Tracksoar open source APRS tracker kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1250163085/tracksoar-aprs looks interesting. Puts position and environmental data onto the ham 2m APRS network.

Looks very interesting indeed, however it looks like it going to struggle to make its funding limit.

Small GPS receiving antenna might hobble it even in non-CF airframe. 2 meter band does better with a larger antenna. It is indeed small and I think smaller than the currently available, meant for rocketry APRS tracker the Altus Metrum Tele-GPS.
The Marshall Falcon tracker, https://marshallradio.com/north-american-falconry-products/gps-systems, is the smallest yet and has been flown on a rocket successfully.
The Tracksoar is supposed to be programmable. I wonder if they meant the frequency too. All of the above are on the ham band so might not have any utility for non-amateur radio folks. (Easy to test and get a license though.)

Kurt Savegnago

The coolest thing about the traksoar is that it uses the standard APRS 2m data frequency so that the data goes onto the WWW.

You can do that with the 2m BeelineGPS, of course. But the traksoar integrates environmental sensors that the BeelineGPS lacks.

I like (and own) the Altus Metrum products, but there is not an equivalent mesh on the 70cm band.

And the closest non-ham equivalents all depend upon the, still sparse in some locations, cellphone network. Granted, cell network coverage is likely to become pervasive. But we aren't there yet...

I do not know how the aprs.fi works. lets say after landing the APRS transmitter isn't able to hit a repeater, will the last fix of the APRS station persist on the tracking website or will it dissapear?

jderimig said:

I do not know how the aprs.fi works. lets say after landing the APRS transmitter isn't able to hit a repeater, will the last fix of the APRS station persist on the tracking website or will it dissapear?

Click to expand...

History is preserved. Once something is on the Internet, it's on the net forever... 8)

Using the 144.390 MHz packet network to get data onto the web works well for balloons and has been done for some time. For rockets there might be an issue with how often you can transmit position data. I think the recommended minimum time between positions is one minute. Good for balloons but not so great for rockets.

Here is an example ground track of a balloon stored on ARRS.FI
https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a/WB8ELK-11&timerange=3600&tail=3600

WillMarchant said:

The coolest thing about the traksoar is that it uses the standard APRS 2m data frequency so that the data goes onto the WWW.

You can do that with the 2m BeelineGPS, of course. But the traksoar integrates environmental sensors that the BeelineGPS lacks.

I like (and own) the Altus Metrum products, but there is not an equivalent mesh on the 70cm band.

And the closest non-ham equivalents all depend upon the, still sparse in some locations, cellphone network. Granted, cell network coverage is likely to become pervasive. But we aren't there yet...

Click to expand...

Ahhhhh,

Will, the APRS police would likely get ticked off with a once every 5 second position packet over 144.390. If I were going to use a Sainsonic (2m) AP510 in the nosecone of a rocket, I'd tune it to 144.800, something off the national frequency so's not to
clog the APRS-IS network and jerk the 'ire of the APRS police.:wink: With 1 watt output, wouldn't need the network for backup tracking.

John, click here for a sample link on an APRS map:

https://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a/PARS&timerange=3600&tail=3600

Actually is an icon/item I have put out via the home machine via Rf at the local launchsite. Kurt Savegnago

Well, since it is open source I think there may be an opportunity for some custom coding.

For example the unit comes with a baro sensor. You could program a scenario where you more frequently transmit location packets on the descent as you get closer to the ground to get a track in case of lost signal upon landing. After landing you do not have to transmit any more packets. That should keep the APRS police happy don't you think?

Bob has balloon guidelines at https://aprs.org/balloons.html that might be appropriate for rocket data going into the national net.

jderimig said:

Well, since it is open source I think there may be an opportunity for some custom coding.

For example the unit comes with a baro sensor. You could program a scenario where you more frequently transmit location packets on the descent as you get closer to the ground to get a track in case of lost signal upon landing. After landing you do not have to transmit any more packets. That should keep the APRS police happy don't you think?

Click to expand...

This is referred to as "Smart Beaconing". The shortest beacon interval is recommended to be at least 1 minute. Don't forget that you are sharing this resource with everyone else using APRS in your area.

ksaves2 wrote:

I'd tune it to 144.800, something off the national frequency so's not to clog the APRS-IS network and jerk the 'ire of the APRS police.

With 1 watt output, wouldn't need the network for backup tracking.

Click to expand...

Exactly. You can send beacons as often as you want, just not on the 144.390MHz packet network.

W7AMI said:

This is referred to as "Smart Beaconing". The shortest beacon interval is recommended to be at least 1 minute. Don't forget that you are sharing this resource with everyone else using APRS in your area.

Click to expand...

I understand the long interval need because it an unacknowledged packet reception and you want consume bandwidth. But lets say you had a smart beaconing strategy of several transmissions less than one minute apart around 1000-500 feet to make sure at least one packet got through in the vicinity of landing. Then after that NO transmissions at all. Would that be acceptable?

I'm not an expert but that would certainly help. What you might do is to talk to someone who operates and APRS digipeater and see what they think. I can't find documentation but I have found references that some digipeaters will not forward packets from stations that send position reports to frequently. I don't know if that is correct or what the minimum interval might be.

This article does a good job of explaining how the ham packet digipeaters and iGate stations work to put your position report onto the net. Note that it says don't transmit more often than 30 seconds instead of one minute.

APRS Settings for High Altitude Balloons

It looks like the digipeater setting that affects how often you can expect your position packets to be repeated is called DUPETIME. It's setting is up to the operator of the digipeater. In the past the recomended setting was 30 seconds but can be turned off if the operator desires.

So if X-Digi sees a packet with the same source and destination address and the same contents within the time
period specified by dupetime, it will not diigipeat it. Because this timer is set in increments of 5 seconds,
a value of 6, for example, will result in a 30 second duplicate checking period. Do not set this value
higher than about 24 (2 minutes). Setting the dupe value to 0 turns off dupe checking.

Click to expand...

Full document here

W7AMI said:

It looks like the digipeater setting that affects how often you can expect your position packets to be repeated is called DUPETIME. It's setting is up to the operator of the digipeater. In the past the recomended setting was 30 seconds but can be turned off if the operator desires.


Full document here

Click to expand...

In the case of a descending rocket the contents of the packet won't be the same so it would repeat it?

I am thinking the packet would use I-gate to just get the info up on APRS.fi to minimize the repeat hops.

In the case of a descending rocket the contents of the packet won't be the same so it would repeat it?

Click to expand...

I wondered the same thing. I'm not sure. It could be the only way to know would be to try it and see.

I remember several years ago a balloon guy launched three balloons at the same time with a 30 second interval. This was in Northern Nevada. The balloon tracker was hitting digipeaters from Southern California up into British Columbia. In searching for information about the duptime settings I found several references to inconsiderate balloon people disrupting the packet network by setting the beacon interval to 30 seconds. Part of the issue seemed to be the number of repeats they had configured the transmitter for. If you configure the transmitter for no relays that might solve the issue with digipeaters. You would just need to be in range of the nearest igate.

I'm not saying you shouldn't explore the idea. It could be a lot of fun. I just didn't want to see the rocket community get a black eye for someone overloading the network with position reports.

Maybe the way to go would be for you to set up your own iGate on a different frequency? That would eliminate the issue of packet collisions with other users. That way you could set the beacon interval to what ever you want and still get your rocket track on the web. You would have to live somewhat close to the launch site for this to work. Several years ago I set up a small 5 element yagi on 2 Meters at my house and successfully captured packet transmissions from a rocket 25 miles away. The tracker was running 1 Watt and I get data while the rocket was above 500 feet off the ground.

Looks like the kickstarter failed, but you can still make a purchase at their web-site? So what was the point of the kickstarter?

Perhaps I should start one I often wonder what the whole point of these kickstarter campaigns is........

Greg K7RKT TRA 7960

bigredbee said:

Looks like the kickstarter failed, but you can still make a purchase at their web-site? So what was the point of the kickstarter?

Perhaps I should start one I often wonder what the whole point of these kickstarter campaigns is........

Greg K7RKT TRA 7960

Click to expand...

Are we talking a BeelineGPS sensor suite? Sounds cool!

bigredbee said:

Looks like the kickstarter failed, but you can still make a purchase at their web-site? So what was the point of the kickstarter?

Perhaps I should start one I often wonder what the whole point of these kickstarter campaigns is........

Greg K7RKT TRA 7960

Click to expand...

Free market research?

Like Will mentioned about balloons: https://aprs.org/balloons.html That's the courteous way to do it. For a rocket with a flight that so short relatively speaking, I am the only one that's interested in finding it. With the 70cm band trackers there's no wide spread national frequency for digipeating. If a 2 meter tracker gets stuck in a tree transmitting once every 5 seconds, with a WIDE2-2 path, hitting a nearby digipeater, it will clog up the national frequency in a large area until the battery dies. Setting up parameters like mentioned above is not Smart Beaconing. That is another animal entirely. Kurt Savegnago

One other thing. If one can tolerate a larger size, the Sainsonic AP510 is a tunable 2m GPS tracker that would feasible for nosecone placement. The chipset would not be amenable to submit for records but it will store .kml files on a micro SD card.
It's size would likely limit it to 4 inch diameter and larger. If one needs nose weight, might as well use something that can do useful work I always say. Kurt

I am been in communication with Bales (the project guy) on this project. The default code uses only about 1/2 the available program space. It has the Arduino bootloader so there is alot of room for customization of the operation. For rocket recovery duty you can program it just to transmit at near ground altitudes on descent then shut off. This device (at least on 144.390) is not the device for high frequency data transmission.

PS. I ordered one.

jderimig said:

Free market research?

Click to expand...

Apparently so. Quite frankly, the best way to find out what the rocketry folks want is to fly with them at the 2-day meets... Saturday nights tend to lend themselves to nice "what if" sessions. That's how I developed the Quark and the WiFi Switch, and something else for next year. I don't know if these guys are into rocketry... I get the impression they're not.

jderimig said:

I am been in communication with Bales (the project guy) on this project. The default code uses only about 1/2 the available program space. It has the Arduino bootloader so there is alot of room for customization of the operation. For rocket recovery duty you can program it just to transmit at near ground altitudes on descent then shut off. This device (at least on 144.390) is not the device for high frequency data transmission.

PS. I ordered one.

Click to expand...

Ahhhhhhh,

That would be a stickler then for rocketry. If one can't tune it to anything other than 144.390 that would nix it for me. Plus you shut it off after it hits the ground via software, if it's buried under grass or underbrush, one can be screwed.
You want it transmitting so if you get to the last known packet site, you can pick up a "final fix" to lead you to the final resting place. When the thing is lying on the ground, it would be less likely to clog up a digipeater unless it was very close.

I flew an EggTimer TRS in a 38mm MD LOC tubed, fiberglassed laminated plywood fin can on a venerable J350 at MWP13. The railguide bound a bit on the rail and the thing still hit 8,567 feet. Drifted 1.66 miles and I didn't see a thing after ascent.
I received the last packet at 175' off the ground using a small duck antenna on the receiver. I removed the duck and used a 900mhz multi element Yagi for ground tracking. I got to 1/4 mile of the rocket and still couldn't see it when the Yagi pulled in a
new packet stream. Eventually, spotted it out in the open. I wouldn't have had the slightest idea where to look period. Polarity of the signal is of help too. If the rocket is stuck in a tree with the antenna up and down, vertical position of the Yagi will give the strongest signal. If lying flat on the ground, 90 degrees from your position, a horizontal position will yield the strongest signal. I experimented with that while I was still a ways away from the rocket ("on the fringe of reception") and I couldn't see it on the ground. It was lying flat with the antenna facing 45 degrees off being tangent. I could tell there was a difference in the lie by the behavior of the Yagi position of the strongest signal reception.

I will say one thing about the Tracksoar, it has its small size and 1 watt power going for it so if one has to use a less than optimal antenna, can still get reasonable performance. Kurt Savegnago

The Tracksoar default transmitter is 300mw.

I wasn't suggesting stop transmitting when on the ground, just set the update at a courtesy rate of 1 minute per update. While in the air use the Tracksoar pressure sensor to make sure to get some packets out while still in the air but reasonable close to the ground just to get some fixes on the APRS network.

Also interestingly, the Tracksoar has an integrated Baro sensor, some free output pins and healthy program memory left. It wouldn't be too hard to turn it into a dual-deploy altimeter in addition to the APRS transmitter........

jderimig said:

The Tracksoar default transmitter is 300mw.

I wasn't suggesting stop transmitting when on the ground, just set the update at a courtesy rate of 1 minute per update. While in the air use the Tracksoar pressure sensor to make sure to get some packets out while still in the air but reasonable close to the ground just to get some fixes on the APRS network.

Also interestingly, the Tracksoar has an integrated Baro sensor, some free output pins and healthy program memory left. It wouldn't be too hard to turn it into a dual-deploy altimeter in addition to the APRS transmitter........

Click to expand...

300mW is still decent. Kurt

Here's a frequency agile transmitter that can be used with the Tracksoar or Byonics Tiny Trac,

https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=134

A bit more expensive than I imagined it would be, but if you've got something really valuable to track in an area without cell coverage...:

https://www.tracksoar.com/product/tracksoar-ready-to-fly/

$195. "Please note that this is currently a pre-order and the estimated ship date is currently January 2016."

It's the smallest I've seen out there forsale. I wonder if one can connect it easily to a computer to reprogram? An optimal antenna for 2m is longer than for 70cm but the 300mW output will make up for less than ideal antenna solution.
Outside of the falconry tracker: https://marshallradio.com/north-american-falconry-products/gps-systems which has been flown in a rocket, the Altus Metrum Tele-GPS can fit in a 38mm nosecone and is $200.00. Not as small as
the Tracksoar or the falconry tracker.

It's really a plus if a person is trying to send a small, 38mm MD rocket to extreme altitudes to have an exact idea of the position. Those things have a tendency to disappear for the entire flight. Kurt Savegnago

ksaves2 said:

It's the smallest I've seen out there forsale. I wonder if one can connect it easily to a computer to reprogram?
It's really a plus if a person is trying to send a small, 38mm MD rocket to extreme altitudes to have an exact idea of the position. Those things have a tendency to disappear for the entire flight. Kurt Savegnago

Click to expand...

It has the Arduino bootloader on it and runs Arduino code. So yes its fairly easy to connect and use the Arduino IDE to program.