skin-on-frame rocket

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Beanboy

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One of my old ideas that I never got around to was to give a skin-on-frame rocket a try. Something like this borrowed from the kayak/model airplane world:

6a00d834519ff669e2010536e2d408970c-pi


First question of scratch-built... Has anyone given this a go before?

I know there was/is a patent describing the method: https://www.google.com/patents/US4374493


Was thinking a central body tube for recovery/motor mount/nose cone attachment. From there either some rings of a much larger diameter body tube that can be used to support the heat shrink fabric, or maybe even a balsa frame.

The idea is to get a rocket, say 6" in diameter, that weighs mere ounces. Thinking E9 or F15 for propulsion... Something long and slow.
 
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The Estes Asteroid Hunter (being discontinued but still available on special clearance) as an example on lpr

And I once saw someone with a V2 looking rocket that was several feet tall and almost a foot in diameter using a frame with a soft cloth covering
 
Thanks for the replies, looks like the technique is out there. Thanks for the Asteroid Hunder info.; found a good interior shot:

P7234317.jpg
 
The V2 that was launched at Thunda early in the year was foam panels built up on an aluminium framework. I think at 14m tall it was a necessity to keep the weight down.
 
I'm thinking a stand-off scale model of Goodyear's new Zeppelin would be a neat model to build using a framework:

DSCF9420_640x_NT-nolegend.jpg
 
I have built rockets with foamboard rings and cardstock skins and burkefj has a lot of his huge, all foam rockets that use ring/rib/skin construction. I have seen both lpr and hpr rockets that use rib construction covered with thin paper (don't know exactly what type). I might be able to find a link to flight reports on the hpr version. Will post back if I do.
 
I have built rockets with foamboard rings and cardstock skins and burkefj has a lot of his huge, all foam rockets that use ring/rib/skin construction. I have seen both lpr and hpr rockets that use rib construction covered with thin paper (don't know exactly what type). I might be able to find a link to flight reports on the hpr version. Will post back if I do.

I was thinking just the other day you could build a paper nose cone w/ the rib and cardstock skins, then use the patterns to cut glass cloth and make a fiberglass shell...that should make a good hpr cone.
 
Hi, as Dick said, both of us have done work in this area. A lot of how light you can go will depend on your choice of components. I've done a 5.5" diameter 52" tall Pershing 1A that weighs 20 ounces ready to fly with an F-32. I used a lightweight 24mm stuffer tube for the spine, and a BT-80 upper parachute bay to hold the parachute. There was no nose weight required.

I'm using a lightweight foam sheet for the ribs and centering rings and 2mm thick for the skins. The skins weigh about 4-5 ounces for an 8" by 70" long airframe.

Add up your weights of components, I think you'll be surprised at how much things add up.

For larger models I've been using LOC 29mm tube for the stuffer and pml 4" by 12-14" long parachute bay. PML tubing isn't required for strength, but it helps with my models CG since I'm modeling things with small rear fins that normally need nose weight.

As an example of an 8" diameter Titan Missile I just built, the foam outer structure and skin weighed 15 ounces total including glue, the rest of the weight was the 29mm stuffer tube(5.5 ounces) pml parachute bay (5.5 ounces), 50" chute(4 ounces), nomex blankets and kevlar line(5 ounces), altimeter 2 ounces, a few 3/32" ply centering rings to attach recover and rail buttons to(6 ounces) and fins(depends on your material) 4-10 ounces.

I know that you can do it with motor ejection on G-80's if you are really careful and plan ahead, if you want to build it with CG margin for a larger motor and altimeter it puts you a few ounces over that far 101 limit. You can avoid the nomex and use wadding, use a very lightweight chute, dump the altimeter, use very lightweight recovery attachment hardware, not use a retainer, use lite ply for the centering rings that the rail buttons attach to to save weight. I have not used any wood structure for my models, nor have I used any paper/cardboard but I don't think the foam would be heavier than those. Most of the weight in a large model is not the outer structure.

If you chose a lightweight monokote or similar skin, that will save a few ounces, but you need to plan ahead for how/where you are going to attach the launch lug or rail buttons, I use a ply plate at the top/bottom that I attach the buttons to. You also need to consider landing loads and how you are going to attach your fins since you won't have any skin strength to apply fillets to, you need to tie them to the stuffer tube somehow.

I made a spreadsheet with all of the components with estimated weights, and filled in as I went with actual weights to be sure I was on track. Use rocksim or openrocket and plug in the actual weights of components and the motor planned so that you can see where your CG is going to be to avoid having to add nose weight, or need a bigger motor due to overweight and need more nose weight later...

I've attached a picture from openrocket of a Falcon showing the internal structure/stuffer tube, parachute bay etc.
There are full length stringers that lock into the foam centering rings that are spaced about 6" apart, 8 stringers, and the 2mm skin.
It moves the parachute weight as far forward as possible. Only the very rounded tip ejects. You want to be sure you keep the nose light, attach the balast to the airframe at the top under the skin, otherwise you have a heavy cone swinging around that will crush your lightweight airframe if it hits it.
I also put a picture of the titan II which shows the outer airframe and the upper parachute bay and how I did the tapered cone around the parachute bay before sheeting. The other picture shows some of my foam models, as you can see they can look pretty nice. If built using just LOC 7.5" tubing, 38mm mounts and 1/4" ply fins, all of these would weigh 20# or more ready to fly, for the redstone and Titan I have done just that and that's what they weigh, so the lightweight structure allows much smaller motors to be flown at the same scale. You can fly these models on H-128's for around 500' altitude for small fields on the low end, they are a bit heavy for G-80's.

These larger models, 7 to 10" diameter have weighed 4# to 6.4# ready to fly with motor and have flown on up to I-205's. But these were scale models so had extra details, covering, nozzles, clear fins etc that added to the weight, you can do a simple 3fnc design that will save weight.

AstronMike had done a G powered monokote covered structure back in the day, he may chime in on what worked for him. He said he had to be very careful handlng it. Mine are a bit more tolerant of handling. The funny thing is the way these fly, they are so low in sectional density, that they bleed off speed quickly and the rocket doesn't arc over, it just sort of stalls straight up, then ejects.

WP_20151027_004.jpg
 

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Thanks for the replies, looks like the technique is out there. Thanks for the Asteroid Hunder info.; found a good interior shot:

Yep, a fair amount of this technique is out there. As his posts show, Frank Burke is the ultimate guru on the lightweight version of skinned framework rockets with his clever and skilled use of depron/extruded polystyrene sheet foam. Seen a few large and heavy high power rockets done this way as well.

I see a few of these types of models in my future as well....:)
 
A real skin on frame V2 would be awesome. Just like the real thing. Nothing like the super smooth and finished V2 rocket models I see all the time. OMG it is bumpy and rough! Looks like it was built with forced labor! Say it ain't so.

I saw somewhere a big motor was put in the back of a HAWK Graf Zeppelin model with lexan fins, looked like skin over frame but just a PMC.

A skin over frame WWI airplane rocket? Probably impossible and a wee bit nutty.
 
Awesome feedback folks. Thanks!

Frank, did you experiment at all with centering ring and rib spacing?
 
Hi, yes I have. I have used between 5" up to 8" spacing and 6 stringers versus 8 stringers. I did some load tests of an 8" diameter section with 8 stringers and sheeting and 6" spacing. This had the stringers full width and glued to the 29mm tube. The section took a 75 pound load on just half of the section(not including the stuffer tube), just on the foam structure and skin on one side of the section. On this sort of test you are more limited by the crush strength of the area that is supporting the load, but it satisfied me that it was plenty strong enough for 29mm I motors.

8" cr spacing seemed a bit sparse to me and I've settled on 6" as pretty good. Most of the determination of cr spacing and number of stringers was determined by how much support the skin needed and trying to prevent it from flattening out in between, than any vertical strength issue. I also have stopped using full width stringers and have now settled on 2" wide, as that gives enough support for the skin. I think I was adding more in glue weight for all of the stuffer tube to stringer joints than I was needing for strength. I notch the stringers to lock into the slots in the centering rings, mostly this helps align things better than adding any strength. I think most of the vertical stress is handled by the stuffer tube actually. In the end, the foam is not a big portion of the total weight. Like I said the rib/centering ring weight for an 8" model is about 8-9 ounces, the skin adds another 4-6. So saving an ounce here isn't buying much. This applies to the foam, if you are using other materials you may find other tradeoffs. You can also put lightening holes in the ply centering rings or the foam centering rings since they are really there to support the stringers and sheeting and keeping the stuffer tube from deflecting leading to buckling.

Frank




Awesome feedback folks. Thanks!

Frank, did you experiment at all with centering ring and rib spacing?
 
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Hi, as Dick said, both of us have done work in this area. A lot of how light you can go will depend on your choice of components. I've done a 5.5" diameter 52" tall Pershing 1A that weighs 20 ounces ready to fly with an F-32. I used a lightweight 24mm stuffer tube for the spine, and a BT-80 upper parachute bay to hold the parachute. There was no nose weight required.

I'm using a lightweight foam sheet for the ribs and centering rings and 2mm thick for the skins. The skins weigh about 4-5 ounces for an 8" by 70" long airframe.

Add up your weights of components, I think you'll be surprised at how much things add up.

For larger models I've been using LOC 29mm tube for the stuffer and pml 4" by 12-14" long parachute bay. PML tubing isn't required for strength, but it helps with my models CG since I'm modeling things with small rear fins that normally need nose weight.

As an example of an 8" diameter Titan Missile I just built, the foam outer structure and skin weighed 15 ounces total including glue, the rest of the weight was the 29mm stuffer tube(5.5 ounces) pml parachute bay (5.5 ounces), 50" chute(4 ounces), nomex blankets and kevlar line(5 ounces), altimeter 2 ounces, a few 3/32" ply centering rings to attach recover and rail buttons to(6 ounces) and fins(depends on your material) 4-10 ounces.

I know that you can do it with motor ejection on G-80's if you are really careful and plan ahead, if you want to build it with CG margin for a larger motor and altimeter it puts you a few ounces over that far 101 limit. You can avoid the nomex and use wadding, use a very lightweight chute, dump the altimeter, use very lightweight recovery attachment hardware, not use a retainer, use lite ply for the centering rings that the rail buttons attach to to save weight. I have not used any wood structure for my models, nor have I used any paper/cardboard but I don't think the foam would be heavier than those. Most of the weight in a large model is not the outer structure.

If you chose a lightweight monokote or similar skin, that will save a few ounces, but you need to plan ahead for how/where you are going to attach the launch lug or rail buttons, I use a ply plate at the top/bottom that I attach the buttons to. You also need to consider landing loads and how you are going to attach your fins since you won't have any skin strength to apply fillets to, you need to tie them to the stuffer tube somehow.

I made a spreadsheet with all of the components with estimated weights, and filled in as I went with actual weights to be sure I was on track. Use rocksim or openrocket and plug in the actual weights of components and the motor planned so that you can see where your CG is going to be to avoid having to add nose weight, or need a bigger motor due to overweight and need more nose weight later...

I've attached a picture from openrocket of a Falcon showing the internal structure/stuffer tube, parachute bay etc.
There are full length stringers that lock into the foam centering rings that are spaced about 6" apart, 8 stringers, and the 2mm skin.
It moves the parachute weight as far forward as possible. Only the very rounded tip ejects. You want to be sure you keep the nose light, attach the balast to the airframe at the top under the skin, otherwise you have a heavy cone swinging around that will crush your lightweight airframe if it hits it.
I also put a picture of the titan II which shows the outer airframe and the upper parachute bay and how I did the tapered cone around the parachute bay before sheeting. The other picture shows some of my foam models, as you can see they can look pretty nice. If built using just LOC 7.5" tubing, 38mm mounts and 1/4" ply fins, all of these would weigh 20# or more ready to fly, for the redstone and Titan I have done just that and that's what they weigh, so the lightweight structure allows much smaller motors to be flown at the same scale. You can fly these models on H-128's for around 500' altitude for small fields on the low end, they are a bit heavy for G-80's.

These larger models, 7 to 10" diameter have weighed 4# to 6.4# ready to fly with motor and have flown on up to I-205's. But these were scale models so had extra details, covering, nozzles, clear fins etc that added to the weight, you can do a simple 3fnc design that will save weight.

AstronMike had done a G powered monokote covered structure back in the day, he may chime in on what worked for him. He said he had to be very careful handlng it. Mine are a bit more tolerant of handling. The funny thing is the way these fly, they are so low in sectional density, that they bleed off speed quickly and the rocket doesn't arc over, it just sort of stalls straight up, then ejects.

Man, you do some awesome work. I am sure you heard that before though!
 
I can't believe I forgot that one when trying to find a link to a prior build. Well worth the (re)read!
 
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