Estes dimension 18mm, D9-X, single use, paper case high-D (19.5 N-s)

German Klima brand motor. I wonder what propellant it is using to get that kind of total impulse in that case dimension. I can't find anything via a low effort patent search. Time for some reverse engineering by US competitors?

A few years ago, I emailed NAR to ask them to do an article in Sport Rocketry on foreign model rocket motors. They said they'd do one, but the person who collected motors and would be best to write it was in Europe at the time competing. I never saw the article show up. If you want that, too, try emailing them to ask for it:

https://www.nar.org/contact-us/

[video=youtube;-sqNjTOdI04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sqNjTOdI04[/video]

The Klima motors are composite motors . https://www.neu.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/Download_Dateien/Motorflyer_DINA4.pdf

Small 13 mm and 18 mm SU APCP motors have not sold well in the US because they are more expensive to manufacture and therefore cost more than BP motors of the same impulse class.

AT makes 18 mm SU D composites that are similar. https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=2&itemid=1 https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Aerotech/D10.pdf They also make a SU D21T.

AT still sells D13W and D24T 18 mm composite reloads. https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/c...structions/RMS-18_20/rms_18_ d13-d24_4-04.pdf

Apogee Medalist composite motors used to be made in 13 mm and 18 mm single use casings but there was not a sufficient commercial market to justify production.

Bob

bobkrech said:

The Klima motors are composite motors . https://www.neu.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/Download_Dateien/Motorflyer_DINA4.pdf

Small 13 mm and 18 mm SU APCP motors have not sold well in the US because they are more expensive to manufacture and therefore cost more than BP motors of the same impulse class.

AT makes 18 mm SU D composites that are similar. https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=2&itemid=1 https://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Aerotech/D10.pdf They also make a SU D21T.

AT still sells D13W and D24T 18 mm composite reloads. https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/c...structions/RMS-18_20/rms_18_ d13-d24_4-04.pdf

Apogee Medalist composite motors used to be made in 13 mm and 18 mm single use casings but there was not a sufficient commercial market to justify production.

Bob

Click to expand...

Thanks, I was aware of the AT and Apogee motors.

I see their claim of a "new composite propellant" in the English language part of that flyer. The type of propellant being used is what interested me in these. I saw what I believe are clay nozzles and Quest Q2 BP-motor-style igniters and wondered what kind of higher Isp, possibly composite propellant was ignited easily and reliably enough with those igniters, had an exhaust temperature low enough to just use clay nozzles (IF that's what they are or perhaps they are just putting up with erosion), and a (good enough) chamber pressure low enough to use paper casings. Low cost construction with paper casings and rammed clay nozzles might make for lower priced motors. I wonder if even the propellant might be rammed and not cast in place. Those are the reasons why I was very curious about exactly what propellant formulation was being used and why I did a quick, but unproductive patent search. Lower cost SU composite motors from current or new US manufacturers using that propellant might be possible if this propellant is significantly different.

Looks like this subject has been covered before, but from the aspect of importing the motors rather than licensing them to be made in the US:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?69780-Klima-Motors

They are much cheaper, nearly half the price ($21 for 6 vs $20 for 3) of US SU Ds even with their claimed to be problematic low production level I've read about and the higher labor costs in Germany. I wonder if that's due to my theorized lower production cost with paper casings, etc., or the markup on US made motors, or a bit of both. If it is indeed the propellant that is the enabler of the lower cost construction, could it lead to much lower cost 24mm composite SU motors if some manufacturer in the US would make the effort to design them? Of course, since there isn't much competition at all in the 18-29mm SU composite motor market, what incentive would there be to produce what are certainly much less expensive motors and perhaps even lighter motors per N-s.

Winston

Read the economics comments I made on page 3 of your reference which explains why you would see them here.

1.) Klima is not interested in expanding production for the US market, and

2.) No US commercial enterprise has expressed an interest in importing them.

3.) Both AT and Apogee made similar motors and discontinued production due to low sales. This says a lot for the US market.

4.) The motors are CE approved so not a lot of extra work needs to be done to import them.

5.) If UKRA certified them, I believe NAR S&T would accept the certification which would allow them to be flown in the US.

6.) So if you are a spare $50K + $10k floating around, you could order 25K motors @ $2 each plus $10K for shipping and handling, and resell them for $4 each, which would appear to be a quick $40K profit.

But you of course have expenses. You have to pay for the shipping and customs duty from Germany to your place of business, (yes you would have to have a business), and initially inventory 25.2 K motors (4200 6 packs). You would have to set up a fulfillment operation to take orders and a shipping operation to package and ship the motors to the customers. And you have to pay taxes on the business, the unsold inventory, and your personal income. Oh and you have to advertise that you have something to sell. If you do all the work yourself, you might put $20K into your pocket, but what the hourly rate would be remains to be determined.

You could possibly set up a virtual company and contract out the business operations. A commercial 1-800 fulfillment house would probably charge ~$8 to process an order, and a warehousing company may give you free warehousing for a $1 per packages shipped. You probably would have to charge $6 for USPS Ground delivery, so your revenue could be $126K and your expenses could be as high as $28 x 4200 = $117.6K so your net could be as low as $8.4K before taxes. After taxes you're looking at $5K which is a 6.7% after tax return on investment if you sell out in a year. Your risk on the other hand is not selling everything in a year or longer. In either case, the investment return is not sufficient for the risk.

Bob