Snarky Build

I've wanted one since I first saw it and I finally got my hands on one. If this progresses at my usual pace, we are going to be here for a while.

The required first pics are attached. (still having problems with uploading)

And now, the first question:
I would like to use rail buttons but I am not certain where the best place for them will be. Aesthetically, they would look best in the intake but there may not be enough room. Option two would be on the bottom of said intake but the thin wall tube may not handle it well. Option three would be on the body above the wing but that would detract from the look more. BTW, I plan on using mini buttons with MakerBeam rail.

I actually grabbed my bird this afternoon (sounds a bit funny...sorry for that) to check about RBs. I'm sure that a mini rail will fit right in one of the intakes and I actually ordered a pair of rails off Amazon today. For me, it would be extremely difficult as a retrofit, but for you it should be doable as long as you do it before you glue on the outer shroud. You can put in that upper rb in on the bt between the middle inner "fin" and shroud, then wrap it with tape and continue the build and later put in the bottom rb (maybe drill the bottom hole first for better alignment).

Note that these are mini rail buttons...not 1010. mini rbs are smaller than you would think. I was the first to use the mini rail at my club and those tiny rbs are a pain to install since the pieces are so tiny and often fall/flip out of your hands. The micro ones are simply ridiculously small and I haven't used them yet (would think I need a pair of tweezers to install them).

I just took another look and I guess you can put both rbs on after you build; however it depends if you're comfortable with the upper rb being about 6" from the bottom of the rocket. I prefer my buttons a bit farther apart, but I would think that's fine and I'll likely try that. My thinking is that having the buttons farther apart decreases the chance of the rail rubbing against the body of the rocket (ex. if the buttons were next to each other, there would be a LOT more play in the rail end than if the buttons were on each end of the rail). I may install them tomorrow and then I'll post a pic.

So what do you think of the kit and how does it compare against other kits you've built?

Thanks for the quick response! I will be ordering rails and buttons tomorrow and I was hopeful that the mini rail would fit inside the shroud. I was interested in figuring this sooner rather than later so that I could reinforcement blocks to the centering rings. and get them in the right place.

I haven't dug into the build yet but just reading the instructions impressed me. They are well laid out and clear. The balsa is nice and solid and the edges aren't cooked like many other kits. This is going to be a fun build! I like the ones that need a little patience. My favorite kit build so far has been the QCC Explorer. I actually enjoyed the process of building the trunks on that one. It looks like the Snarky will likely top that one!

Ok... You got my attention. op:

Built a Snarky in Oct 2014 - Photo. It was complex, but fun. Take your time with the build.

First flight on an E18-4W it went up about 100', took a 90° turn, leveled off, and took off. :surprised:

I think if the intake has any support wood in it(I think there is a inlet splitter) you could just add a couple of thin ply or hardwood blocks inside the intake and install the rail buttons on the bottom of the intake into the hardwood blocks.

BTW, this is one of the few modern kits I really like, it has a great set of decals and a nice shape.

Frank

burkefj said:

I think if the intake has any support wood in it(I think there is a inlet splitter) you could just add a couple of thin ply or hardwood blocks inside the intake and install the rail buttons on the bottom of the intake into the hardwood blocks...

Click to expand...

It does. It's called the "bottom fin".

Instead of blocks, for support I used a thin piece of piano wire, sharpened at one end, pressed through the scoop tube exterior (at the forward end) and into the bottom fin. Cut flush with the scoop tube. It seemed to work.

I have one of these too, but haven't got around to building it. I'm curious how to paint the red underneath the intake and make it look good. I was thinking a 4" upscale would be cool of this kit

AfterBurners said:

...I'm curious how to paint the red underneath the intake and make it look good. ...

Click to expand...

That was a puzzle for me, and the issue didn't occur until I had the kit fully built - oops how do I paint inside the scoop...

I ended-up masking the entire area outside of the scoop and spraying paint inside, and brush painting further inside. It wasn't my best work.

I guess you could paint the bottom fin and scoop interior prior to assembly, but that still leaves the airframe inside the scoop to be painted.

I thought I posted last night but I guess I hit the wrong button, so here is my initial progress.

The templates were a good primer for cutting the tube. It was actually a little tougher to follow the curves on a flat plane than on the tube. Cutting the tube its self was a little tedious and slightly nerve racking at times but a little patience got it done. I will certainly second the recommendations to make all of the cuts for the scoop in multiple passes. The end cuts don't get too fiddly but the top cut would have been a nightmare otherwise. I actually scored each cut along a straight edge three or four times first and was able to gently flex the tube to help guide my blade as I completed the cuts, working from the aft end and keeping them roughly even as I made my way forward.

I know that I broke convention by not starting with the motor mount but I wanted to get an idea of how much clearance I will have for the 10mm MakerBeam rail. It appears as though there will be more than enough room for the rail and micro-buttons (about 30mm both ways) so I will go ahead with that plan. Having never worked with thin wall tube, I am wondering how much reinforcement the tube will need. I could easily lay a small square of glass over the planned button location, or simply add a little epoxy when thread the buttons in, I am certainly open to suggestions here.

The next step is to dress the edges of the scoop and get it to match up to the layout lines on the body. Right now, if I line it up with the scoop line on one side it falls just shy of the opposite wing line. That is my goal for tonight, getting the scoop centered.

I'd reco you use the mini buttons...not the micro (found on https://rail-buttons.com/minimicro.html). I think the micros are only supposed to be for up to 'C' motors (don't quote me), but I myself would use the minis for anything B+. Also I haven't installed my Snarky rbs yet (I want to wait for the beam first to plan alignment/placement...I think I may have ordered the wrong rail though...we'll see). I think just drilling a hole smaller than the rb bolt, then threading it with a similarly threaded pointed screw(like a tap), then adding some epoxy into the hole and putting on the rb would be fine (similar to Apogee's instructional video).

Looking at the micro buttons, I'd only use them for micro rockets (like 1/4 A or MMX) up to A motors. Micros are tiny. Really, really tiny.

This just BEGS to be upscaled!

Screaminhelo said:

I've wanted one since I first saw it and I finally got my hands on one. If this progresses at my usual pace, we are going to be here for a while.

The required first pics are attached. (still having problems with uploading)

And now, the first question:
I would like to use rail buttons but I am not certain where the best place for them will be. Aesthetically, they would look best in the intake but there may not be enough room. Option two would be on the bottom of said intake but the thin wall tube may not handle it well. Option three would be on the body above the wing but that would detract from the look more. BTW, I plan on using mini buttons with MakerBeam rail.

Click to expand...

KenECoyote said:

I'd reco you use the mini buttons...not the micro (found on https://rail-buttons.com/minimicro.html). I think the micros are only supposed to be for up to 'C' motors (don't quote me), but I myself would use the minis for anything B+. Also I haven't installed my Snarky rbs yet (I want to wait for the beam first to plan alignment/placement...I think I may have ordered the wrong rail though...we'll see). I think just drilling a hole smaller than the rb bolt, then threading it with a similarly threaded pointed screw(like a tap), then adding some epoxy into the hole and putting on the rb would be fine (similar to Apogee's instructional video).

Looking at the micro buttons, I'd only use them for micro rockets (like 1/4 A or MMX) up to A motors. Micros are tiny. Really, really tiny.

Click to expand...

Where are you getting the information that micro RBs are only for C impulse or less? I'm curious because I own a 10mm rail and have launched D and E motors with no problems. I would like see the information.

Banzai88 said:

This just BEGS to be upscaled!

Click to expand...

I've been thinking the same thing.

Regarding buttons, I'd go with mini buttons over micro for this size model. And FWIW, I've had considerable trouble getting micro buttons to slide freely in the 10mm maker beam rail. Even with a lot of filing & sanding, its still a marginal fit. As far as installing them goes, you can simply drill a hole in the tube and CA it. They will tighten well enough going into the cardboard. For mini buttons, though, I usually aim for a centering ring. A small scrap of basswood glued to the ring is more than sufficient as a reinforcement.

KenECoyote said:

I'd reco you use the mini buttons...not the micro (found on https://rail-buttons.com/minimicro.html). I think the micros are only supposed to be for up to 'C' motors (don't quote me), but I myself would use the minis for anything B+. Also I haven't installed my Snarky rbs yet (I want to wait for the beam first to plan alignment/placement...I think I may have ordered the wrong rail though...we'll see). I think just drilling a hole smaller than the rb bolt, then threading it with a similarly threaded pointed screw(like a tap), then adding some epoxy into the hole and putting on the rb would be fine (similar to Apogee's instructional video).

Looking at the micro buttons, I'd only use them for micro rockets (like 1/4 A or MMX) up to A motors. Micros are tiny. Really, really tiny.

Click to expand...

I decided on micro buttons based on information in this thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?64825-Micro-Buttons-(RailButtons-com)-Beta-Test

I also referenced the original interest thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...mini-railbuttons&highlight=interest+mini+rail

Based on these, I feel comfortable using micros for this rocket and they will compliment my existing fleet very well and provide the best clearance in the scoop of the Snarky.

EXPjawa- I hear what you are saying about the fit of the micros in the Makerbeam rail. I really didn't want 6 rails, so I ordered the Makerbeams and will take them to the sheetmetal shop to work on improving the fit when they arrive.

Thanks for the advice on attaching the buttons, I was just a bit concerned about the thin wall tube. I'll just go with CA and a spot of epoxy when I thread them.

rharshberger said:

Where are you getting the information that micro RBs are only for C impulse or less? I'm curious because I own a 10mm rail and have launched D and E motors with no problems. I would like see the information.

Click to expand...

It was a fellow rocketry friend who dropped by my place yesterday and we were talking about rail buttons (that's why I said not to quote me).

My own opinion was based on transferring experience using 1010 buttons for Mid/HP to the smaller rockets I had. I only added mini buttons to a few rockets this year and they were basically for D-E sized rockets (also to test a few winged rockets for rod whip after they flew willy nilly the previous flight). Also of note is that I last recalled that the micro buttons were made for MMX and up (couldn't recall the upper limit), so I just thought a button made for an MMX doesn't seem to make sense for a D-E-F sized rocket; however it sounds like it can work, so I'll start trying it.

Please keep in mind that buttons are a somewhat newer innovation/trend (they started it last year and my club only got the rails this summer) and that there is still a lot of learning here. Heck, there's still arguments on the best placement of 1010/1515 buttons which can go on for a long time. :wink:

Screaminhelo said:

I decided on micro buttons based on information in this thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?64825-Micro-Buttons-(RailButtons-com)-Beta-Test

I also referenced the original interest thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...mini-railbuttons&highlight=interest+mini+rail

Based on these, I feel comfortable using micros for this rocket and they will compliment my existing fleet very well and provide the best clearance in the scoop of the Snarky.

Click to expand...

Good digging! I was actually going to mention in the earlier posts that I was considering using 3 buttons for the Snarky retrofit since 2 below the intake seemed too close and 2 on either sides seemed too far apart. However I thought 3 minis seemed overkill, OTH 3 micros sounds great! Also note I'm basing this on my experience using 1010 buttons this summer on Mid-power and larger...my experience with minis is limited since my club has only gotten the mini and micro rails a few launches ago (3?) and I've been doing mostly HP those launches. I was the first to use the mini rail (TLP kit) and liked it a lot; however I haven't used the micro and I don't know of anyone who has at my club yet. At the last launch when I checked it was lying on the ground by the LP rail; however I'll be sure to use it next season.

Banzai88 said:

This just BEGS to be upscaled!

Click to expand...

It's been done!

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?6485-Upscale-Snarky

I'm giving more thought as to my earlier suggestion on which buttons to use. Here are some thoughts FWIW:

• 1010 buttons are for the HP pads at my club, which are also for larger MP rockets (29mm+ such as Aerotech kits and I've flown 24mm AP as well). If micro buttons are for MMX through E, that leaves minis with almost just the F...unless they also fit the HP 1010 rails (I haven't checked). Given this, it sounds like E is the upper micro range and there is overlap with the mini range, so it's up to user discretion. (Is there any chart/guideline for usage around?)
• I prefer to overbuild and make builds strong if possible. The micro attachment points are really small and that was my concern here. Sure, they may work fine on D's & E's, but what if you have a club rail dirtied after a season of flights and has lots of drag/binding or you have one button slightly askew? Minis seem much stronger than micros; however using 3 micros in place of 2 minis sounds like a great idea and I'll try it on my Snarky.
• I believe my club's micro rail is 3'. I just recall it being quite "short" in comparison to the mini rail (which I think is 4', which was a bit of a reach for me when on a tall tripod and trying to put the rocket onto the rail). Given I'm adding buttons to my rockets with priority to winged rockets due to trying to determine flight characteristics without the factor of rod whip, I would think a longer rod is better than a shorter rod IMO, so for the Snarky, I would still prefer a 4' rail over a 3' rail. I may end up putting on 3 micros on one side and 2 minis on the other side of the intake splitter and testing next season when my club resumes launches.

Thanks to everyone for their input! I enjoy learning new things every chance I get.

A couple of comments:

• I've seen short Mini & Micro rails at clubs, ours are only 3 & 4', which is too short in my opinion as well. I've purchased 5' Micro rails and 6' Mini rails to build my own pad. I've since sold one of the Micro rails to TopRamen. My pad is tripod-based, with quick-change rails & rods, so I can use either readily.
• The Micro button rail is distinctly stiffer than an 1/8" or 3/16" rod, but it is still not that stiff. It only has a 10mm cross section (less than a 1/2"), and in 4 & 5' lengths it has to be handled with care to keep from bending. In fact, there has been considerable difficulty getting it shipped safely in the first place.
• The fit issue with Makerbeam is less about the slot width (which is close) and more about the channel clearance for the button head. I've had to file a bevel on the button heads to improve it. That means that reworking the beam to ensure universal fit is difficult, and you're left with modifying the buttons as required. You really have to do this on the model in order to be able to test fit them in the rail. If you're putting them in a non-accessible location (like on Snarky), that will be problematic.
• I've put Microbuttons on on 4 models to date. On two of them, I've wound up retrofitting a conventional lug to side step the ongoing fit issue. The other two have yet to fly.
• Makerbeam sells square-headed 3mm bolts, intended for use with their rail - they have a tapered head, similar to the shape I was filing. It may be worth just using those instead of the buttons.
• I've use Mini buttons to great success on models that can fly F&G motors (29mm), but have only flown Fs off of them at this point. I really just make a judgement call based on size & weight regarding Mini or 1010. So far, all PSII models that I've built have used 1010, but I have built several in the 3' length with BT70 or 80 tube that used the Minibutton. I've flown my 2.6" Astron Ranger (with 3 clustered 24mm mounts) on Mini, no problem. To me, they work well in the 8 to, oh, 16oz ballpark, in the D to F impulse range.
• By the same token, I think that Microbuttons would work sufficiently up to the D-E range of impulse, if the model was fairly light. However, the difference is size between the Micro & Mini isn't nearly as marked as it is between Mini and 1010, so there is a diminishing advantage to using the Micro, unless you need the small rail for fitment reasons.
• I've done something similar to what you're doing with Snarky on my Firecat upscale. In that case, I used Minibuttons, and the rail goes up through the faux-engine pod underneath the body. It works pretty well.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I've emailed Randy at rail-buttons.com and his reply (which was very quick) was:


Thanks Randy!

Not really hijacking, I would say it is a relevant discussion for the thread. I believe that things like this are why we do build threads, so we can kick around ideas, especially when it comes to new equipment and methods.

I better understand the Makerbeam clearance issue now. I have a thought on how to allow access to the buttons post build. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the information, last I had heard (conclusions I garnered from the testing) was that the Micro RBs were basically LPR/MPR and the Mini RBs MPR/Light HPR. I will be trying some brass 2-56 machine screws with the Micro RBs as well and contouring them for a better fit. The Micros do need a bit of fitting to slide properly however the flights I have had with them so far on my 5' Makerbeam rail have been great, very little "rail whip", and the 10mm rail is much stiffer than any 1/4" rod.

The Snarky is a great looking rocket, nice choice.

Screaminhelo said:

Not really hijacking, I would say it is a relevant discussion for the thread. I believe that things like this are why we do build threads, so we can kick around ideas, especially when it comes to new equipment and methods.

Click to expand...

+1 :clap:

rharshberger said:

Thanks for the information, last I had heard (conclusions I garnered from the testing) was that the Micro RBs were basically LPR/MPR and the Mini RBs MPR/Light HPR. I will be trying some brass 2-56 machine screws with the Micro RBs as well and contouring them for a better fit. The Micros do need a bit of fitting to slide properly however the flights I have had with them so far on my 5' Makerbeam rail have been great, very little "rail whip", and the 10mm rail is much stiffer than any 1/4" rod.

Click to expand...

Now I understand a bit more. The micro buttons I have include tiny little nylon screws which looks to be the same (2-56) as shear pins! I just couldn't wrap my head around using shear pins on buttons for anything using "the mighty D" and higher motors, but using metal screws/pins/bolts in place would definitely strengthen them (and make me feel better about using them).

Here's a pic of the stuff side-by-side for comparison for any folks out there not familiar with the micro/mini buttons. 1/4" launch lug I had lying around (Snarky includes one ~3" long), a micro button and a mini button along with genuine "found around my desk" treasure.



As a side note I checked with Randy as to whether the upper motor limits mentioned for the micro buttons were with 2 or 3 buttons (since one of the threads earlier referenced included testing using 3 buttons). His reply was "I've only used two buttons on any rocket, even the big ones. With three there is a better chance of having the rocket get bound up on the rail is it's just a little bit off. Much (sp) harder to do with just two buttons. "

I just went to a local screw vendor (Tacoma Screw) and picked up some brass 2-56 round head machine screws, and they slide much easier in the rail than the nylon ones do and so far as I can tell don't seem to scratch/damage the rail, and they would be much stronger. I will be testing them out with G-motors in my Estes Big Daddy eventually, the nylon screws I will put with the 1000 other ones I picked up from Fastenal on clearance for $8.

Edit: Just hand tested the brass screws in place of the nylon and after observing closely the heads of neither screw were actually touching the interior of the rail, the lower piece of the buttons need to be shortened similar to what BEC and Micromeister mentioned in their posts. Guess I will have to make a shortening jig. Sorry about the derail.

FYI - I got my 10mm beams today (I'll order the 20mm ones from rail-buttons.com once I'm ready to place an order for more buttons) and so I've retrofitted my Snarky with the micro buttons. I put the bottom one near the very bottom and the upper one as far forward as I could while still being able to drill a hole straight down flat on the tube. Next i trimmed the barrels down by about 1/3, then I installed them (stock nylon bolt) and tested it on one of the rails. Some slight binding, but I think it's good. I chose to install the micros on the left lower intake since it's the one with the launch lug and so it has less room for a 20mm rail (which I'll install on the other side next time).




Great news is that I didn't see any rubbing of the rail against the body or interior parts, which was an earlier concern of mine.

Looks good.

Ken-Looks good Man! I built the wings and the mount at lunch today but no pics. Monday nights are filled with Cub Scouts, I'll post my meager progress soon.

Rich-I'll have to make a run to my local Fastenall and grab some of those brass screws to try, they sound like a good idea here.

Well, I have made a little progress. Motor mount is done and installed, and the flying surfaces are assembled. I hope to get more done over the weekend but I ended up getting a chance to get my WeBeLoS involved in an Eagle project Saturday, so we'll see how it goes.

My rail showed up today but I am still waiting for the buttons, thanks to Randy for saving me a few backs on shipping!

Because of the challenge of painting the inside of the scoop, I'm thinking that I will mask off my layout lines and then fill and finish that area of the body tube haven't decided on colors though although the Blue Angels set at Stickershock is tempting!