Rattle Cans 101: What exactly constitutes a "coat"

neil_w · Dec 8, 2015

I'm working on completing my fourth rocket since becoming a BAR this summer, and while I've gotten some decent results, my rattle can technique (Rusto 2x or metallic) is still sorely lacking. I have concluded that my biggest problem is that I really don't know what a proper "coat" is, particularly the "light" coats that are supposed to come first, before finishing (in some cases) with a "heavy" coat.

I seem to be having particular problems with fins; in my efforts to hit the fins from all angles (to get the various edges covered) I am getting uneven results with some runs. I'm doing better with even runs across the length of the rocket, rotisserie style, but even there I'm a long way from perfect.

So, it's a two-part question:

1) Exactly how much coverage should a "light" coat yield? For example, does the first coat provide complete coverage, or will it still be partially transparent? If the latter, how many coats should it take before full coverage is achieved? Possibly I've been erring in trying to achieve full coverage with each coat (while somehow not applying too heavily).

2) What is the best approach to painting fins, such that all the edges get coated properly while achieving an even end product, and without laying it on too heavy?

As always I look forward to your wisdom.

watermelonman · Dec 8, 2015

My best results come when no coat provides complete coverage, then I come back and do more later. It takes time, lots of time.

mpitfield · Dec 8, 2015

1 pass for me is 1 coat. I find if I focus on "full coverage" I tend to get runs. So slow and easy is my approach. When I spray I do 3 passes with the re-coat time in between, then wet sand with 600 several days later, then another 3 passes, etc. until I have a decent base.

I also avoid a "heavy coat"

rstaff3 · Dec 8, 2015

Some brands coat better than others. I've had many cases where to get a full coat you also get a run of two. I'm with watermellonman. If you want to be sure, err of the side of too light and recoat as required according to the timing requirements on the paint you are using.

Oberon · Dec 8, 2015

My trouble has always been that if I don't do at least one heavy coat (or at least "full coverage") at the end, I get a patchy finish (especially with glosses and clears) because there's not enough paint to flow out and self level. Any ideas?

As for fin edges, I usually give them a good blast on the very first coat, and then kind of ignore them on subsequent coats. Otherwise the overspray from doing the fin edges ends up spoiling the even coverage on the fins and/or body tube.

mpitfield · Dec 8, 2015

Oberon said:
My trouble has always been that if I don't do at least one heavy coat (or at least "full coverage") at the end, I get a patchy finish (especially with glosses and clears) because there's not enough paint to flow out and self level. Any ideas?

As for fin edges, I usually give them a good blast on the very first coat, and then kind of ignore them on subsequent coats. Otherwise the overspray from doing the fin edges ends up spoiling the even coverage on the fins and/or body tube.

Leaving dry spots on clear can be a problem and ideally you should get a final full coverage but not at the expense of runs. Keep in mind that the clear just protects the base coat, the finish is a progressive sand and polish. I use 1000, 1500 and finally 2000 wet sand then apply a wax finish. For my wax finish I use the Sonus 1, 2 system then a carnauba wax.

It looks as smooth as glass and I find the paint more durable.

kcobbva · Dec 8, 2015

I did a lot of research on rattle cans lately, and still haven't really made my mind up, but have really looked at the Plutonium paint line. I saw this videoand it really looked good; however I've not talked to anyone who's used it yet, so I'm leaning more toward duplicolor, because I would have to mail order and don't know how it'll hold up. I am really intrigued by the coverage and lack of runs they show in their video. I'd always used rustoleum on my previous projects up until my torrent which will be dupli-color. Thin thin coats. And as mpitfield said before, a light sand after a few, then a final few thin coats. [video=vimeo;64453507]https://vimeo.com/64453507[/video]

dixontj93060 · Dec 8, 2015

neil_w said:
1) Exactly how much coverage should a "light" coat yield? For example, does the first coat provide complete coverage, or will it still be partially transparent? If the latter, how many coats should it take before full coverage is achieved? Possibly I've been erring in trying to achieve full coverage with each coat (while somehow not applying too heavily).

2) What is the best approach to painting fins, such that all the edges get coated properly while achieving an even end product, and without laying it on too heavy?

This is somewhat tough to describe and takes some practice. Your first coat is a "very light" coat that is "misted" on (but not from too far away as the droplets might dry before hitting the rocket yielding hard to remove pebbles) leaving a complete, but transparent coat. Key is to let this mist coat dry for 5+ minutes. The reason for this is because in the drying process it develops tack and helps the next light, but not fully transparent coat adhere. That first two-part round I call the "first coat." Once you get 20 min. to an hour into the drying of "first coat" then repeat the process for the second coat but only moving to a slightly more "heavily misted" first coat (wait for tack) and then a non-transparent second coat. I call that my "second coat." The last coat I do no more than 30 min. after the "second coat" and it is my final "heavy" coat. There is still some tack from the first two coats and you are trying to run up/down the rocket (or painted surface) with a "wet edge." A "wet edge" is seen by looking into the glare/shine on the surface of the rocket (or painted surface) and verifying your spray is overlapping and the droplets immediately meld into the paint coat. Do not stop and do not go directly over a previously painted area. Simply swing the can back and forth and rotate/move rocket/object maintaining the wet edge. Once you move all around the paint section only then might you rotate through a second time to verify the paint is going down correctly. Note in this final step you are putting on considerably more paint than the first two rounds, but you are doing it in a measured/systematic way so you never get too close or re-spray an area which could result in drips/sagging. It really is no different for fin edges except I try to move my spray can away a couple inches when doing edges to get more of a mist application.

mpitfield · Dec 8, 2015

kcobbva said:
I did a lot of research on rattle cans lately, and still haven't really made my mind up, but have really looked at the Plutonium paint line. I saw this videoand it really looked good; however I've not talked to anyone who's used it yet, so I'm leaning more toward duplicolor, because I would have to mail order and don't know how it'll hold up. I am really intrigued by the coverage and lack of runs they show in their video. I'd always used rustoleum on my previous projects up until my torrent which will be dupli-color. Thin thin coats. And as mpitfield said before, a light sand after a few, then a final few thin coats. [video=vimeo;64453507]https://vimeo.com/64453507[/video]

I will let you know how the Plutonium paint is. I have a build that I have been looking for a nice deep pink and super bright white and they have some nice colours to chose from. I ordered 4 cans of vegas pink, 2 cans of deep space black, 5 cans of polar white, 4 cans of clear gloss and a set of the 6 caps.

kcobbva · Dec 8, 2015

mpitfield said:
I will let you know how the Plutonium paint is. I have a build that I have been looking for a nice deep pink and super bright white and they have some nice colours to chose from. I ordered 4 cans of vegas pink, 2 cans of deep space black, 5 cans of polar white, 4 cans of clear gloss and a set of the 6 caps.

Please do! I'm very interested to see how it works out for you and if you'd recommend it afterwards.

rcktnut · Dec 8, 2015

Practice makes perfect or good enough anyway! After priming, and letting dry I sand with 400 grit, and then usually do 3 finish coats depending on the paints coverage. I hang mine vertically. All 3 coats are done around 5-10 minutes apart. Never sanded a finish coat. I do fin bottoms on 2 coats, final coat they are ignored. The leading edges are done on the swipe that goes on the tube above them. Like mentioned keep a wet edge, light coats better than heavy, concentrate on nice steady even motion. Lots of light helps a lot also. Then go out and fly them and scratch em up!!!

BTW that Plutonium video didn't prove anything to me. No way to tell quality of finished job. Too fast drying isn't good either, accept for maybe what he was painting.

321_BlastOff · Dec 8, 2015

First coat for me is very light, just dust it per say.
Second coat maybe 5 mins after, just a little thicker, after this coat I should have about 50% coverage as of now.
Third coat is about 5-10mins later and this coat is pretty thick but still not a (wet) coat but now its almost full coverage.
Forth coat about 10-15mins later and this is a wet coat, nice and thick full coverage.
Now I wait for it to dry 48hr or so and wet sand with 600. Repeat coats 1-4 again, wet sand (if your going to clear) or don't if no clear and then move on.

Pat_B · Dec 9, 2015

I like 2-3 light coats with drying time into the hours so long as the paint instructions don't require it all to be done in one hour or more than 48 hours.

The secret to the final coat is to spray lightly but with the goal of achieving 100% paint coverage. As your light coats are going on, you'll eventually see that the light coats will suddenly blend together as the amount of paint builds up. This comes quickly, and it's really important to stop painting at that point or you'll get runs. But you do have to have that final coat be a 'wet' coat that blends together. It just helps that the prior coats achieved enough coverage that you are no longer trying to 'cover' the rocket in 'color'; but rather, you're now just getting that final gloss coat that runs together while still wet.

kcobbva · Dec 9, 2015

rcktnut said:
BTW that Plutonium video didn't prove anything to me. No way to tell quality of finished job. Too fast drying isn't good either, accept for maybe what he was painting.

Ahh Good point. Didn't think about the fast drying. I'm open to all opinions as it interested me, but not enough to buy as I didn't have any data/experience backing up what I saw. The running is what caught me as I had been plagued in the past with Pinewood derby and rockets. Although it's my own fault getting in a hurry and trying to overcoat instead of mist. Patience is a virtue.

neil_w · Dec 9, 2015

Well I'm certainly glad I asked this question, because it confirms my suspicion that I was trying to do way too much with each coat (particularly the early ones). I'll try to suppress the urge to get full coverage on each coat and see how things go.

Micromeister · Dec 9, 2015

rcktnut said:
Practice makes perfect or good enough anyway!

Not a good analogy! Practice makes Permanent not perfect! if you practice something incorrectly you will continue to do the same thing over and over.

What we are looking for in a Coat is consistency with both Spray Can or Gun speed while maintaining the same distance from the surface being sprayed. A single pass is Generally considered a Coat. While the Speed and distance determine if it is a Light Misting or Heavy wet coat.

Fins and other protrusions are generally hit first making sure to get all edges at the same time, Then apply the "Coat" to the entire model including the freshly applied fin areas without adding to much additional paint to these areas.

neil_w · Dec 9, 2015

Micromeister said:
Not a good analogy! Practice makes Permanent not perfect! if you practice something incorrectly you will continue to do the same thing over and over.

That pretty well describes my "practice" thus far. :facepalm:

Micromeister · Dec 9, 2015

neil_w said:
That pretty well describes my "practice" thus far.

LOL! Oh Man can I identify with that

Let me give another example of why gun speed and distance make all the difference in creating a Good paint job.
Yellows....any yellow is by far the hardest color to apply. Why because it is so transparent. it can NOT be applied by eye. It must be done by speed and distance. Choose the gun speed you like and maintain the same distance for the surface being painted. Staring from well before the Nose all the way past the aft end in a single stroke then turn the model 1/4 turn and repeat. Keep this up until you have gone all the way around the model (this makes your first "Coat"). Now let this coat rest at least 5 minutes.
Repeat with the next Coat using the same speed and distance. Single pass nose to aft , 1/4turn and repeat. DO NOT LOOK at the coverage until you have done this process at least 3 times. If after Three complete timed coat you still see light and dark area, add an additional coat using the same Speed and Distance process.
You Will end up with a perfectly even bright yellow paint job.

Hope this helps confirm the Pass timing and distance from the surface procedure.

415_MM Doubles 2-Stage (Fliskit)_10-10-15.jpg

KenECoyote · Dec 9, 2015

Sorry if I've missed it, but I think a very helpful step not focused on here is the base coat. I use gray Rusto Filler Primer first, then fill and sand, then again if needed, then the first coat of paint and so on. The base coat being gray allows a variety of colors to go on very easily (especially red and yellow which often look terrible and require a lot of coats if going over bare tubing).

The other tips mentioned earlier are great...keep it thin if possible since drips really mess things up, but try to keep the layer looking "wet".

Also try to ensure you don't have a dusty/windy area since that can blow crud onto your rocket or even blow over your rocket!

Finally, practice often makes perfect, so start building a lot of rockets. :grin:

rcktnut · Dec 9, 2015

Quote Originally Posted by Micromeister
Not a good analogy! Practice makes Permanent not perfect! if you practice something incorrectly you will continue to do the same thing over and over.

neil_w said:
That pretty well describes my "practice" thus far.

You posted here to change your practice which is a good thing. IMO, I don't believe practice and permanent should even be in the same sentence, so I'll stick with practice makes perfect. Many of our practices need constant changing, some small, some large in that quest to be as perfect as possible. To practice is to change if what you did previously is less than desirable/ perfect to you. In the case of painting different manufactures, different conditions, different materials mean changing/ adjusting to that practice. IMO, if it's permanent your not practicing.

Micromeister · Dec 11, 2015

You posted here to change your practice which is a good thing. IMO, I don't believe practice and permanent should even be in the same sentence, so I'll stick with practice makes perfect. Many of our practices need constant changing, some small, some large in that quest to be as perfect as possible. To practice is to change if what you did previously is less than desirable/ perfect to you. In the case of painting different manufactures, different conditions, different materials mean changing/ adjusting to that practice. IMO, if it's permanent your not practicing.[/QUOTE]

Practice is always a good thing. Practice with different materials, manufactures, substrates and conditions is not the same as changing the procedure or method used with these changing conditions. Practice helps to reinforce the method making it permanent once correctly leaned. That said no matter what we do on this earth it will NEVER Ever be Perfect. So one should never use the phrase "Practice makes Perfect" because no matter what was Practiced it will never be perfect.

KidRockET · Dec 11, 2015

...

neil_w · Dec 11, 2015

KidRockET said:

You win this thread!

In any case, without getting bogged down in the question about whether "Practice Makes Perfect" is an appropriate aphorism, the fact remains that practicing without purpose is of little value. If you keep practicing the wrong thing, you will get very good at doing the wrong thing.

I have a much clearer idea what I'm supposed to be doing now. Unfortunately, since my painting opportunities are precious, I get few opportunities to actually just "practice", so I just try to learn from and improve with each build.

rcktnut · Dec 11, 2015

Practice helps to reinforce the method making it permanent once correctly leaned. That said no matter what we do on this earth it will NEVER Ever be Perfect. So one should never use the phrase "Practice makes Perfect" because no matter what was Practiced it will never be perfect

.

Sorry to derail your thread. I guess bowling a 300 is not perfect or shooting a hole in one on a par 3, or putting all your shots you took in a bullseye, or getting an A+ on a report card/project, or 100% on a test, or pitching a no hitter, etc. Nobodies perfect all the time, but practice sure helps some of the time. If I paint a rocket and I'm 100% happy with the outcome, I consider it perfect. It doesn't happen all the time, but then depending on how it looks it is either considered good enough, or I will do what it takes to improve the outcome to try to bring it closer to what I consider perfect.

mpitfield · Dec 14, 2015

kcobbva said:
Please do! I'm very interested to see how it works out for you and if you'd recommend it afterwards.

Received my order today

View attachment 277837

kcobbva · Dec 15, 2015

mpitfield said:
Received my order today

Wow you are going for gold! Is that for ONE rocket? I look forward to your assessment!!

mpitfield · Oct 23, 2016

kcobbva said:
Please do! I'm very interested to see how it works out for you and if you'd recommend it afterwards.

Time to resurrect this thread and follow up. I am just getting around to using the Plutonium paint and here is my experience so far.

Coverage is crazy, you could literally get away with one pass but two is better and if you're looking for more than enough three is best. Dry time to touch is fast although full cure remains to be seen. I am still waiting for mine to fully cure as I have just being using it on a project for maybe a couple of weeks and have mainly been experimenting with it. I say experimenting as my intention was just paint, however I screwed up when masking and painted the wrong base colour. As it turned out this paint is so easy to work with, and so forgiving, I was able to repair everything and save the project from a re-do. It masks wonderfully, the edges are very sharp and you can remove the mask within minuets without any concerns at all. It also blows in seamlessly if you need to do touch ups. Over-spray is a bit of a joke because this stuff almost fully dries before it hits the ground, so you just sweep up your mess instead of leaving it there, YMMV. One thing that takes a bit of getting used to is that it is not that forgiving in the spray distance, you need to be close and the humidity effects it to the point that 7" maybe good for 40% humidity but you need to move it to 4" for 55% humidity, otherwise you get a dry finish. Despite the claim of being run proof it is not, however it is very forgiving when it comes to running. Bottom line if you consistently get runs using this paint then you likely get runs using all paints, so you need to work on your technique.

It is too early for me to give it the thumbs up as durability and oxidization are important for me, and will only happen over time, but I will say this. It is super easy to work with, very forgiving and so far looks like it will have a great finish, although I still have to block sand, likely spray one more coat, wet sand up to 2000, then wax. It may be pricey up front, however depending on the project I think you are very likely to go through less cans. Whether it is less to the point of being equal in price, maybe, maybe not, but then there is the easy button factor to consider and of course the finish.

Once the project is finished I will post some pics and give my thoughts at that point as I may have more to add or my opinion may change. Also if I remember over time I will report for the record, on my observations on how it handles durability and oxidization.

BTW, I noticed that they expanded their colour selection. https://www.plutoniumpaint.com/colors/

rstaff3 · Oct 24, 2016

Good report, thanks. What primer did you shoot over?

mpitfield · Oct 24, 2016

rstaff3 said:
Good report, thanks. What primer did you shoot over?

For this project I used the duplicolor mastic filler primer, and on the plastic nosecone I also shot it with some duplicolor adhesion promoter, before priming. I like the filler primer because it is thick and deals with a lot of the small imperfections without a lot of effort. I then sand it down using a 600 wet before I lay down my first base coat.

One thing about the Plutonium paint is they claim that you do not need a primer. I have some two small builds for my kids that I will get to over the couple of months, and I plan on applying the base coat directly to the FW/FG body/nosecone and G10 fins. Time will tell how well they stand up, unless of course the paint has issues immediately.

rstaff3 · Oct 24, 2016

mpitfield said:
For this project I used the duplicolor mastic filler primer, and on the plastic nosecone I also shot it with some duplicolor adhesion promoter, before priming. I like the filler primer because it is thick and deals with a lot of the small imperfections without a lot of effort. I then sand it down using a 600 wet before I lay down my first base coat.

One thing about the Plutonium paint is they claim that you do not need a primer. I have some two small builds for my kids that I will get to over the couple of months, and I plan on applying the base coat directly to the FW/FG body/nosecone and G10 fins. Time will tell how well they stand up, unless of course the paint has issues immediately.

The question I would have is whether their statement about primer relates to adhesion, uniform coloration over different backgrounds, or both. I see it is available on Amazon and qualifies for Prime shipping.

Rattle Cans 101: What exactly constitutes a "coat"

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

OpenRocketeer

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Oddroc-eteer

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

OpenRocketeer

Micro Craftman/ClusterNut

OpenRocketeer

Micro Craftman/ClusterNut

Well-roasted Member

Well-Known Member

Micro Craftman/ClusterNut

Epstein didn't kill himself

OpenRocketeer

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Oddroc-eteer

Well-Known Member

Oddroc-eteer

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!