Staging electronics setup

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
John D., so in my mind best is to sequence first alt/battery disconnect, and then shunt when disconnecting and then perform the opposite sequence when powering. Is that right? (Note: I am speaking in general terms as this can be a manual , switched, or electronic operation to accomplish this sequence). /Tim
 
Safety is good. Having done dozens of multi-stage flights, I can offer the following advice...

First, start thinking about safety when you first start the rocket design. It is a lot easier to design in safety at the start than to try to make a design safe after it is built.

Second, it is real important to figure out how to have the sustainer motor not light until you want it to. Three tips here:

1. Use an altimeter that incorporates an altitude check and not just a timer. There are somewhere around a half-dozen altimeters that can do this. They can help keep the sustainer motor from firing on the pad. And, they can prevent the sustainer motor from firing if the flight is not nominal. Programming the altitude check is not quite as easy as some people think, though, and it is easy to get it wrong. I could provide several examples from my own experience, but my recommendations are to make sure that you understand exactly how your electronics work and to have your setup and underlying simulation reviewed by someone who has done it before.

2. Use switches to shunt and/or short your igniter leads. I always use a shunt (to short the output leads), and in many cases I also use a short (disconnecting one of the leads on the igniter-side of the shunt). It is important to recognize that a shunt still allows current to pass through the igniter if the electronics fire. The purpose of the shunt is to reduce that current to below the level that fires the igniter. The current that will pass through the igniter is a function of many things, including the relative wire lengths and gauges, the igniter characteristics, the altimeter design and the type of battery that is used. Be very careful about using a LiPo to fire the sustainer if you are using a shunt, and if you don't understand why these variables are important, then ask questions.

3. Do an all-up test of the electronics (ideally) just before setting the rocket on the pad. All of my designs are configured so that I can do an all-up test. In the all-up test, everything is assembled and everything is turned on just as it will be when you arm the rocket, except that the igniter is not inside the motor. This is pretty much your last line of defense against a malfunction. If the all-up test passes, you turn things off, insert the igniter and put the rocket on the pad. There are many design features you might implement in staging that could make the all-up test harder to perform, including many things discussed in this thread. However, if you consider those features in the initial design, you might be able to build in a way to conduct the all-up test when the time comes. My personal rule, though, is that if some aspect of a design would prevent an all-up test, I won't do it.

Finally, I would recommend keeping others away from the pad when it comes time to arm the sustainer. No one has ever actually witnessed me arming a sustainer from closer than a hundred feet or so, and for flights with larger motors, it is further than that.

Jim

Jim,

Respectfully, unless you test your shunts with your intended electronics you only have a false sense of safety. I can see your caution about using lipos but you have no guarantee the shunt is going to save/help anything.
Yes if you use a high current ignition solution then O.K. but you know what? Unless you are actually testing with your intended electronics, you just don't know if the shunt is going to live up to its purpose. I wouldn't want to
do a test because I'd be afraid that no matter what battery I'd be using, I'd fry my device. Expensive test I'd say.
I'd venture you've flown safely because you are so danged careful and good at what you do. The shunts aren't adding any extra measure if they are untested.
When you say "short" I think of a "short" circuit I picture a "shunt". I don't think of a disconnect of one leg of the igniter circuit as a "short" like you mention above. I think of a switch disconnect. Simply semantics but I see what you mean.
I think a switch disconnect makes more sense than an "untested" shunt. I will concede that if you are using a high resistance igniter other than an augmented ematch, there might be a measure of safety but.......... you'd also be likely using
a big mother pyro battery and again, unless a person is testing the failure mode to see if the desired outcome is achieved it's a false sense of security.

I think a deployment/ignition device that would allow one to start up with the ignition circuit out of the system first, with an indication the circuit is down and then allow one to restore continuity and give a positive indication would be ideal.

EggTimer rocketry now has a WiFi switch that not only can turn a circuit like a pyro battery on remotely it could also be wired to show continuity for ematches remotely too. That would be ideal to be modified for a staging circuit. One could be
a distance away before "throwing the final switch".

Kurt Savegnago
 
John D., so in my mind best is to sequence first alt/battery disconnect, and then shunt when disconnecting and then perform the opposite sequence when powering. Is that right? (Note: I am speaking in general terms as this can be a manual , switched, or electronic operation to accomplish this sequence). /Tim

Tim, I haven't really thought about it because I haven't done shunts. Thinking off the top of my head now I would shunt the ematch before assembling it into the motor to for EMC protection. I think the FredA system is a switch disconnect and shunt right in the ematch circuit itself using a 4P switch to open the shunt and connect match to altimeter output in one throw. Then a separate switch for altimeter power. But FredA can describe better.

So if I were using one flight computer for deployment duty and motor starts I would power the altimeter first so the recovery system is live. Then de-shunt and connect ematches. I would have to think more if there is a preferred order.
 
Jim,

Respectfully, unless you test your shunts with your intended electronics you only have a false sense of safety.

It is entirely possible to test the shunt design and to calculate most of variables involved. I have done quite a bit of shunt testing with various configurations and altimeters. I know from that that you might not be getting the protection you want if you don't design it correctly. Hence, my cautions that there is more to it than most folks realize. But if designed correctly, it will do exactly what you want.

Another variable to know about is that the latch time for some altimeters can be varied. A good feature for use with shunts.

Jim
 
I agree, shunts alone are not 100% safe as current can still flow.

JohnD has it correct - I use a pair of 4PDT switches. One controls power and the other "safes" the four pyro's.
Each DT contact set disconnects one leg of one of the altimeter-pyro circuit and shorts across the pyro.

If the pyro is for HEI I will usually twist the wire between the switch and the pyro.
 
I agree, shunts alone are not 100% safe as current can still flow.

JohnD has it correct - I use a pair of 4PDT switches. One controls power and the other "safes" the four pyro's.
Each DT contact set disconnects one leg of one of the altimeter-pyro circuit and shorts across the pyro.

If the pyro is for HEI I will usually twist the wire between the switch and the pyro.

Fred A, can tell me what kind of 4PDT switches you are using? I was going to go with a DPDT switch to safe just the airstart pryo but it makes sense to safe everything. This is a 2.1 in. rocket so the switches need to be compact. I am using a Raven 3 for DD & airstart. The MARSA 54L will not comfortably fit inside the av bay. Was going to use it with a power perch which uses a magnetic switch for power. Would the magnetic switch need to be abandoned to shunt & disconnect the Raven's pyro channels with a switch?
 
I use Switchcraft 50200 series slide switches.
The 502-50212Lx from Mouser is an example.

These MUST be augmented with a little dab of epoxy where the metal tabs crimp over the phenolic circuit board.
Once you do this, they are fine for HP flights ... have 100's of flights with these from myself and my team (we all use them)....flights up to 47G's off the pad.

I use two per rocket.
One using all four poles, one per pyro, to shunt and disconnect each pyro.
The second is for power -- here I will use the same switch for convenience since we buy them in bulk -- and use multiple contacts for switching power.
For a typical rocket with one four-channel altimeter, then all four sets of contacts are [redundantly] switching power for that altimeter.
 
Back
Top