Rocket motor legality

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mbecks

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This is only for my education and I have no intent in building a model rocket motor. I understand most of the chemicals needed to build a homemade black powder rocket are very hard to come by in Canada. My question is what is the legality of trying to build your own rocket motor? If your going to answer please provide a source. Thanks for the info.
 
Please visit the tirpoli website. They give explicit rules for experimental rocketry and motor making. You need to be a member in good standing who's level 2.

Black powder is NOT allowed. googe "estes rocket motor plant explosion for more convincing data why not.

Some people make AN-sugar motors, but they lack in specific impulse. They tend to have fewer chemicals but because the sugar must be cooked, are more dangerous to make. (closer to explosive point). In the US they are on the combined explosive lists so you need a magazine and permit to store as well are not allowed interstate transport (google BATF)
Most make APCP motors. The chemistry is more difficult and there are sometimes more chemicals that are hard to get. They have a higher specific impulse and are also specifically exempt from the explosive lists (google BATF and Judge Walton)
We have a forum for EX rocketry. If you qualify to be a member then there's very specific discussions on both. For the purposes of the rest of the forum, we don't give more details, it's not allowed.

My sources are a bit of work for you - but you should have no problems given the parameters i've given.
Depending on where you are there may be someone who mixes motors near you and wouldn't mind a observer/helper for their next mixing session.
 
To answer simply making motors in Canada is illegal unless you have approval from the ERD. If this is something you want to explore I would suggest joining CAR, a local club and seeking out information from those in Canada that have gone through the process of getting approval.
 
To access the EX or "Restricted Research" forum you have to qualify as follows 1) NAR or TRA senior member 2) US Citizen 3) High Power Certification (Level 1, 2 or 3). So if you're in Canada then no access. If you are interested in getting into HPR or just want to know a bit more then I would not start with a specific organization like CAR, Tripoli or NAR. Instead I would look for local clubs as the organization you certify with will be limited to your local club, at least in most cases. Assuming that you are a fellow Canadian, then there is a Canadian Rocketry forum which is another place where you could start.

Good luck.
 
You all seemed to miss my question. I was looking for legality in terms of federal and provincial law not rules made by a club or non governing organization.

I have no interest in making my own rocket motors and am not seeking access to a restricted area on this forum I'm just interested in the actual laws. I cannot find anything using Google that states a law pertaining to making rocket motors only laws pertaining to firing high powered rockets.
 
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You seemed to all miss my question. I was looking for legality in terms of federal and provincial law not rules made by a club or non governing organization.

I have no interest in making my own rocket motors and am not seeking access to a restricted area on this forum I'm just interested in the actual laws. I cannot find anything using Google that states a law pertaining to making rocket motors only laws pertaining to firing high powered rockets.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/manufacturing/9915

Try this. Straight off the government website. Rocket motors falls under division 2.
 
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You all seemed to miss my question. I was looking for legality in terms of federal and provincial law not rules made by a club or non governing organization.

I have no interest in making my own rocket motors and am not seeking access to a restricted area on this forum I'm just interested in the actual laws. I cannot find anything using Google that states a law pertaining to making rocket motors only laws pertaining to firing high powered rockets.

nope didn't miss your question at all. There are some members in some of the Canadian clubs that could short track your quest.
 
That's interesting that it also falls under the law of manufacturing Small arms cartridges. Does anyone know if manufacturing small arms cartridges is the same as reloading small arms cartridges. If so then it sounds like the only licensing you need is your PAL to make your own rocket motors, but probably means very different things.

EDIT: The form needed to build your own rocket motors is different than a PAL, I found the form and am now curious what the government requires of you to give you the license. Does anyone have information to shed light on this (with sources preferred)

Here is the sheet you need to send in. Google search "Division 2 Factory Licence or Manufacturing Certificate Application" the top link will be a pdf file with the license. I'm thinking of sending a form in just to see what the rejection reasons are.
 
That's interesting that it also falls under the law of manufacturing Small arms cartridges. Does anyone know if manufacturing small arms cartridges is the same as reloading small arms cartridges. If so then it sounds like the only licensing you need is your PAL to make your own rocket motors, but probably means very different things.

EDIT: The form needed to build your own rocket motors is different than a PAL, I found the form and am now curious what the government requires of you to give you the license. Does anyone have information to shed light on this (with sources preferred)

Here is the sheet you need to send in. Google search "Division 2 Factory Licence or Manufacturing Certificate Application" the top link will be a pdf file with the license. I'm thinking of sending a form in just to see what the rejection reasons are.

In practice it's very different than reloading cartridges. There is a guy in NB who has ERD approval to make EX motors, and it required a shed well away from his house. It could not occur in a subdivision, but also needed reasonable access by a fire department.

MPitfield is right - your local club is most likely your best first step. Others may be able to show you the way. Also, your curiosity isn't about making fluffy stuffed bunnies - you're talking about the application for making stuff that could be lethal to you and those around you, so some may be wary of helping some random bloke who's posting on the internet.
 
In practice it's very different than reloading cartridges. There is a guy in NB who has ERD approval to make EX motors, and it required a shed well away from his house. It could not occur in a subdivision, but also needed reasonable access by a fire department.

MPitfield is right - your local club is most likely your best first step. Others may be able to show you the way. Also, your curiosity isn't about making fluffy stuffed bunnies - you're talking about the application for making stuff that could be lethal to you and those around you, so some may be wary of helping some random bloke who's posting on the internet.

I'm getting so frustrated. I have not once asked for the chemicals needed to make a rocket motor, supplies I should be getting or any techniques. I have only asked for information that is already available by our government to the public. I've said this already several times I'm not interested in making a rocket motor. No one here is helping me do anything dangerous by helping me find Canadian laws about making rocket motors. I'm not going to join a club to find information about the legality of rocket motors seeing as its all available to me on the internet I just needed help location it and still have more question about it.

So I'm not just "a random bloke", My name is Michael Becker and I live in Saskatoon SK. I am a Infantry veteran who served in Afghanistan with 2ppcli. I know all about risk assessment and safety precautions. I have worked with more dangerous things than most people on this forum. I am now a heavy duty mechanic. My wife is in the school of education and we both believe education is very important, hence why I am trying educating myself about an interest. None of this should matter though because I'm not asking for anything illegal, dangerous, or secure.
 
I don't understand the frustration, people are just trying to help. Somebody local to you is most likely to know all of the regulations that affect your region. Asking random blokes on the internet about it isn't likely to be nearly as accurate as talking to a local expert. Trusting any answer you get on the internet is always mistake #1. :)
 
mbecks

Its up to you to research the link given above for the specific answers you want. This link https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2013-211/page-6.html#h-7 for example provides this:

Exemption from authorization

25. Despite section 11, the following Footnote *activities involving an explosive may be carried out even though the Footnote *explosives are not authorized:

(a) the manufacture of up to 1 kg of explosives to be used in conducting an experiment, demonstration, test or analysis at a school, college, university or other learning institution;

(b) the manufacture of up to 5 kg of explosives to be used in conducting an experiment, demonstration, test or analysis by a government or law enforcement agency;

(c) the manufacture of up to 5 kg of explosives to be used in conducting an experiment, test or analysis at a private or commercial laboratory;

(d) the manufacture of black powder charges for ceremonial use;

(e) the manufacture of Footnote *small arms cartridges or black powder cartouches for personal use;

(f) the assembly and use of special purpose pyrotechnics, as defined in section 361;

(g) the sending of a sample of an explosive to the Chief Inspector of Explosives, at his or her request, for authorization testing;

(h) the importation of an explosive, if the conditions set out in section 45 are met;

(i) the exportation of an explosive, if the conditions set out in section 45 are met; and

(j) the transportation in transit of an explosive.

Return to footnote *Terms preceded by an asterisk are defined in section 6.


Richard
 
I don't understand the frustration, people are just trying to help. Somebody local to you is most likely to know all of the regulations that affect your region. Asking random blokes on the internet about it isn't likely to be nearly as accurate as talking to a local expert. Trusting any answer you get on the internet is always mistake #1. :)

The reason for the frustration is because I don't feel like people were trying to help. I asked a very strait forward question about Laws. The answers I got were about (paraphrasing) why I shouldn't build rocket motors and how its dangerous. Do you see how the answer given are no where near the question? that's not to say a few people haven't given me very good information.
I don't trust peoples responses on the internet that's why, if you notice, I asked for sources as well. If people can't back up what the say with reliable sources I discount there comments.

The Tellurian, thank you for the link that is very helpful information.
 
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From what I understand, you need a FAC (Firearms Acquisition Certificate) to buy a can of gunpowder here in Canada. (you even need it to buy #6 buckshot, which I need for this & my other hobby: R/C planes; noseweight) Does that help?

And remember this:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-w...ion-levels-quebec-fireworks-factory-1.1333943

And to further this: There was a poster on this forum several years ago asking about "sugar motors" and some general flight dynamic questions. He posted a few photos of what he was making. Low & behold, a few months later those same photos were apparent evidence of a "home made rocket" attack in Israel..
 
The reason for the frustration is because I don't feel like people were trying to help. I asked a very strait forward question about Laws. The answers I got were about (paraphrasing) why I shouldn't build rocket motors and how its dangerous. Do you see how the answer given are no where near the question?

That may be, but I also think it's unreasonable to expect that everybody knows the exact laws, especially on a forum that I believe is predominantly US citizens when asking about Canada. I know it's illegal to run a red light, but I couldn't off-hand quote the section of the California Vehicle Code that says that. I haven't bothered but I'm not sure I'd even know the best way to search to find it. If I wanted to know, I'd talk to a local lawyer or police officer who is more likely to know what it is or how to find it. But that's just me I guess. Anyway, hopefully you got the information you're looking for even if the signal-to-noise ratio wasn't what you hoped for.
 
That may be, but I also think it's unreasonable to expect that everybody knows the exact laws, especially on a forum that I believe is predominantly US citizens when asking about Canada. I know it's illegal to run a red light, but I couldn't off-hand quote the section of the California Vehicle Code that says that. I haven't bothered but I'm not sure I'd even know the best way to search to find it. If I wanted to know, I'd talk to a local lawyer or police officer who is more likely to know what it is or how to find it. But that's just me I guess. Anyway, hopefully you got the information you're looking for even if the signal-to-noise ratio wasn't what you hoped for.

I did not expect everyone to know the exact laws, just hoped that someone would be able to lead me in the right direction. I asked in the Canadian part of the forums to hopefully prevent American viewers from having to read about something that has no concern to them. Like you said it can be hard to find the actual law which is why I asked in hopes someone could help lead me in the proper direction. I contacted both CAR (Canadian association of rocketry) and SCAR (Saskatoon branch) by email and got no response from either. I also contacted my local police station and all they could lead me to was the laws on firing high powered rockets. This forum wasn't my first choice for information but where I had to come and I did get the info I was looking for.
 
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The SNAFU comes when you want to fly it, then its under the jurisdiction of Transport Canada which I believe says only ERD approved motors can be flown in Canada and that approval costs $$$$.00 :kill:

Then again they say its illegal to jay walk. :rolleyes:


Richard
 
Oddly, an FAC is not needed to legally buy black powder in Canada. You do need it to buy hand-loading specific supplies though. I guess it's because BP is used for other, non-gun related purposes (air bags in cars for example).

Yes, we have a chap here in NB that is legally making sugar motors. He's jumped through all the hoops ERD has required of him. However, and this is important, he still does not have permission to fly them legally. That is still a work in progress.

My suggestion is that you join the Canadian Rocketry Yahoo! Group, and ask for some info. Introduce yourself and provide some of your background. He may choose to respond to you and explain the process. Due to the nature of the topic, I'm not willing to volunteer his contact info on an open forum.
 
Did you get the full answer you were looking for?

The other thing I noticed was that the discussion only involved solid propellant. Have you considered making your own hybrid rocket engine? Given your current line of work it might be within your expertise. That falls outside of natural resources Canada. It probably ties into transport Canada but I am not sure where. Potentially an easier process.

Good luck
Andrew
 
Did you get the full answer you were looking for?

The other thing I noticed was that the discussion only involved solid propellant. Have you considered making your own hybrid rocket engine? Given your current line of work it might be within your expertise. That falls outside of natural resources Canada. It probably ties into transport Canada but I am not sure where. Potentially an easier process.

Good luck
Andrew

Yes I did get all the information I was looking, thanks for asking. About the second part of your post I'll state again I have no interest in making my own rocket motor. It thank you for the information.
 
To answer simply making motors in Canada is illegal unless you have approval from the ERD. If this is something you want to explore I would suggest joining CAR, a local club and seeking out information from those in Canada that have gone through the process of getting approval.

:point: :point: :point:

Lots of discussion and back-and-forth going on here... :facepalm:

The best answer is this one above.

You said you were not interested in actually making a motor, just if it is legal or not. You also wanted a source.

Making your own motor = legal with ERD approval.
Source = ERD.
Suggestion = joining CAR, a local club and seeking out information from those in Canada that have gone through the process of getting approval.


Oh by the way... I'm American, so you should probably just ignore me. :p
 
:point: :point: :point:

Lots of discussion and back-and-forth going on here... :facepalm:

The best answer is this one above.

You said you were not interested in actually making a motor, just if it is legal or not. You also wanted a source.

Making your own motor = legal with ERD approval.
Source = ERD.
Suggestion = joining CAR, a local club and seeking out information from those in Canada that have gone through the process of getting approval.


Oh by the way... I'm American, so you should probably just ignore me. :p

I have the information I was looking for. That's not how a source works but thanks anyways.
 
To anyone else visiting this forum thread. I no longer need information on this topic, thank you for the help everyone.
 
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Welcome to the forum where no one is beyond suspicion. :rant:

Exactly right. Despite being Tripoli L2, Canadians are not allowed into the Research section. I'm a Canadian in Texas, and I can legally buy and make APCP, but I'm not allowed to learn how to do it safely via this forum.
 
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