New Estes PSII - Panavia

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Nice!

Looks to be a Partizon's NC, two lengths of body tube (one shorter than the other) [EDIT] that was based on a photograph of the parts. John Boren clears that up in a later post. [/EDIT], and Argent fins.



009715_main.jpg


Yeah, I'd build that!
 
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I like it! Estes has a way of draining me of money. Damn it.
 
Estes Cherokee in disguise :)

It is essentially the same thing as the PSII-based Cherokee upscale I just built, save for the fins (which would be larger on the Cherokee):
22329787838_290a4aec07_b.jpg


Basically, take this new kit and make new fins and you've got an upscale K-47 Cherokee...
 
I'm sure that the same is true for the Scion & Sahara. They're just reshuffling existing parts, not adding anything new to the mix.
 
I'm sure that the same is true for the Scion & Sahara. They're just reshuffling existing parts, not adding anything new to the mix.

Either way, I'm fine with it. I have at least one of each of the PS II kits and parts to build two more Leviathan's. At least they're giving us some variety.
 
I gotta ask ... SPEV?

Spare Parts Elimination Vehicle. Designed from spare/overstock parts to get rid of them. The original presented here: https://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/k-59.htm

The most recent Estes PSII builder kits (Scion/Sahara) are speculated to be SPEVs, as they're really NOTHING you couldn't do with buying the parts yourself, other than the wood that they don't offer separately.

Usually done to clear parts of discontinued models, thus fueling the speculation (along with favorites like the Leviathan disappearing completely from their web site) that they're closing the door on anything that can't fly on THEIR motors.

At the rate that their E motors are CATOing and developing a very bad reputation, won't be many of those flying, either.
 
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At the rate that their E motors are CATOing and developing a very bad reputation, won't be many of those flying, either.

Which Estes E motor are you referring too?

John Boren
 
Which Estes E motor are you referring too?

John Boren

This is my first summer back as a BAR, and I've seen it all summer long in different locations. At least a dozen, in various venues and rockets. Mostly E9s. Nothing new, it's been reported here and on other forums many times. Happens often enough that I know many folks that have flat out sworn off of 'em completely, and resigned mid power to being something SU or reloadable and burning AP in stead of BP.

I personally have had two different lots of E9s CATO in rockets. One pack CATO'd BOTH motors. That cured ME of any BP motors over a D.

Once is funny, in a morbid sort of way, but when you blow up two rockets, with two different lots of the same motor, back to back on the same day, it's a damn Greek tragedy!

I have some background in rockets from my youth, and imagine my surprise. I've seen newbies who, at one time would have made the step to Estes PSII builders kits, but now since the Es are CATO crap shoots, they're going to non-Estes products and more reliable (non-BP) and energetic non-Estes motors.

Not saying that AP motors don't CATO, but certainly not with the impact that a newbie rocketeer stepping into 29mm E and F motors is gonna think is a 'sure bet' with BP motors. Especially when he has only the skills and experience necessary to buy and assemble an E2X MPR kit.

Not playing the blame game, just seeing it as a shame of a missed opportunity, since BP above a certain level isn't nearly as energy dense nor as reliable as AP motors. Looks like MPR is here to stay as a definate niche market and gateway to HPR, and if Estes aces themselves out of the builder market, it would be a loss to the rocketry community of their resources and innovation. Maybe it just isn't a place where Estes wants to be?

I've seen other companies do the same (Games Workshop, anyone?), and it's a net loss for the company and a net gain for the little guy. What that means for everyone else remains to shake out.
 
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I've not seen or heard of many 29mm E16 CATO's out there. I will have to check into this. If the 29mm E16's are CATOing then the 29mm F15 motors should be doing the same.


John Boren
 
This is my first summer back as a BAR, and I've seen it all summer long in different locations. ...

It would really help us all if these incidents are reported to Estes asap.

Contacting Estes for all model rocket related issues.

By Phone : (719) 372-6565

By Mail : PO Box 227, Penrose, CO 81240-0227

Electronically : Email us at [email protected].

Business Hours

Monday through Friday 7:30 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. MST



In addition, the NAR has a process to collect malfunctioning engine information: https://www.motorcato.org/ Admittedly, this reporting probably isn't done much outside of club launches but at least now you know about it. :)


Venting on internet forums is a time-honored tradition that I wouldn't dream of attempting to stop; besides not venting can be a health risk. Reporting occurrences to the folks who can do something about it is the way to go IMHO. If that's been done in these cases then... never mind :eek: !
 
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It would really help us all if these incidents are reported to Estes asap.

Contacting Estes for all model rocket related issues.

By Phone : (719) 372-6565

By Mail : PO Box 227, Penrose, CO 81240-0227

Electronically : Email us at [email protected].

Business Hours

Monday through Friday 7:30 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. MST



In addition, the NAR has a process to collect malfunctioning engine information: https://www.motorcato.org/ Admittedly, this reporting probably isn't done much outside of club launches but at least now you know about it. :)


Venting on internet forums is a time-honored tradition that I wouldn't dream of attempting to stop; besides not venting can be a health risk. Reporting occurrences to the folks who can do something about it is the way to go IMHO. If that's been done in these cases then... never mind :eek: !

Lest I be mischaracterized as an internet troll, anywhere in my posts did I say that I had NOT reported them? For my personal CATO's I did. Both places. Can't answer for the other folks, I'm not the boss of them.

But really, what darn good does getting NEW motors of the same type do? Goody, new grenades! :facepalm:

Although I do admit the credit on the web store as compensation for my two scratch builds that turned into confetti was nice enough to supply me with an Argent and a Partizon at clearance rates.
 
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Well, since John has been watching this thread, I'll go ahead and ask. No harm in asking, right? Here goes...John, I'm sure you've noticed from being on here that many of us really like the PSII builder kits. With the Leviathan missing from the website, the constant deeply cut prices of the other builder kits, and what appears to be 3 different SPEV's now, are we looking at the end of the PSII builder kits? I'm hoping not, because I love being able to build them my way and seeing how high and fast I can push them. Much different than an E2X kit, in my opinion.
 
Lest I be mischaracterized as an internet troll, anywhere in my posts did I say that I had NOT reported them? For my personal CATO's I did. Both places. Can't answer for the other folks, I'm not the boss of them.

No worries, I didn't assume one way or the other. Some people don't go back to the manufacturer and a whole lot of people don't know about the MESS process. Keep Calm... and keep on Venting ! :)

But really, what darn good does getting NEW motors of the same type do? Goody, new grenades! :facepalm:

So I take it you haven't tried the new motors yet ? Can you see the date code thru the packaging ? There are multiple threads here with evidence showing some CATO-prone lots:

E9 - 06 28 11 and 08 18 11

E12 - 08 18 11


Estes_F15-6.jpg

Here is a year+ old post from NAR S&T just to add some perspective: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?62604-Anatomy-of-an-E9-CATO&p=664482#post664482



Although I do admit the credit on the web store as compensation for my two scratch builds that turned into confetti was nice enough to supply me with an Argent and a Partizon at clearance rates.

Estes Customer Service always does their best to make things right. My own E12 issue got me a replacement V2... and another pack of E12's. :grin:
 
I have had two E9-6s from a particular date code CATO. Estes has replaced them and, in the most recent case, the model that was gutted by the CATO. I have flown quite a few E12s and E16s and have had no issues, nor have I seen anyone else have issues with them.

I'll have to check when I get home, but I think they were the August 2011 date code above....
 
No worries, I didn't assume one way or the other. Some people don't go back to the manufacturer and a whole lot of people don't know about the MESS process. Keep Calm... and keep on Venting ! :)



So I take it you haven't tried the new motors yet ? Can you see the date code thru the packaging ? There are multiple threads here with evidence showing some CATO-prone lots:

E9 - 06 28 11 and 08 18 11

E12 - 08 18 11


View attachment 275037

Here is a year+ old post from NAR S&T just to add some perspective: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?62604-Anatomy-of-an-E9-CATO&p=664482#post664482





Estes Customer Service always does their best to make things right. My own E12 issue got me a replacement V2... and another pack of E12's. :grin:

My current lot is 09 15 14, and I've flown 1 so far. 5 to go. Every one is going in the same rocket, a Pemberton Kraken.

More to the point of Estes getting out of the builder market: I've seen the PSII Builder series on Estes BP motors. Not impressed.

Prediction, you saw it here first:

If John responds that they're winding down and closing out PSII Builder rockets, it's gonna set off a buying frenzy!
 
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Just to show how much this resembles a 2.5" Estes Cherokee D, Here's the Panavia, my Cherokee D (29mm Powered)(long version), and EXPjawa's versions in one post.


009715_main.jpg
22329787838_290a4aec07_b.jpg


[EDIT] The following was corrected:
Note, EXPjawa's and mine have fins that were upscaled from the Cherokee D (and about 7" at the root), whereas the Panavia apparently uses stock Argent fins.
 
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More to the point of Estes getting out of the builder market: I've seen the PSII Builder series on Estes BP motors. Not impressed.

That's too bad. I was thinking about sending my Sahara up on an Estes 29mm BP motor...
 
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