW can ride along in the ebay many times without trouble or interference next to the deployment electronics.

Get a used blue cased Garmin Legend, or 60Cs or 60CsX mapping GPS and with the appropriate cable, you can pipe the rocket waypoint to the Garmin and have a position on a map. Tell/lock the unit to "navigate to" while the rocket is on the pad and it will continuously calculate a heading solution in real time while the rocket is in flight. You can scroll from the map to the Heading Display Indicator and follow the course line and the Garmin will tell you your ETA to your rockets last known packet. By then, unless the rocket was really far away from you when you received the last packet, you'll get a final position.

One tip is when walking or driving to the rockets last known position, open the squelch on your D72A. You just might
hear the faint squawking of the tracker at a distance that indicates to you it is still functioning. The TNC is likely not able to decode such a weak signal but it is reassuring that once you get closer, a new packet will arrive with the final
resting place.

Mock up your installation in the rocket, attach bare, contained ematches in canisters and turn everything on. If the altimeters don't cycle or the ematches don't mysteriously pop in 30 to 60 minutes, you're in a good position of having a nominal flight. No guarantees of course but it's better to find out in a test than have the charges blow on the pad or not blow at all with the resultant ballistic flight. The low powered BLGPS units do better than the the higher powered ones with this and some deployment devices are more resistant to being bunged up by Rf than others. Nosecone mounting to put distance between the tracker antenna and the electronics helps.

The P6K, Adept 22's and the Entacore AIM 2 I've seen problems with Rf. I will credit Entacore as they place a caution in their manual concerning that. I use mine with lower fliers I don't need Rf tracking.

Use a laptop to track? PITA. Use only if you are familiar with the software and want to record the flight. To much trouble to depend upon for recovery. One needs a portable handheld solution to go after the rocket. If the tablets shrink smaller then a full featured tracking program might become viable.

Comments: APRS is a once every 5 second transmission of the position. Don't expect any GPS tracker to give you packets while under acceleration period. Also the vagaries of reception and propagation will result in missed packets. You might find yourself sweating a bit once the button is pushed and you don't see anything. The packets will start just before, during or most definitely after apogee and throughout the descent once every 5 seconds.
Add the starting field elevation to your selected main deployment and you can tell when the main is supposed to blow. I have my D72 set to the altitude reading as I also have it connected to a mapping GPS. I don't need the 72 to show me position and distance because I have that on the Garmin. I want to see the altitude. I can tell it's under drogue by the descent rate and when the main blows, it really slows down. This is very helpful especially for totally sight unseen flights. I've had a Wildman Jr. make more sight unseen flights than
flights where the events were seen. One landed .7 miles away and nothing was seen, yet
the main was out and the rocket was fine when I walked up to it.
The BLGPS can store positions as fast as 1/sec for later download for a .kml file one can display on google earth.

Other tracking solutions like the EggFinder GPS transmits the raw NMEA position packet code
1/sec like it's a USB GPS receiver attached to the laptop. Higher resolution but no onboard memory. Using Xastir as a tracking program and a script to spoof the program into thinking the incoming NMEA data is an APRS packet, the increased resolution is quite apparent. But again, a laptop as the sole tracking receiving station is a PITA. Soooo...... Have fun and
you'll be a lot more confident when your rocket goes completely sight unseen.

Kurt Savegnago
 
Thanks Kurt for all the info - responses in blue below:


How far do you expect your rockets to fly and where are you going to mount the tracker? In MOST cases, anywhere between 20K and 50K. Tracker goes in the nosecone with the exception of a few projects.

As far as being courteous on the bands, if 70cm is busy in your area then by all means you could dial back but I don't find it an issue whatsoever. I've been bit by Rf messing with deployment altimeters and witnessed others who had the same problems. Not really sure if our launch site is "busy" or not per se, but again, good to know. I'd be more worried about RF interference with other onboard avionics.

If you're a sport flier, 100mW is overkill but it will give you a larger ground footprint once your rocket is down. It's the last received packet above the ground that's going to get you to the general area and you'll likely get a position packet as you approach the "ground footprint" of the tracker. You expect your rocket to land more than a mile and a half from you with a lot of rocket eating ground vegetation? Higher power and an onboard beeper is suggested or you could use the Yagi for the tracking and descent. Kinda of a pain to be swinging a Yagi but for my rockets, I've used low power and a duck antenna on my D72 and have had no problems with the rockets that land within 2 miles of me. Talk to Greg Clark and he'll tell you he just uses a duck antenna with GPS tracking. I have yet to fly my 100mW BLGPS yet because I haven't had the need to or the flight profile that would necessitate it.
I wouldn't consider myself a sport flier (at least not most of the time). And yes, Greg informed me not to mess with a Yagi when using GPS since you don't know where the rocket is anyways. I currently use the BRB900 system so I'm quite familiar with the "last packet above the ground" to get you to the general vicinity, then receiving new data as you get closer to where it landed. Unless of course you're looking for a lawndart buried in the ground...

16mW can ride along in the ebay many times without trouble or interference next to the deployment electronics. Good to know, any idea about 100mW? Obviously I would test first, but just curious...

Get a used blue cased Garmin Legend, or 60Cs or 60CsX mapping GPS and with the appropriate cable, you can pipe the rocket waypoint to the Garmin and have a position on a map. Tell/lock the unit to "navigate to" while the rocket is on the pad and it will continuously calculate a heading solution in real time while the rocket is in flight. You can scroll from the map to the Heading Display Indicator and follow the course line and the Garmin will tell you your ETA to your rockets last known packet. By then, unless the rocket was really far away from you when you received the last packet, you'll get a final position. Also good tips - thanks. I just use a GPS app on my iPhone which has always worked very well for me.

One tip is when walking or driving to the rockets last known position, open the squelch on your D72A. You just might hear the faint squawking of the tracker at a distance that indicates to you it is still functioning. The TNC is likely not able to decode such a weak signal but it is reassuring that once you get closer, a new packet will arrive with the final resting place. Cool!

Mock up your installation in the rocket, attach bare, contained ematches in canisters and turn everything on. If the altimeters don't cycle or the ematches don't mysteriously pop in 30 to 60 minutes, you're in a good position of having a nominal flight. No guarantees of course but it's better to find out in a test than have the charges blow on the pad or not blow at all with the resultant ballistic flight. The low powered BLGPS units do better than the the higher powered ones with this and some deployment devices are more resistant to being bunged up by Rf than others. Nosecone mounting to put distance between the tracker antenna and the electronics helps. This all sounds like a very wise plan!

The P6K, Adept 22's and the Entacore AIM 2 I've seen problems with Rf. I will credit Entacore as they place a caution in their manual concerning that. I use mine with lower fliers I don't need Rf tracking. Good because I don't fly any of the above you mention.

Use a laptop to track? PITA. Use only if you are familiar with the software and want to record the flight. To much trouble to depend upon for recovery. One needs a portable handheld solution to go after the rocket. If the tablets shrink smaller then a full featured tracking program might become viable. Yes, handheld devices are definitely the way to go there!

Comments: APRS is a once every 5 second transmission of the position. Don't expect any GPS tracker to give you packets while under acceleration period. Also the vagaries of reception and propagation will result in missed packets. You might find yourself sweating a bit once the button is pushed and you don't see anything. The packets will start just before, during or most definitely after apogee and throughout the descent once every 5 seconds.
Add the starting field elevation to your selected main deployment and you can tell when the main is supposed to blow. I have my D72 set to the altitude reading as I also have it connected to a mapping GPS. I don't need the 72 to show me position and distance because I have that on the Garmin. I want to see the altitude. I can tell it's under drogue by the descent rate and when the main blows, it really slows down. This is very helpful especially for totally sight unseen flights. I've had a Wildman Jr. make more sight unseen flights than
flights where the events were seen. One landed .7 miles away and nothing was seen, yet
the main was out and the rocket was fine when I walked up to it.
The BLGPS can store positions as fast as 1/sec for later download for a .kml file one can display on google earth.
My BRB900 is set up the same way - transmits once every 5 seconds. I've also grown very accustomed to the "sweating bullets waiting for new packets after apogee." Thankfully, with upgrading to a higher-power GPS, I anticipate/hope this "suspense" will be greatly shortened.

Other tracking solutions like the EggFinder GPS transmits the raw NMEA position packet code 1/sec like it's a USB GPS receiver attached to the laptop. Higher resolution but no onboard memory. Using Xastir as a tracking program and a script to spoof the program into thinking the incoming NMEA data is an APRS packet, the increased resolution is quite apparent. But again, a laptop as the sole tracking receiving station is a PITA. Soooo...... Have fun and you'll be a lot more confident when your rocket goes completely sight unseen.
Yep, as I alluded to before, most all of my flights these days are "sight-unseen" so it is always a great feeling watching the decent rate from apogee all the way down, then slowing down greatly when the main deploys, and then finally walking right to the rocket all in pristine condition. Again, describing best case scenario here... :)

Kurt Savegnago
 
Hmmmm, If going up to 50k land where drifting can be an issue even with a drogueless descent, more Rf power should be welcomed and make sure the deployment electronics can stand the Rf. I've been told by those that fly out west on
the playa that the environment there sucks up Rf like a sponge and it's considered prudent to blow the main as high up as practicable. One fellow mentions 2000' so they have enough time to get packets or a fix before the rocket descends too
low. Heck some altimeters can't be set that high!

My latest project was trying to get a portable mapping solution for the EggFinders using YAAC (Yet Another APRS Client) Yeah it's a Ham Radio app but the author Andrew Pavlin added code so one could monitor a second port for NMEA data besides
monitoring a port for ones current GPS position. One just picks a name and an icon (Rocket of course) for the port where the Eggfinder receiver is paired and one is in business.

Nice thing is the maps are free, one doesn't have to be a "Ham" to use the program with the EggFinders and the program is free. Runs absolutely perfectly under java/Linux even as I set it up as a non-Ham user. Paired a Royaltek B/T GPS and my
EggFinder LCD HC-06 Bluetooth and Holy WOW! Rocket on a map!

Sooooooo, I got me a WinBook TW801 (A $70.00 TW700 should be workable too) put YAAC on a MicroSD card and went at it. Found out java/Windows Bluetooth is not the same as far as YAAC is concerned. Windows pairs devices on two comm ports.
Sometimes one directs their app to use one port or the other and it will work. With YAAC, the program locks up when trying to access either port and has to be killed using the task manager. Drat!!!

I'm trying to gently post in the YAAC group and not be pushy. If the Eggfinder receiver won't work, other devices like Mobilinkd bluetooth TNCs and AP510 2 meter APRS tracker transceivers are unusable with YAAC in Windows then.

The problem is application specific too. The tracking program APRSIS32 has a specific "Bluetooth" choice when setting up ports. One just pairs their device in the Windows Bluetooth setup, fires up APRSIS32 to setup their ports and it deals with the Windows vagaries. All those devices I name work perfectly in APRSIS32. I can pair the Eggfinder receiver as a GPS and it will put an icon on the map.

Well, if a flier has some Linux experience and has Java installed, they can try YAAC and see that it works. Just setup the base station with the "wizard" and then go to the Advanced setup to configure the ports.

It's easy enough to walk the line and get the two icons close together to get the rocket. In the Midwest, nice to see the drainage ditches in your way or if it will be easier to drive on a nearby road closer to the recovery area.
I'm told out in the "featureless" West, this ability really isn't that necessary and I could appreciate that. I'm probably not going to move there and will continue to try to find the rockets as quickly as possible so I can move on
and fly another project instead of wasting time trying to find the last flight. Kurt Savegnago :smile:

https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a/QCRS&timerange=3600&tail=3600
 
I am looking at the 70cm 16wm gps unit currently right now.
I haven't jumped on it yet, my wife has my credit card hostage after my level 3 rocket/motor purchase.

I currently have been using the 70cm beacon transmitter and fox hunting out the signal with good success.
I did lose signal after it landing in the big icky in Muskegon, MI.. stupid poop pond!
My fox hunting setup is a Kenwood TH-D72a or a cheap china HT with an three element yagi antenna.
It took some practice to learn the fox hunting, but with the help of the local ham club it was easy to learn.
Ham Fox hunting is a fun event, I use an HT, with a directorial antenna (3 element works the best for me) then I off set the rx freq when i get too much signal in.

With my Kenwood TM-D710g in my van I can store it local on the radio and it will second the data packets out the comm serial port.
So I can hook my laptop on to the TM-D710g, and record all of the ARPS packets into APRSIS32 or UISS.

My plan this spring is to use the big red bee gps unit with aprs back to the van to my TM-D710g and laptop hooked up and in the field TH-D72a in aprs mode with a 3 element yagi.
Backup will be a big red bee beacon and my dad on a cheap china radio with a 7 element yagi fox hunting.

Oh on a side note, my dad has been playing with the eggfinder systems.
So in the next year or so we should have a good solid tracking solution.

Good luck on your ham exam, I past my general exam last spring.

~Russ
 
You can configure the output power so unless money is the issue there's no reason to go 16mW.

I recommend https://hamstudy.org/ as a good study guide for the technician exam.
 
You already have the receive stations for APRS!:wink: Get the Beeline 16mW. You'll never go back to RDF for rocket tracking again unless size constraints require you to use an RDF tracker. Some use RDF for "backup" but I don't think that's necessary if the mounting of the APRS tracker is secure and the battery is in good shape. Buy a used Garmin 60Cs or 60CsX, plop some free OSM maps on a micro SD card and you'll have a pedestrian portable navigation solution you can take out into the field. You can still get the serial cable for the Garmins to plug into the D72 and use the Garmins GPS for your position and it will plot the rocket waypoint on the map.
Carry the Yagi with you as you proceed to the last known position packet and you'll increase the ground footprint of the Beeline APRS tracker. Will get that final
position and you'll be as good as gold.
You might want to consider a Sainsonic AP510 for 2 meter APRS rocket tracking if your projects have the room. 1.1 watt output would really buy one some range as long as the Rf doesn't interfere with the deployment electronics.

Another mapping option for APRS would be APRSIS32 on a Windows tablet. Pair the tablet like a WinBook to an outboard B/T GPS for your position and connect it to APRSIS32.
Get a Mobilinkd TNC, pair it and APRSIS32 can access it. One can download and cache the older but still usable Mapquest photomaps for no internet required use in the field and display the positions on a photomap overlay. My WinBook fits in the same box the inside of which is painted flat black for viewing that my Nexus
7 2013 resides. For Android use there is APRS Droid with a portable OSM mapset available that will pair to a 2 meter only AP510 or a Mobilinkd TNC one can use with any H/T. Only problem with 'Droid in order to get your station position to "move" as you walk towards your rocket, you have to hit the pull down and transmit a packet. A nuisance but still very workable. With the EggFinders, the Android app "GPS Rocket Locator" is workable but if no internet connection onsite, you just get two points and a datum line. In the Midwest, nice to know the geographical features one has to negotiate or the nearest roads to the recovery site. Out in the "featureless" West, not so much a problem.
I'm hoping that the bluetooth situation with YAAC might change as it is really easy to setup for the EggFinders and one can download free Open Source Maps.
One WOULD NOT have to be a Ham to use it either. It works fine on a Linux laptop but not in Windows. If one has a USB based Eggfinder receiver it will work on a WinBook with the EggFinder receiver plugged into the full-sized USB 2.0 port. If interested post and I'll give the details. Kurt Savegnago
 
You can configure the output power so unless money is the issue there's no reason to go 16mW.

I recommend https://hamstudy.org/ as a good study guide for the technician exam.

Zebedee, I was going to shoot my mouth off about the 16mW vs. 100mW comparison but held my tongue. I whipped out my scale and weighed my two 16mW BLGPS units and the 100mW one. The 100mW one is 10 grams lighter. One of my 16mW units is 16 grams heavier after I had to replace the stock battery with something that has a little more capacity. The old battery wore out it was so old. The 100mW I have is 40gms without the antenna.

Soooooooo..... I stand corrected, you are right. Get the 100mW one if one can afford it and dial it down if need be.

One thing I have noted among some fliers is they have Greg program in the callsign/frequency and get it shipped to them. I've seen quite a few "flying house" icons on tracking programs. Folks just want to find their rocket (which is fine) and don't
care about recording or downloading .kml files.

Kurt Savegnago
 
Kurt - I hadn't thought about weight - that could have been a reason to go 16mW. Interesting that the 100mW is lighter, newer model?
 
Kurt - I hadn't thought about weight - that could have been a reason to go 16mW. Interesting that the 100mW is lighter, newer model?

Yes the 100mW is the newer model. The only other consideration is I think the run time on the 16mW unit might be longer but cripes, we're finding these things long before the battery runs out!
(Except when stupidhead here missed the leg on the apogee charge when screwing it in on the terminal block. The Peanut altimeter give the same continuity reading for one ematch as with two so I didn't know.
Main shockcord snapped with main came out and rocket augered in. BLGPS was pulverized to oblivion. Got the remains 18 months later and I blew the apogee charge with a launch panel. It worked.)

Kurt
 
That's a good one. I'll dig up my pics of my remains. Looked just about the same. I still have the nosecone that was sliced by a fin on the Talon 2. I put a new battery and piezo on the Peanut and downloaded the ballistic flight. The G meter was pegged
and out of range but recorded 86G's when it hit. Kurt
 
So my wife gave me a PO to order a new big red bee gps for my birthday!

I went with the 70cm 16mw with the SMA connector.
I am going to use the sma connector wipe that comes with it.
but later I could add the antenna out of the ebay later.

Currently with my Ultimate Wildman Kit, I have a 3in x 12in tracker bay built in the nose cone :)

I went with the 16mw,
#1 I am not going over 30k feet in the areas I fly. Midwest powers is 25k I believe. If I make it out to black rock in the future, I will have the funds to buy an other one :)
#2 I have a cheap wife plus 3 kids, every penny counts!

Happy flying guys
~Russ N8RSH
 
One caution. Do not spray paint the nosecone with a metallic paint. I did that and the Rustoleum Metallic will suck up the Rf from the tracker like a sponge.
Use a plain pigment non-metallic paint and do a range test on the ground. I'm so paranoid I'll hoist my tracker bays up in a tree 10 or 15 feet and take a walk in the neighborhood. Kurt
 
Hi all - thanks for the various tips! A couple of notes...

Big thank you to stealth6 for selling me his 100mW unit for a killer price (after seeing this thread), and getting it shipped out so quickly. So I will be using the 100mW version! As Zebedee mentioned, I can always turn down the power if I need to...

Kurt - do you have any side-by-side photos of the 16mW and 100mW transmitters? I've also used metallic paint before without issue.

I am definitely going with the Kenwood TH-D72a as a receiver, just need to cough up the funds for one.
Studying for the technician exam as we speak...
 
Hi all - thanks for the various tips! A couple of notes...

Big thank you to stealth6 for selling me his 100mW unit for a killer price (after seeing this thread), and getting it shipped out so quickly. So I will be using the 100mW version! As Zebedee mentioned, I can always turn down the power if I need to...

Kurt - do you have any side-by-side photos of the 16mW and 100mW transmitters? I've also used metallic paint before without issue.

I am definitely going with the Kenwood TH-D72a as a receiver, just need to cough up the funds for one.
Studying for the technician exam as we speak...

Again, be careful with metallic paints. I launched two rockets with trackers, one right
after the other and I only received one packet at altitude with the one that went 10k.
The other crashed and I lost the BeelineGPS. That was a big owwwwieeee!

The footprint of both are the same. The older 16mW versions I have are a little thicker. The 100mW is the same size but a little "thinner". If you're investing in a D72 you might as well get real time tracking capability with a used Garmin 60Cs or 60CsX.

IMG_20160125_221202.jpg Plug the Garmin into the com port of the D72
and you can use it to plot the rocket waypoint
on the map and see your position at the
same time. (Click on pics for larger size)

IMG_20160125_221233.jpg Backside view. Cable is still available. Lock the rocket position in while it's still on the pad and it will compute the navigation solution in real time. I set the window on the D72A to read off the altitude on the rocket waypoint as I can see the position on the map. You can download free open source maps if you don't need a comprehensive POI directory a Garmin subscription will provide.

I just mastered a graphical mapping solution for a Windows tablet using APRSIS32 and the
EggFinder trackers. The test screensaves are in this thread and I'm very impressed.
You can't go wrong with the D72A/Garmin setup. If the rocket is out of range, you have the last position on the map that the Garmin has locked and is giving you a datum line to follow.
You can open the squelch on the D72 after the rocket is down and if you can hear the packets
just coming in above the hash, you'll know that the TNC will eventually be able to decode a final position packet as you get closer. You'll be able to hear the squawking above the static of the open squelch before the TNC can decode it. Nice technique.

Now if you then want to try graphical tracking with an EggFinder, I just figured it out a couple of days ago. Look at the link below and scroll to the bottom for the screen saves.
Maps are downloadable and usable off line. The learning curve for this trick is a lot higher than with the APRS tracking technique outlined above. But... You can work with APRSIS32 with a D72 to get the hang of it and later give it a shot if you want to try graphical tracking on a Windows tablet with an EggFinder.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-Mapping-Program-Update&p=1543086#post1543086


Kurt
 
Last edited:
I am definitely going with the Kenwood TH-D72a as a receiver, just need to cough up the funds for one.
Studying for the technician exam as we speak...

Wilson, I bought the ARRL Tech exam book with the CD. I read the book then used the CD to run threw the questions about 20 times. Past the first time. Did the same thing for my General test.

A month or so ago, one of the ham on the local talknet told everyone about https://www.shenware.com/downloads.html . which is a free exam program.
I am going to give this a try when I upgrade to Extra.

Good luck!!
 
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