grouch
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Fantastic thread Ken! Congrats on the L2, done in style for sure.
Hangar 11 4" X-15 Build
- Thread starter KenECoyote
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While the instructions didn't mention it, I decided to add wood glue at this point to strengthen the bond with the wings and fins (I'm pretty sure it's not needed, but I did it anyway since it added very little weight while adding more assurance).
The instructions note to check the fit and once happy, wash the wraps with warm soapy water, dry, sand the inside lightly and then clean off the sanding dust with a tack cloth. I decide to first sand the inside and then wash with soapy water to avoid the extra step of removing the dust.
Next the directions imply that you should then glue the wraps on and use rubber bands and tape. I thought about this and decided it would be better for me to glue one side on first, let dry, then the other. After all, I had a center line, so I know where the wraps go and how they fit.
So while the instructions didn't note it, I first lightly sanded the BT, figuring it would be a better bond for the epoxy:
Then I applied the West Fast Epoxy to the right wrap with an epoxy brush, stuck on to the BT, then used bungee cords to hold everything snug. I repeatedly held or checked the parts over the next hour+. Excuse the mess...at this point I was rushing due to trying to make the last launch at my club, so neatness is a casualty.)
Here is the right wrap glued on:
The instructions note to check the fit and once happy, wash the wraps with warm soapy water, dry, sand the inside lightly and then clean off the sanding dust with a tack cloth. I decide to first sand the inside and then wash with soapy water to avoid the extra step of removing the dust.
Next the directions imply that you should then glue the wraps on and use rubber bands and tape. I thought about this and decided it would be better for me to glue one side on first, let dry, then the other. After all, I had a center line, so I know where the wraps go and how they fit.
So while the instructions didn't note it, I first lightly sanded the BT, figuring it would be a better bond for the epoxy:
Then I applied the West Fast Epoxy to the right wrap with an epoxy brush, stuck on to the BT, then used bungee cords to hold everything snug. I repeatedly held or checked the parts over the next hour+. Excuse the mess...at this point I was rushing due to trying to make the last launch at my club, so neatness is a casualty.)
Here is the right wrap glued on:
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So once the right wrap was nice and glued on to the rocket, I started on the left wrap.
For the rear fin, the same was done as earlier, so that was a cinch.
Now do you guys remember my question about anyone guessing of a good way to mark and measure for the wings given what you see?
The key is the position of the wings on the rocket/bt...they are in the center! So given that the wraps are more round in the front and just a bit angled near the back wing edge, all it takes is to measure the wrap where the wings go, find the middle, mark and cut! I was kicking myself later for not seeing that earlier and trying all the string and measuring nonsense. I did this for the left wrap and it fit perfectly.
Sorry...don't have much in terms of pics here, but here is the left wrap with rear fin slot cut:
The right wrap looked great at first, but in the end I had to cut about 1/8" off the lower edge of the slot since it was pushing the wrap on that side a bit. Left a bigger gap on top, but I figured I can deal with that later and I'd rather have a good fin fit.
For the rear fin, the same was done as earlier, so that was a cinch.
Now do you guys remember my question about anyone guessing of a good way to mark and measure for the wings given what you see?
The key is the position of the wings on the rocket/bt...they are in the center! So given that the wraps are more round in the front and just a bit angled near the back wing edge, all it takes is to measure the wrap where the wings go, find the middle, mark and cut! I was kicking myself later for not seeing that earlier and trying all the string and measuring nonsense. I did this for the left wrap and it fit perfectly.
Sorry...don't have much in terms of pics here, but here is the left wrap with rear fin slot cut:
The right wrap looked great at first, but in the end I had to cut about 1/8" off the lower edge of the slot since it was pushing the wrap on that side a bit. Left a bigger gap on top, but I figured I can deal with that later and I'd rather have a good fin fit.
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So after I cut the left wrap, it fit perfectly on, so I glued it on as well. I used bungee cords (lots of them) and tape as well as wood dowels since the left wrap seemed to be lifting a bit on the edges, but that's understandable given that it's a large plastic molded piece...the right one didn't have this issue. The wood dowel basically serves to have a straight line of downward pressure on the edge of the wrap which was lifting up.
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The instructions note "Try to keep the seam on the top and bottom of the wrap as small as possible. There is no overlap. Flush or a small gap is best. We fill the gap before prime and paint." The wraps are extremely well designed (or I was very lucky) since there was little or no gap at all and the wraps were very tight on the bt. I didn't do any trimming of the mating edges at all.
Here is the wrap after the epoxy dried...check out that "seam"!
Here's a pic of the front end after trimming off the extra front tubing; IMHO the wraps were glued on perfectly...look at the layer bonded on!
Here is the wrap after the epoxy dried...check out that "seam"!
Here's a pic of the front end after trimming off the extra front tubing; IMHO the wraps were glued on perfectly...look at the layer bonded on!
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At this point it should be "Step 8 Attach the Nose Cone"; however I wanted to build this part different than instructed, so I skipped to "Step 9 (Motor Tube & Tail Cone)". The instructions tell you to insert the motor tube in and such; however I had already earlier glued it in, so all I had to do now was put on the tail cone, mark the motor tube for cutting, cut, then glue on the tail cone.
This part was fairly smooth and the only tricky part was to add epoxy to the part where the tail cone meets the shroud (which means standing it tail up) while also having epoxy on the motor tube where it exits/ends at the tail cone. I first used 6 minute epoxy and applied it to the motor tube end (after it was cut and where the narrow part of the tail cone mates up), then I added West epoxy to the back CR and the inside base of the tail cone...this way the faster epoxy on the motor tube end is thicker and won't run down the motor tube (allowing that end to bond) while the slower epoxy is pooled down where the tail cone meets the CR, creating a very solid bond.
This part was fairly smooth and the only tricky part was to add epoxy to the part where the tail cone meets the shroud (which means standing it tail up) while also having epoxy on the motor tube where it exits/ends at the tail cone. I first used 6 minute epoxy and applied it to the motor tube end (after it was cut and where the narrow part of the tail cone mates up), then I added West epoxy to the back CR and the inside base of the tail cone...this way the faster epoxy on the motor tube end is thicker and won't run down the motor tube (allowing that end to bond) while the slower epoxy is pooled down where the tail cone meets the CR, creating a very solid bond.
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At this point I stopped following the instructions since I wanted to make this dual deploy capable. I had actually asked Bobby about dual deploy on this and he noted that it wouldn't work* and the way to do it was to use a "Defy Gravity" device, which is a chute restraint device similar to a Tender Descender; however it was no longer made (I actually did find one later though).
Well, I had experience with the Punisher's HED (chute in the nose cone with the AV bay below that), so I thought this was a good candidate for the same given the large nose...and I tend to like doing things differently. :wink:
I'll write up the DD part next, but it is a lot of steps and was more challenging than I had anticipated for different reasons.
More to come...
op:
*At this point, I believe Bobby hadn't heard of HED, so he was referencing traditional DD, where you would need a bay for the main chute and in this case, it wouldn't work with the X-15 due to lack of space.
Well, I had experience with the Punisher's HED (chute in the nose cone with the AV bay below that), so I thought this was a good candidate for the same given the large nose...and I tend to like doing things differently. :wink:
I'll write up the DD part next, but it is a lot of steps and was more challenging than I had anticipated for different reasons.
More to come...
op:*At this point, I believe Bobby hadn't heard of HED, so he was referencing traditional DD, where you would need a bay for the main chute and in this case, it wouldn't work with the X-15 due to lack of space.
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Hey Kruegon,
Sorry! I missed your post from a while ago (happens when in the thick of writing up the build steps). When you purchase the kit, it provides a Rocksim file and it has a few motors simmed out listed: I287; J528; I435; J350 (can't recall if I added this last one myself). If built well, I think you can go as big as a Loki 38mm/1200 case and a K1127 motor (I'm planning on doing so next year). So basically the 287+ newton range should be good. My first flight was with J425 and it was great on that motor. Of note though is that my builds seem to be on the heavy side. :blush:
Damn that bird turned out beautiful, great work and congrats on your certification.
BTB (Back To Building!)
So at this point I took a few minutes to assess the situation. I could very well build this as instructed for regular single deploy, test it on an I motor (which gets it to about 1200'), then stick a J motor in it to try to get my L2 (about 2400'). However I just knew I could get the DD working and that would make this rocket better IMHO since the electronics and chute forward would help reduce the amount of nose weight required - which I heard may be 2-3 lbs!
Besides, CrazyOB often tells me "go big or go home!". :wink:
So I got out the pieces to assess what I could do. At this point I had about 1 week to do it before the club's last launch. That meant to me that I had to use the parts I had and that ordered parts may not get to me in time. Luckily I had a 4" Madcow AV bay on hand. I also had a 4" FG bay I got from the yard sale, but that one didn't seem right for this.
Here are the parts. Note that the nose cone is actually two pieces...the nose itself and a "couple" which has a narrow portion which fits into the nose and a wider portion made to fit into the bt (Madcow AV bay also shown):
So at this point I took a few minutes to assess the situation. I could very well build this as instructed for regular single deploy, test it on an I motor (which gets it to about 1200'), then stick a J motor in it to try to get my L2 (about 2400'). However I just knew I could get the DD working and that would make this rocket better IMHO since the electronics and chute forward would help reduce the amount of nose weight required - which I heard may be 2-3 lbs!
Besides, CrazyOB often tells me "go big or go home!". :wink:
So I got out the pieces to assess what I could do. At this point I had about 1 week to do it before the club's last launch. That meant to me that I had to use the parts I had and that ordered parts may not get to me in time. Luckily I had a 4" Madcow AV bay on hand. I also had a 4" FG bay I got from the yard sale, but that one didn't seem right for this.
Here are the parts. Note that the nose cone is actually two pieces...the nose itself and a "couple" which has a narrow portion which fits into the nose and a wider portion made to fit into the bt (Madcow AV bay also shown):
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Complicating things was that the nose cone itself was actually constructed of a top and bottom half (that's how they do it!) which are glued together and then the joint is also reinforced with a strip of ABS on both of the seams on the inside. This ABS strip ends a few inches from the edge so that you can glue on the couple.
This strip was a bit of a problem since both sides weren't even (I used a silver marker to mark the longer strip where the other stops). Additionally, they stop short of the edge, but the couple when glued on would provide additional strengthening for the part without the ABS strip. However if I don't glue on the couple, then the nose cone may be weaker and not ideal to have ejection right there where the force can split the nose.
I thought about leaving out the couple, but in the end, I had to use it since the Madcow AV bay would not fit into the nose (the ID of the nose is maybe 3/16" smaller than the ID of the bt and it gets narrower too.
This strip was a bit of a problem since both sides weren't even (I used a silver marker to mark the longer strip where the other stops). Additionally, they stop short of the edge, but the couple when glued on would provide additional strengthening for the part without the ABS strip. However if I don't glue on the couple, then the nose cone may be weaker and not ideal to have ejection right there where the force can split the nose.
I thought about leaving out the couple, but in the end, I had to use it since the Madcow AV bay would not fit into the nose (the ID of the nose is maybe 3/16" smaller than the ID of the bt and it gets narrower too.
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Now while I had the Madcow AV bay on hand, it actually isn't ideal for this since it's a different material than the bt (heavy wall cardboard vs. phenolic). I had placed an order for phenolic couplers; however something went wrong and my order never got filled, so I had to use the cardboard one. Things would've worked better with a phenolic tube bay and I'll be eventually swapping it since having dissimilar materials for a bay aren't ideal - they may each react differently to temperature changes and this can mean sticking or getting stuck. This happened to my friend's beautiful half-scale Patriot recently and it lawn darted after many successful flights...he said it was likely due to cold making the av bay stick since the bt was quantum tubing and the bay was cardboard (or phenolic...I can't recall specifically).
Even though the Madcow AV bay is made for 4" rockets, the MC cardboard rockets are thin wall while phenolic is thicker, so I had to sand down the heavy wall av bay in order for it to fit the bt. So first thing to make sure this works is to fit the av bay to the bt...
While sanding I made a lot of checks to make sure I wasn't taking off too much and also because I wanted to keep the bay as thick as possible so it would be strong enough.
I considered sanding the top more to fit the nose cone; however in the end, I decided that would be taking too much off the bay to be safe and so that idea was scrapped.
Even though the Madcow AV bay is made for 4" rockets, the MC cardboard rockets are thin wall while phenolic is thicker, so I had to sand down the heavy wall av bay in order for it to fit the bt. So first thing to make sure this works is to fit the av bay to the bt...
While sanding I made a lot of checks to make sure I wasn't taking off too much and also because I wanted to keep the bay as thick as possible so it would be strong enough.
I considered sanding the top more to fit the nose cone; however in the end, I decided that would be taking too much off the bay to be safe and so that idea was scrapped.
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Great flight Ken. Way to do L2 in style.
So now that I decided against having the top portion of the bay inserted into the nose, what do I do? I decided I had to go with the couple.
I first considered the regular smaller end inserted in as usual, but a reduced diameter av bay sounds like trouble when you're trying to do ejection charges...best would be as close/tight a fit as you can while still being smooth. I flipped the couple around and found that the wider bottom fit very well into the bottom of the nose, so I pulled out the X-acto saw and...
(check out the thick reinforcing band in the couple!)
Here I tried to plan for dual setup and also used for space planning...
I first considered the regular smaller end inserted in as usual, but a reduced diameter av bay sounds like trouble when you're trying to do ejection charges...best would be as close/tight a fit as you can while still being smooth. I flipped the couple around and found that the wider bottom fit very well into the bottom of the nose, so I pulled out the X-acto saw and...
(check out the thick reinforcing band in the couple!)
Here I tried to plan for dual setup and also used for space planning...
Now that I was committed, I first trimmed off the extra bt extending out of the shroud and also cut the shroud end even.
Looks kind of like a patient before plastic surgery... "Uh...is there any hope for me doc?" "Yes...we can cut off your ugly face!!!"
"BAM!"
BTW - I can't recall why I have that batch of epoxy sitting there.
Looks kind of like a patient before plastic surgery... "Uh...is there any hope for me doc?" "Yes...we can cut off your ugly face!!!"
"BAM!"
BTW - I can't recall why I have that batch of epoxy sitting there.
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Now that the bay wouldn't be extending into the nose, i cut the bay down. I left as much of the bottom as I felt would be a good fit and not too long...I ended up with a 6" bay, allowing 1.25" for the vent band.
It's cutting time!
It's cutting time!
Then I masked off 1.25" of the forward section of the bt and cut that off as a vent band.
Back to the couple interior design planning.
Then more cutting! I used a scroll saw to cut the bottom out and left the middle band since it was reinforced and would be great to use for the all thread rods and wing nuts. Here's the cut couple inserted into the nose cone to check for fit.
Then after several checks and test fits, I epoxied it down to the bay top bulk plate. Looking good!
Then more cutting! I used a scroll saw to cut the bottom out and left the middle band since it was reinforced and would be great to use for the all thread rods and wing nuts. Here's the cut couple inserted into the nose cone to check for fit.
Then after several checks and test fits, I epoxied it down to the bay top bulk plate. Looking good!
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In between the work with the bay couple, I also went back to the nose cone and ground down the extra long glued interior strip since it was very thick and pushing against part of the couple. I then got out some of the extra cut scrap from the body wrap and used the cool "melty effect" ABS glue to reinforce the lower part of the nose cone where the strips didn't extend down to. The ABS glue really melted the strip down well and provided a very nice joint on the inside...almost like a weld bead.
Low-tech dual-purpose clamp:
When all was dried, I did a test fit and it looked good!
Fit is nice and flush; however notice how the nose is a smaller diameter than the bt with wrap glued on. I may later sand this down so there's a smoother transition.
Low-tech dual-purpose clamp:
When all was dried, I did a test fit and it looked good!
Fit is nice and flush; however notice how the nose is a smaller diameter than the bt with wrap glued on. I may later sand this down so there's a smoother transition.
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Now I recall what the batch of epoxy was for!
In between working on the AV bay, I was working on setting up the nose. You've seen the strip and seam fix, but now I had to install in a cord anchor as well as weight the nose. I had earlier heard reports of as much as 2-3 pounds of nose weight required; however Rocksim calcs showed about 1.5 lbs should be added and I figured that some of that weight can be the nose hardware, cord and chute as well as the AV bay being forward, so I estimated that 1 lb would be good.
I then added 1lb of bb's into a bag and put it into the nose as well as the rest of the items to be included in flight. Then I found out the weight of the longest J motor I'd likely be using and added similar weight to the motor casing and inserted that. I checked the balance and the setup seemed fine. My calcs (confirmed by a buddy) showed CG is just behind where the leading edge of the wings meet the body.
So now that I knew how much weight to add to the nose, I went about test-fitting the setup. I planned on using all-thread with a coupler to attach on an eyebolt.
I estimated about how short I can have the all-thread (since a long one would take up good chute/forward space) while also making sure it was long enough to be above the epoxied bb's and be reachable. By using an all-thread coupler, I can always extend it longer with more all-thread sections and couplers if I wanted to later for something else.
Here are the parts including nuts I added to the bottom of the all-thread to help anchor it into the epoxy. I've used masking tape to mark where to cut the all-thread.
i also screwed the all-thread into the forward tip of the nose and also masked off the eyebolt since I didn't want epoxy all over it. I then screwed on the coupler and eyebolt with some red thread lock added.
In between working on the AV bay, I was working on setting up the nose. You've seen the strip and seam fix, but now I had to install in a cord anchor as well as weight the nose. I had earlier heard reports of as much as 2-3 pounds of nose weight required; however Rocksim calcs showed about 1.5 lbs should be added and I figured that some of that weight can be the nose hardware, cord and chute as well as the AV bay being forward, so I estimated that 1 lb would be good.
I then added 1lb of bb's into a bag and put it into the nose as well as the rest of the items to be included in flight. Then I found out the weight of the longest J motor I'd likely be using and added similar weight to the motor casing and inserted that. I checked the balance and the setup seemed fine. My calcs (confirmed by a buddy) showed CG is just behind where the leading edge of the wings meet the body.
So now that I knew how much weight to add to the nose, I went about test-fitting the setup. I planned on using all-thread with a coupler to attach on an eyebolt.
I estimated about how short I can have the all-thread (since a long one would take up good chute/forward space) while also making sure it was long enough to be above the epoxied bb's and be reachable. By using an all-thread coupler, I can always extend it longer with more all-thread sections and couplers if I wanted to later for something else.
Here are the parts including nuts I added to the bottom of the all-thread to help anchor it into the epoxy. I've used masking tape to mark where to cut the all-thread.
i also screwed the all-thread into the forward tip of the nose and also masked off the eyebolt since I didn't want epoxy all over it. I then screwed on the coupler and eyebolt with some red thread lock added.
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BTW - One pound of bb's plus the epoxy and hardware makes the nose quite hefty! I can imagine that 2-3 lbs would make it like a brick!
Here I started drilling through the sides of the nose tip so i can put in screws to serve as cross-anchoring of the epoxied bb's so they won't be likely to come loose out of the nose. I drilled it so that the screws would be just over the nuts on the all-thread to help keep the all-thread down as well.
I used two standard wood decking screws...
...and then cut off the ends with a Dremel heavy duty cut-off disc and then ground down any extra parts sticking out with the edge of the Dremel cut-off disc (the round side edge grinds the metal screw down below the surface, which is good since you don't want the screw tearing up any sanding paper/blocks you will use later).
Epoxy & bb "blurry slurry" pic:
Here I started drilling through the sides of the nose tip so i can put in screws to serve as cross-anchoring of the epoxied bb's so they won't be likely to come loose out of the nose. I drilled it so that the screws would be just over the nuts on the all-thread to help keep the all-thread down as well.
I used two standard wood decking screws...
...and then cut off the ends with a Dremel heavy duty cut-off disc and then ground down any extra parts sticking out with the edge of the Dremel cut-off disc (the round side edge grinds the metal screw down below the surface, which is good since you don't want the screw tearing up any sanding paper/blocks you will use later).
Epoxy & bb "blurry slurry" pic:
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Wow. This is awesome. Look forward to hearing about the flight!
Thanks! Check out Posts 61 & 70 for the first flight report...I'll likely move the video and pics to the end when I get the write up caught up to that part.
BTW - Great avatar pic! I've been trying to get my mitts on one of those for a while now!
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That's what I get for posting when I should have been asleep! I absolutely missed those entries and only focused on the build of the Hanger 11. That is quite impressive!
Thanks! No worries at all...I think all of us have missed parts of a thread before.
I sometimes miss things mentioned earlier on the same page!
Anyone know what happened to hanger 11 company?
Nice work!!! Can you even buy this kit anymore? Awhile back I checked the website and as I recall it was done, so I'm assuming that he's no longer in business??
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