Vacuum Bagging Setup

Alrighty, I wanna get into vacuum bagging. I've looked at options like the FoodSaver system, but not completely sold on that (Would it work for T2T layups?).

Hoping to stay under $150 if that's possible.

I'm mostly going to be doing 3" or smaller tubes, and T2T layups for the same.


What have you used that has worked for you?

I will be watching this thread, as its something I want to get more into.

blackbrandt said:

Alrighty, I wanna get into vacuum bagging. I've looked at options like the FoodSaver system, but not completely sold on that (Would it work for T2T layups?).

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The FoodSaver works best for flat layups, and you're limited to 11.5" width (11" is more practical) inside the bags. Tip-to-tip vacuum bagging requires a very large bag (to go around the fin can and the fixture that holds the fins at the right angle).

here are a couple of links about vacuum bagging

https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm
https://www.veneersupplies.com

JohnCoker's website has great information. https://www.jcrocket.com/kitchenbagging.shtml

Are you trying to stay under $150 for the vacuum or the vacuum and all the parts required to get you started?

https://www.acpsales.com/EZ-Vac-System.html is a starter set that might be of interest. They have "how to" guides as well...

I should probably clarify this,,, but I have a heavy duty air compressor. If that makes any difference.

blackbrandt said:

I have a heavy duty air compressor. If that makes any difference.

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That gives you the option of using a venturi-based system. (I use a veneer press for my larger bagging that uses a venturi driven by my compressor.)

blackbrandt said:

I should probably clarify this,,, but I have a heavy duty air compressor. If that makes any difference.

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Pay me $65.00 plus shipping and I will send you this vacuum generator, but I would not recommend it.

I originally thought I could get away with this technology, however it has many shortcomings. Mainly that it requires a constant vacuum and that is not ideal. To get a perfect seal is not realistic so there is typically some bleeding and using this technology results in your generator continuously cycling on and off. Depending on your compressor you could easily burn it out or at the very least put a lot of wear on it and drive your parents and or neighbours nuts listening to it continuously running.

I ended up building 2 of John Coker's fin jigs, both in a three and four fin configuration, as well as the Joe Woodworker "Project EVS" vacuum, and I have not looked back. Problem is it will kill your budget.

I've actually tried with limited success to use vacuum bagging film to make larger bags for use with the foodsaver. It actually came out pretty well.

That being said I haven't actually laid anything up in that setup, just tested the bag alone with a piece of airframe in it


Braden

I will try to make this as simple as possible. A food saver will work in some cases but most bagging set ups will leak a little and it will be difficult to maintain constant vacuum. On large jobs like an aircraft wing a large vacuum pump will be needed but you also need some control. An adjustable vacuum switch will let you control the amount of vacuum by turning the pump on and off. As your vacuum pressure leaks down the regulator will tun the pump back on to maintain pressure.
This is the pump I have used for years for most of my rocket parts. https://www.acpsales.com/Auto-Vac-System.html It can take hours for some jobs to cure and this equipment is fairly automatic.
For larger jobs I use an A/C type pump and add a Switch, vacuum gauge and accumulator tank. None of these set ups are cheap.
If I wanted a low cost option I would gut a food saver unit for the pump and add a regulator switch but you may start to approach the cost of the ACP unit. Maybe someone on the forum has already sourced out these components.


But the pump is only a small part of the puzzle. You will also need to learn how to layer your bag and other materials. At some point I will try to put together a thread on "How to".

https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Pressure-Controller-18-NPT.html
Here you go. This looks like the small switch that ACP uses. Wire this to the pump you gutted from a Food Saver and add a tank and gauge and you have your $150 system.
Hmmm, maybe I'll build one.

n27sb said:

https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Pressure-Controller-18-NPT.html
Here you go. This looks like the small switch that ACP uses. Wire this to the pump you gutted from a Food Saver and add a tank and gauge and you have your $150 system.
Hmmm, maybe I'll build one.

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Here is a well thought out system already designed for you, this is what I built. https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm As can be seen in the "Press Gallery" the designer encourages people to play with the design and he is very accessible to run ideas by. You may want to email him for ideas based on your budget, he is a great resource. https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/visitorspress.htm

Here is a link to a venturi system


https://www.veneersupplies.com/video/projectv2-large.wmv

I'm curious about all of this too. I have access to great vacuum pumps in my lab that can pull <1 Torr and can run for days at a time. How much vacuum is required? Would a water aspirator (~20 Torr) be an option? I can't imagine that a kitchen vacuum bagger pulls more vacuum that that. If so, this could be a nice, cheap option: https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/nalgene-aspirator-vacuum-pump-1/s41381.

BDB said:

I'm curious about all of this too. I have access to great vacuum pumps in my lab that can pull <1 Torr and can run for days at a time. How much vacuum is required? Would a water aspirator (~20 Torr) be an option? I can't imagine that a kitchen vacuum bagger pulls more vacuum that that. If so, this could be a nice, cheap option: https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/nalgene-aspirator-vacuum-pump-1/s41381.

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I run at 125 mbar using a Buchi rotovap diaphragm pump with controller, and barely has to work to maintain that. I could get the bag down well below 25 mbar, but I'm getting good results. I read somewhere that you don't need to go nuts with vacuum to get good results. Makes sense as if you think about it, going from 125 mbar to 1 mbar is only another 2.4 psi of pressure, and you already have over 12.

Thank you for this thread Matt..
And thank you all for the info...
The build I'm currently jiving out will absolutely require
tip to tip and being vacuum bagged....
I am also just in the beginning of the learning curve with this....

Pit,,,
You're getting an email,,, lol....

Teddy

mpitfield said:

Here is a well thought out system already designed for you, this is what I built. https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm As can be seen in the "Press Gallery" the designer encourages people to play with the design and he is very accessible to run ideas by. You may want to email him for ideas based on your budget, he is a great resource. https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/visitorspress.htm

Click to expand...

This is a very well thought out system and is a good model to use as an example. It would be overkill for most jobs and cost well over $500 to build. One of the factors to consider is the initial pull down. By increasing the volume of your accumulator tank you can create a large reserve that will pull down your bag and help you find any leaks. For example for large wings we used a 20 ft piece of 6" pipe.

Am I just lucky, or what?

I picked up a vacuum pump at a flea market for $20. It's an old one that only pulls about 20 inches, but that's more than enuf to bag a lay-up.

I did just go through the very same exercise, trying to determine which set up was going to be right for me. Here is what I did...
- Needed a system that I could run indoors since I will be doing most of my vacuum in the winter and without a winterized garage in Minnesota you would not get far doing any kind of epoxy work out there.
- I needed a quiet system that was oil free since I was going to do this in my house.
- I wanted to get a bag pressure over 20 inches of mercury.
- and I wanted to spend as little $$ as possible

Here is what I did:
I got a Gast membrane vacuum pump DOA-191-AA 115v 4.2amps
This pump is quiet, no exhaust and I get it to pull 25 inches of mercury. I bought it of eBay for $60 and it runs great. However it was the third Gast pump I bought of eBay, the first two where not pulling near to what I needed them to, the membrane rubber where all dried out.
With this pump I then built a continuous run system with parts from https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Project-CRS-Continuous-Run-Pump-Vacuum-Press-Kit.html

This was the cheapest system I could put together that I could run indoors. I have done 2 lay ups to date and I love this thing, especially the bleed function. With that adjustable valve I can start with gentle vacuum getting the bag to position right and then turn up the vacuum.

Hope this helps

onebadhawk said:

Pit,,,
You're getting an email,,, lol....

Teddy

Click to expand...

No problem Teddy,

Here is a pic of a 3 fin layup using 3K 2x2 Twill CF.



Here is a pic of my vacuum. I built it stock based on the Joe Woodworker plans.

n27sb said:

This is a very well thought out system and is a good model to use as an example. It would be overkill for most jobs and cost well over $500 to build. One of the factors to consider is the initial pull down. By increasing the volume of your accumulator tank you can create a large reserve that will pull down your bag and help you find any leaks. For example for large wings we used a 20 ft piece of 6" pipe.

Click to expand...

You're pretty much bang on what it cost me, however I am not known to be a thrifty deal finder. I would guess that if you were patient and resourceful you could knock $150 of that fairly easily and possibly double that. As an example the biggest single item cost for me was the pump and cherokeej just picked one up for $20.00

JohnCoker said:

The FoodSaver works best for flat layups, and you're limited to 11.5" width (11" is more practical) inside the bags. Tip-to-tip vacuum bagging requires a very large bag (to go around the fin can and the fixture that holds the fins at the right angle).

Click to expand...

I have a KestreL to do a tip to tip on..

Was going to jump in on some 1.5k CF , and grab some realease and breather fabric - but save the bag film, sealer and valve for a future order and use the foodsealer on the KestreL. .

If someone has tried this size rocket this way, would appreciate hearing your thoughts

Have a 4 inch FG rocket to do a tip to tip on also..but want to layup the smaller project first

Kenny

This thread is somewhat timely for me too. I just grabbed a Gast vacuum pump for free. Older, but substantial. I need to figure out what I need to do this and there appears to be a wealth of info in this thread.

Pics of pump

Keeping with Matts theme of keeping things on a light budget, is there an any other methods of doing T2T without vacuum bagging?

bill2654 said:

Keeping with Matts theme of keeping things on a light budget, is there an any other methods of doing T2T without vacuum bagging?

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I have used sand bags before.

bill2654 said:

Keeping with Matts theme of keeping things on a light budget, is there an any other methods of doing T2T without vacuum bagging?

Click to expand...

Might be able to use ziploc bags filled with water as a self conforming weight, never tried it myself.

markkoelsch said:

This thread is somewhat timely for me too. I just grabbed a Gast vacuum pump for free. Older, but substantial. I need to figure out what I need to do this and there appears to be a wealth of info in this thread.

Pics of pump

View attachment 276629
View attachment 276630

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Looks like possibly an oldie but a goodie. I can find information on the BB model and the BA model but not the AB model, I can also find exhaust filters for it so it appears to be an oil pump. If you don't know the specs you may want to start by contacting manufacturer.

Good find!

Perfect timing for this thread. I am about to do tip to tip CF on my KestreL as well. I would prefer to do it with vacuum bagging.
Thank you blackbrandt for asking the question. It's helped a lot of good info get gathered together in one place quickly.
I gathered a ton of information on composites at one time but have lost most of it.

Thank you everyone!

mpitfield said:

Looks like possibly an oldie but a goodie. I can find information on the BB model and the BA model but not the AB model, I can also find exhaust filters for it so it appears to be an oil pump. If you don't know the specs you may want to start by contacting manufacturer.

Good find!

Click to expand...

Gast was my first stop. They sent me the specs.

markkoelsch said:

Gast was my first stop. They sent me the specs.

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Sounds like you're well on your way then.

I struggled finding the correct plumbing fixtures to hook my pump up to the rest of the hardware and finally purchased some copper pipe and an inexpensive pipe bender and flaring tool. My issue was the limited clearance I had so it had to be a "tighter than they sell" radius, but it worked like a charm.

@bill2654

This video shows T2T with no vacuum or weighted bags. The final product looks pretty good to me.

[video=youtube;PtYYsX3VEmc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtYYsX3VEmc[/video]