What's the point of kits?

Please don't get offended this It's not what my intention is. What the point of buying a rocket kit? Is it to learn how to build a rocket, or for the enjoyment of making your own paint scheme? They seem like they would be to easy and not require much thought. Again I know how sensitive people are but I'm not trying to be rude I'm honestly curious about people reasons. Thanks.

For me, they are starting points. A lot of the time the kit is cheaper than the sum of the parts.

Then they get 'modified'.

I like kits because I don't have the tools or work space to roll my own.

I like them because of two things: 1) you always have mods/upgrades to improve the end product, 2) you can compare finished product with other rocketeers kinda like a car show.

They are a good starting point. It should fly correctly. Some kits are really easy - 3 fins and a nose cone - some get fairly complicated with a lot of custom parts.

It is easier to buy a kit than source all the parts and I think that some people like the structure of building a kit.

I have not built a kit in several years but I have designed and sold kits.

Many people don't have the specialty tools needed to build there own kit parts especially fiberglass ones, light tools are extremely limited in their capabilities unless you have lots of time, kits save time and as others have said you can kit bash into other designs.

I try to avoid your basic 3FNC.
So a kit like the Fliskits Tesla, Estes Asteroid Hunter, Rocketarium Rebel John present a challenge to develop/build lacking a full shop (which I don't have)

Plus, many kit designers have great imaginations!

I agree with Salvage-1. Often it is cheaper to buy the kit than to buy the parts...then it is time to modify it to make it as close to scale as possible.

Cheers,
Michael

I think it's a personal preference based on many factors including, pricing, convenience, ability, resources, even where you are in your rocketry journey, etc.

Personally the more I go down the high power road, the more tools, and techniques I acquire, and currently I find myself almost in the middle of a kit and modify build or design my own and buy the components build.

Collecting. Buy a bunch of popular kits, put em in a box in the closet for 20 years. Then pull them out and ebay them.
I collect, I don't sell. I'll leave that up to my son's when I"m gone. Keep, build, sell, it will be their choice.
Kit's also often offer parts like special nose cones that only have a limited run. Can't be purchased by itself.
Like the SR-71 Blackbird nose cone. Mercury Redstone is another. Estes BLU-97B Cluster Bomb.
If parts are available, I clone, upscale the kit I like. Make several different sizes, etc.
I also take kits and change them some, dump huge motor mounts in them. Like putting a Big Block 427 in a slant six 69 Nova.
It's just play time for grown ups that refuse to grow up?

mbecks said:

What's the point of kits?

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The nose cone.

Samuron said:

The nose cone.

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lol

mbecks said:

Please don't get offended this It's not what my intention is. What the point of buying a rocket kit? Is it to learn how to build a rocket, or for the enjoyment of making your own paint scheme? They seem like they would be to easy and not require much thought. Again I know how sensitive people are but I'm not trying to be rude I'm honestly curious about people reasons. Thanks.

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I liked building model kits and now I like building rocket kits. Why do people build model kits? As a side note I thought it was a dying hobby, but went to Hobby Lobby today and there were 4 people all looking at the models.

Also note that many here enjoy launching the rockets as much/more than building them (note there are a lot of RTF kits out).

So my question back to you is what are you building and why not build rocket kits?

BTW - At Hobby Lobby today I picked up some large sheets of heavy paper on clearance which I plan to use to roll my own tubes to build a rocket with the goal of it being 100% scratch; however I'm aware some people think that rolling your own tubes is nutty extra work...I used to. :grin:

A kit or growing the pulp-wood (paper) and balsa tree. Isn't it a matter of degrees?

A picture (or several) is worth a 1000 words...

mbecks said:

What the point of buying a rocket kit? Is it to learn how to build a rocket, or for the enjoyment of making your own paint scheme?

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Yes and Yes :grin:

mbecks said:

They seem like they would be to easy and not require much thought.

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Not quite the case in every case. I dare you to try building this one if you can find it (Estes Outlander)...however make sure you use a 24mm engine mount since the 18mm isn't capable of launching this one safely. For me, I'd say it's harder than building from scratch and more frustrating:

Several different reasons for kits. One big reason: some people lack the equipment to much fabrication beyond the kit. This is especially true in the high power ranks, where more equipment is required if you intend to get fancy with some of the exotic materials. Another reason is time. I will buy a kit because I can open a box and get to building, rather than spending an evening or two in the shop cutting and sanding parts. A third reason is design: sometimes I just like the look of a kit, or the motor arrangement, and I want to try it out.

Sometimes I have the urge to build a kit from scratch, and sometimes I just want to open a box and build. Each one has its place.

Who says roll your own ain't cool? This was an awesome performer, 3", 4x24mm, all beer carton, except for the basswood fin liners.

KenECoyote said:

A picture (or several) is worth a 1000 words...



Yes and Yes :grin:

Not quite the case in every case. I dare you to try building this one if you can find it (Estes Outlander)...however make sure you use a 24mm engine mount since the 18mm isn't capable of launching this one safely. For me, I'd say it's harder than building from scratch and more frustrating:

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I never got the decals to stick on that one (outlander) and ended up never getting launched.

The last two flights on this video were flown on the bird above: [video=youtube;McxdLMGO-SY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McxdLMGO-SY[/video]

jeff_j_black said:

View attachment 276505Who says roll your own ain't cool? This was an awesome performer, 3", 4x24mm, all beer carton, except for the basswood fin liners.

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I didn't say it ain't cool...I said "I'm aware some people think that rolling your own tubes is nutty extra work...I used to. "

Cool rocket! Cluster too...nice job!

kcobbva said:

I never got the decals to stick on that one (outlander) and ended up never getting launched.

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How was building it? I found the sequence of assembling in parts while also painting some parts before assembling maddening. Took a LOT of pre-planning to get it looking decent.

KenECoyote said:

How was building it? I found the sequence of assembling in parts while also painting some parts before assembling maddening. Took a LOT of pre-planning to get it looking decent.

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It's been many years, but I do recall having a heck of a time building that one. Trying to get the legs and strings right and again getting the darned decals to stick. All four pods have lifted, but for some reason NONE have fallen off. Wish I had known about the undersized engine when I built it way back then. I've looked at it a few times when I'm in the back area of my basement, but still haven't taken it out.

I'm enlightened, thanks.

kcobbva said:

It's been many years, but I do recall having a heck of a time building that one. Trying to get the legs and strings right and again getting the darned decals to stick. All four pods have lifted, but for some reason NONE have fallen off. Wish I had known about the undersized engine when I built it way back then. I've looked at it a few times when I'm in the back area of my basement, but still haven't taken it out.

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Great job! With the 18mm mount in place, you can use a AT 18mm RMS and use D reloads in it (if you don't want to invest in the set, ask around your club and someone may have and likely won't mind lending to see this fly). The Outlander kit was deemed too dangerously underpowered on anything but a "D" and I would think any RSO who has seen/heard about these would know. Another issue I had was that I don't recall anyone mentioning changing the launch lugs to larger. I used the standard one and when I put it on the LP rail at my local club, the sucker was so heavy that it was bending the rod over. At my private launches, I used to just keep the rod straight up, which wasn't an issue, but if the rod is angled (like at my club), the Outlander leans wayyyy over. LOL.

Sorry to go off-track, but this is quite a gathering of Outlanders! :wink:

I like many of them because they just look cool, something that I want to build. Other times they are sources of parts to build something that looks cool. On a few occasions I buy them out of loyalty to a vendor for their assistance on something I was working on (usually based on their design)).

I think that a lot of people like kits as they allow someone to experience the fun of building their own rocket without the fears that come from a lack of knowledge/skill needed to make something on their own from scratch that looks good, and is safe to fly. I guess you could say kits are the gateway drug into the hobby.

timbucktoo said:

I like kits because I don't have the tools or work space to roll my own.

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rharshberger said:

Many people don't have the specialty tools needed to build there own kit parts especially fiberglass ones, light tools are extremely limited in their capabilities unless you have lots of time, kits save time and as others have said you can kit bash into other designs.

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With all due respect, you don't need a lot of specialty tools to fabricate from scratch. No question they can make life easier, but you can do it with a handsaw, a couple of files and a drill - all stuff I'd think a rocketeer would have anyway, and at the absolute most it's the cost of a couple of G through I motors (unless you choose to spend more). When I make a tube I use paint brushes that you can get from any hardware store, and the 1" tubing I use for a stand I also use for prepping rockets in the field - in total I think it cost me $10 (if that). The allthread that runs through the mandrel was the cheapest thing at Home Depot longer than 48". The workbench I have is Stanley plastic collapsable workbench, and what is special about it was that it has clamps and was cheap. Rumour has it that Jim Jarvis rolled his 4CarbYen tubes in his laundry room. Specialty tools and lots of space definitely make things easier, no question, but you don't NEED them if you want to scratch build.



Having said the above, I'm just going to throw it out there that you will not save money fully scratch building. Yes, you can make rockets out of Pringles cans (etc) but if you love rocketry as a hobby I'd bet you'll run through those options fairly quickly. If you're interested in efficiency (height/speed for a given weight or given motor) I know you'll run through your options quickly. I've sourced the fiberglass cloth, laminating epoxy, peel ply and shrink wrap (etc), done it on the cheap (without an oven/vac bag, etc) and the all in cost for a scratch built fiberglass tube is still more than the retail cost. Carbon tubes are a bit cheaper to a lot cheaper depending on the what and the how, assuming your build abilities result in a comparable tube. (IMHO saving money by making an inferior product is short term thinking.)

Why do a kit? They're cheaper than a full scratch build, especially when kits are on sale, and it takes a lot less time for a build. If you like to build but you don't want to worry about design (and worry about CP/CG and do the rocket science bit) they're a great way to fly some birds and enjoy the hobby. They're also a great way to source parts if you do want to scratch build but don't want to fully fabricate from scratch.

Why scratch build if it's cheaper to buy the stuff in a kit? Speaking personally, I have longer term aspirations of an L3, full scratch, full carbon stratospheric bird. Yes, I could buy the stuff, but I see value in being able to look at it break 50,000 feet and say 'I designed and built that from absolute scratch." I'm practicing on FG because it's cheaper and all the lessons learned will apply to carbon, and what I'm learning will allow me to build the custom parts I might need. And yes, I fabricated all the external and internal components for both my L1 and my L2 birds (save for propellant and electronics), and I'm proud of that. Last, I like the design aspect of this hobby - CP, CG, stability, fin design, heat tolerances, the whole lot of it - and you don't get that with a kit.

Samuron said:

The nose cone.

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This. If I had a lathe I wouldn't make that statement, but... I don't have a lathe... See point above about being able to do it without specialty tools - you can do it, it just takes a bunch more time and effort to get it right.

For LPR, scratch. Much cheaper and you can come up with some unique designs.

Scratch:



For HPR, I'd love to build scratch more, but it's just not nearly as cost effective. Unless it's min diameter of course, then your doing it completely wrong if you get a kit.

Kit:



Scratch:

Samuron said:

The nose cone.

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People laugh, but that is often the reason I buy kits - I buy a lot of kits to part out either for clones of older rockets or to kitbash into something else. Tubes, balsa and other parts are easy to come by or scratch make, but plastic nose cones are much harder. Sometimes I'll even buy two kits and mix/match the parts to make something totally unique (like the tube fin rocket I built from the red BT-60 of an Estes Big Shot and the yellow BT-50 from an Estes Skywriter. I also put a three motor cluster in that one to make it even more interesting!

I also buy some kits as quick contest models - like using a Wizard as a qualifier model for an altitude event - not really competitive, buy good enough to qualify and get points - and sometimes the "hot" models get lost or fail for some reason and a qualifier sneaks in for the kill! So there can be MANY reasons for using kits over totally "rolling your own"!

I can imagine the headaches and chaos at launches if only custom/scratch made rockets were allowed. Not that this is a problem now, but I mean no kits available/allowed at all for the hobby.

Before any scratch builders start protesting my statement, I'll note I like custom/scratch too (I've got a dedicated book of rocket ideas), but I've had my scratch Beaker rocket do a power loop at my club earlier this year when I forgot I never tested it on a C motor...had done fine a couple of times on an A and B, but the incident was embarrassing. I would also say it's my opinion that I've seen more scratch builds with flight issues than kits (one beautiful winged wonder did a power loop into the ground right off the rail at my club a few months ago).



In addition, I'd say that kits are a reason this hobby is as popular as it is. I purchased a E2X Estes kit on a whim (loosely using the reasoning of entertaining my young child), but it's progressed far beyond that. Kits allow someone just browsing the hobby aisles to be bitten with the rocket bug and then slowly progress along at the skill level they're comfortable with and capable of. :grin:

Now I want to go out and buy a cool kit. My hobby mostly carries basic kits so I didn't realize there were unique elaborate kits out there. I'm going to have to do some online shopping.

mbecks said:

I'm going to have to do some online shopping.

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Ha! The perfect season for it!