E3M ~ 4.5" O motor project

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Just for grins I just ran an example in RasAero. From 58Kft a 4.5" 30# rocket came in at just under 400fps max speed. Not all that fast, really. Of course, YMMV, but this isn't near mach. It would have to be much higher.

Drop it to 20# empty and at 73Kft it reaches just under 500fps max.

Mach is around 1100fps at sea level. The rocket would need a bigger motor than the O I used in the sim (because it was handy).

Now put a 5" P to 160Kft and it comes down at M2.5 max, but only at high altitude. It slows down after that.

Gerald
 
I played with the flight info for laughs and giggles as well. I use RASAero 2 to obtain the CD versus velocity for the rocket shape. I didn't bother to run a flight sim as there is not enough information on the weight of the rocket or the thrust curve of the motor, and as there appears to have been a motor failure during the flight, the sim wouldn't be that useful to determine the ground impact velocity, so I made a generic spreadsheet to calculate the terminal velocity of any rocket at any altitude if you know the CD, the mass, the diameter, and the atmospheric density.

View attachment e3m.xlsx

RASAero predicts a Cd of 0.442 (which I thought was low) for a rocket with an OD = 4.5", a 5:1 TA NC, and 3 swept fins with 30 sq in area each with a hexagonal foiling as shown in the photos in the thread. The 6' long x 4.5" diameter x 0.25" nominal wall weighs just under 24 pounds, I bestimated the fins 2 0.5 pounds and the NC @ 1 pound. Considering what else goes in the rocket, I bestimated a burnout weight of 32 pounds, and with a 16 sq.in. cross-section obtain a 2 pound/sq.in. sectional density. Having spent some time at White Sands doing laser shoot down missile testing and commuting from Las Cruces daily, I bestimated the launch site altitude to be ~5000' msl and used the aerospaceweb.org atmospheric calculator to obtain the atmospheric parameters for my spreadsheet, and by looking at clothing worn by Manny and company in the launch video, bestimated the launch temperature was between 40F to 60F. The standard atmosphere temperature for 5000' msl is 41F so I did not bother with an offset however raising the temperature would also increase the sound speed so I didn't.

For the rocket I bestimated, the ground impact velocity was approximately 810' fps or Mach 0.73, not even transonic. Playing with the spreadsheet, you would need a rocket weight of 60 pounds (sectional density of 3.75 psi) to impact the ground at Mach 1. The bestimated rocket drops thru Mach 1 ~24 kft MSL which is ~19 kft AGL. As the speed of sound is ~1100 fps, the closest sonic boom signature would arrive on the closest point on the ground ~19/1.1=17.3 seconds after the rocket became sonic the location would be near the point of impact. If the launch crew was 3 miles away from the point of impact the slant distance from the supersonic rocket would be the sqrt(19^2+15.8^2)=24.7 kft on the slant with a (24.7/1.1)=22.5 second acoustic delay.

The transit time of the rocket from the sonic point to ground impact is ~16.5 seconds. From the descriptions in this post, and the fact that the rocket was not found, I have to conclude the rocket impacted at a rather distant location from the launcher. For an average male adult standing on a flat surface, the horizon distance is ~3 miles or ~15.8/1.1= 14.4 seconds away acoustically. If the point of impact was visible but distant from the launch crew, a boom heard near the time of impact could not be due to the impacting rocket, but rather the sonic signature of the rocket at altitude.

Play around with the spreadsheet if you don't believe the physics.

Bob
 
I accidently closed the thread after I edited the above post before I went to the grocery store. Sorry about that folks. The reply and admin close thread buttons are next to each other and I must have accidently pressed the close thread button.

Thanks John for letting me know.

Bob
 
This matches what I calculated if Cd is changed to 0.6 and air density is sea level 1.5 kg/m3. Bob's atmospheric estimate is likely more accurate, seems like the Cd is low. In any case though, significantly below Mach regardless of conditions.
 
I think we beat the Mach question into the ground (pun intended), so let's move on.

There's still the question of why the two big motors made from the same propellant mix session both blew their a$$es off.:blush:
 
Maybe they added some of those great New Mexican chilies to the propellant mix. Reminds me of a little no-name hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant in Old Town where the food was good but a bit too hot.....:blush:

Not that far from the best restaurant in Las Cruces, the dining room at Meson de Mesilla. https://mesondemesilla.com/ A dozen years ago they didn't have a menu, just a blackboard with 4 or 5 entrees, all of which were to die for.....

Bob
 
Oh man that sounds delicious. I need to take a cruise through that part of the country.
 
I think we beat the Mach question into the ground (pun intended), so let's move on.

There's still the question of why the two big motors made from the same propellant mix session both blew their a$$es off.:blush:

Graphite nozzle extensions. Done.
 
I couldn't care less about how fast the rocket "crashed".....I am still waiting for some good pictures of "whatever" was recovered. I have never seen so much discussion about the hypothetical speed that a rocket that hasn't been recovered, considered a "success" and that crashed into the desert floor?!?!??

Are there no more pictures???

What's the saying? "Pictures, or it never happened"


Paging Heller, how about some pictures from you?!? .........anyone......pictures???
 
I'm almost positive they gave up on TRF, so don't hold your breath.

Heller's puked the nozzle exit cone and torched the pin ring/ boat tail. 18k apogee with nominal recovery.

The jury is still out on Manny's. Nothing recovered, a few theories are out there. My guess is it shed a few pounds of composites on the ascent.
 
A second thought...

I'd be really interested to see some pictures on how the nosecone attached to the fore end of the rocket. I am designing my Mudrock project for this year that utilizes a tapered aluminum coupler to engage the ID of the conical FWFG nosecone. This is relatively easy to do with a conical nose and I hope it proves to be a viable design.
 
Maybe they added some of those great New Mexican chilies to the propellant mix. Reminds me of a little no-name hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant in Old Town where the food was good but a bit too hot.....:blush:

Not that far from the best restaurant in Las Cruces, the dining room at Meson de Mesilla. https://mesondemesilla.com/ A dozen years ago they didn't have a menu, just a blackboard with 4 or 5 entrees, all of which were to die for.....

Bob

Meson de Mesilla has had several owners over the past 10 years. Good/bad/indifferent. They were covered on an episode of a national show at one point. I've been there twice, but not recently.

There are dozens over other good restaurants here in the Las Cruces area. The out-of-towners that come to launch rockets get their fill of Mexican food. Some love it and others rather go to McDonalds. ;-)

Our 75KAGL (80K MSL) waiver is a little smaller than the 145K we had. Also, the launch site is minimum "casual use" access under local BLM restrictions, and is now part of the "Desert Peaks National Monument". Our club cannot schedule regular events open to the public. All launches are invitational, arranged ahead, and limited to about 10 people and 5 cars.
 
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I couldn't care less about how fast the rocket "crashed".....I am still waiting for some good pictures of "whatever" was recovered. I have never seen so much discussion about the hypothetical speed that a rocket that hasn't been recovered, considered a "success" and that crashed into the desert floor?!?!??

Are there no more pictures???

What's the saying? "Pictures, or it never happened"


Paging Heller, how about some pictures from you?!? .........anyone......pictures???

Pictures or it never happened is a really silly expression. Some of us do not take pictures of much- prefer to live our lives versus taking pictures/videos of everything.

If this rocket buried itself what is there to take pictures of? There is the lift off video-isn't that enough?
 
Pictures or it never happened is a really silly expression. Some of us do not take pictures of much- prefer to live our lives versus taking pictures/videos of everything.

If this rocket buried itself what is there to take pictures of? There is the lift off video-isn't that enough?

It's a silly expression....and I'm a silly person....and I can accept that. I am just giving manny crap. As far as pictures of the crash site, yes I am interested in seeing if and if the hole that was made has fin marks.....and how many. If Manny were reading this, he would know I am only giving him (a well deserved) hard time.
 
I'm still a bit pissy that they wouldn't tell me where/when the launches were happening. Waaa, poor me!

OK, since internet posts are so often mis-understood - I'M BEING SILLY! I'm just joking!!! I'm NOT genuinely mad at anyone, and I fully respect their reasoning for keeping it a secret. They had rules to adhere to, and they did so. I'm just sitting on my little pity-potty moaning and complaining. Don't you feel sorry for me?

In fact, I did some sleuthing and pretty much figured out the "where" ahead of time. I was initially thinking of heading out that way, sitting off a "safe distance" away, and watching the launches. Out of respect for their wishes, I didn't push to figure out the "when" and decided to stay away. No biggie.

Still, would have been cool to see, and I was rooting for success to "the boys". Can't wait to hear more details and reports.

s6
 

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